Diablo® III

10 APOC vs 20 APOC, THAT is the question?

my build seems to b working fine. i just bought this source after i tested a low dps one. i do hear the i dont have enough arcane power. it realy doesnt seem to matter. a split second after i hear that its full again. gained hp dps and protect. im happy with that. still i will keep my old apoc force rdy in bank beacuse it is the bees knees!
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I haven't done any testing but what I gather from all the posts is that 10 apoc works in particular situations like in mobs, ghom, etc but but the windup is significantly slower for single or fast moving targets. Getting a high damage force with 10 apoc is prohibitively expensive for most but high damage force with 5-8 apoc is a reasonable compromise.

I think you can see apoc like loh. You can get by with 800 loh with 150k dps but 1000-1200 loh would be better.
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I do fine with 750 LOH and 200k plus dps
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02/25/2013 10:02 AMPosted by Shoe
I haven't done any testing but what I gather from all the posts is that 10 apoc works in particular situations like in mobs, ghom, etc but but the windup is significantly slower for single or fast moving targets.


No, 10 APOC works all the time. Against single targets on windup you'll get one, maybe two additional "Out of AP" messages. If you run Force Weapon-Conduit even these disappear.
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It isn't significantly longer, maybe 1-2 sec longer, but only if you face single target from the beginning. If you kill something and then down to 1 target, for example Minions and down to Yellow, you have 0 windup time with 10 ApoC, globe full from the beginning. Because when you farm there is nearly no occasion that you face single from the start, and bosses are usually big, the difference between 10 and 20 is minimal.

This wasn't the case in 1.06, I ran out of AP vs 2 targets before, with 16 APoC.
Edited by novice#1750 on 2/25/2013 10:32 AM PST
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No, 10 APOC works all the time. Against single targets on windup you'll get one, maybe two additional "Out of AP" messages. If you run Force Weapon-Conduit even these disappear.


i've been taking Ossian's advice to heart since his suggestion in the other thread. ran MP8 ubers last night, with UA instead of GC and everything went smoothly. my only hardship were lag spikes, which is what i took UA for. saved my three times in kulle/seige and another two in mags/SK.
Edited by cadboy#1962 on 2/25/2013 10:35 AM PST
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Well I didn't read all of these...but in my experience below 15 apoc is not enough. I currently run 3.04aps/56% cc unbuff and even at those numbers 15 is just enough to be efficient. I have tried less and I just got annoyed but how much I had to slow down and be careful to make sure I had enough apoc to continue casting. I really feel that even above 3.01 and 50%cc anything below 15 seems like extra work.
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may be we can say that we can bare minimun run with 10apoc. However, is it optimal? Doesn't 20apoc give us smoother run than 10apoc?

so the question is: is non-apoc force worth an upgrade to gain a significant dps boost for those who already run with 20apoc? because running 10apoc should feel equal to 20apoc. If you are more often than not looking for more apoc, then it's not worth upgrading?
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Apocs been doubled return. so 10 is 20 20 is 40 and so on. Thats why meteors got so good and we can spam with 20 reasonably well where as b4 even 30 was trash. Now 30 is most excellent full spam meteor only on ghom when i tested with my ls chants. Will it stay this way is the question. If so 10 is perfectly viable just like 20 was for high ias/cc cms.

What does this do? Put my cheap source in your mempo users calcs...adds 15K+ and life to most of you. We can use LS black daggers/sloracks etc and only Crow needed - we can use huge INT - elite Oculous with mempo and ias daggers - really opens gearing options IMO.
Edited by Aimless#1700 on 2/25/2013 11:23 AM PST
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Aimless, let me borrow your force in game.
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Can't take on anyone without deleting someone try this http://unyieldingvalor.com/D3/calcTool.php
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02/25/2013 11:12 AMPosted by Aimless
Thats why meteors got so good and we can spam with 20 reasonably well where as b4 even 30 was trash. Now 30 is most excellent full spam meteor only on ghom when i tested with my ls chants.


I've replaced teleport with meteor for my sns build because I can take down things so much quicker. This gives me reason enough to have at least 15 apoc. Aimless is right, this change opens up more diversity in gear.
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Ok, since it's obvious we're not following the #1 rule of wizard club, I figure to chime in on the 'optimality' of this. I've been farming with and without the APOC force (my non-apoc force has slightly higher dps and ehp) and honestly I don't feel the difference. It took a little bit of adjustment in spamming twisters so I could teleport optimally but its marginal and the run-times are about the same (really hard to test this b/c number of packs, map generation etc. are always different). The elites I have trouble with are the same ones I have issues with at 20apoc (namely, the act3 keywarden) and my dps/ehp are both higher (not 15k higher, what the aimless?! but a bit higher :P)
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ah...spent all my gold on upgrading WD,
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From my experience. 10+ APoC is good. I mean you sacrifice a lot of dps when your not using SnS or another CM build. Right now im running SnS with Meteors instead of blast because more crits equals more apoc. I find that it destroys mobs because it has a better radius and it spams more. I have 20APoC and 50CC and 150 CP I am rocking in groups of MP7.
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Apocs been doubled return. so 10 is 20 20 is 40 and so on. Thats why meteors got so good and we can spam with 20 reasonably well where as b4 even 30 was trash. Now 30 is most excellent full spam meteor only on ghom when i tested with my ls chants. Will it stay this way is the question. If so 10 is perfectly viable just like 20 was for high ias/cc cms.


Fyi, I am very happy with these un-intended changes, because in the future it is now possible to replace Et/ww with Most meteor runes as the generating source for apoc and crits, now that Apoc is sufficient to sustain attack turns. As it sits these are the runes with my current in-gear profile that can sustain infinite solo cast sans prism Star Pact and Liquefy, I am also at an estimate about 13%~15% base cc away from being able to do that with Molten Impact and Comet. Meteor shower is still a long ways off, and probably the only way to sustain meteor shower is with base 75% crit and a 0.075 proc rate (which probably would never happen, but one could hope.).
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Actually, we don't have a clue what the hell happened. The collective brain of the wizard's community has been unable to figure out how APoC is different now, let alone why. So I would be very careful to build a gearset around it. Just saying.
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Best option with this is to get black dagger, apoc triumvirate and mempo. That is major dps boost.
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02/25/2013 01:41 PMPosted by apo
Actually, we don't have a clue what the hell happened. The collective brain of the wizard's community has been unable to figure out how APoC is different now, let alone why. So I would be very careful to build a gearset around it. Just saying.


^ What he said.

Its definately changed and SNS is quite viable at 10 apoc now, but I still prefer 20 due Single Elites having the occasional "out of apoc" crap.
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has anyone re-tested the IAS breakpoints on ww? i dont think it would be a huge surprise if they changed
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