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Gosu, just throwing this out there... please have a backup copy of this thread incase it gets deleted/lost (post count limit).
That being said, if this gets to the post limit without a single acknowledgment from a blue I'm going to create a new thread and link to it.
Also this is for you. I suggest you consider it.
Edited by Emperor#1399 on 2/28/2013 3:05 PM PST
Gosu, just throwing this out there... please have a backup copy of this thread incase it gets deleted/lost (post count limit).
Not if I do it first! Hehe, but I'll make sure there's a copy of this thread at the top of the forums until a blue posts on it.
PRIME POWER LOOT SYSTEM PROPOSAL:
There is undoubtedly some potential concerns for this system. I'm about 75% certain that if the system were implemented almost exactly as I outline it, that it would eventually stabilize within the economy and everything would workout just fine. I feel this way because I envision the system existing in an entirely different version of the game. This version of the game has AT LEAST 15 more "useful" affixes than we have to chose from today. With so many affixes to chose from and such a small chance of a prime roll occurring(let alone 2 prime rolls) on an item that already managed to roll a high affix value, I think that there will be such an enormous amount of discrepancy between items that an overly standardized system of desired prime rolls cannot truly exist.
In order for standardization to occur, you need to achieve a common state of acceptance for what would be considered the "norm". This system avoids the "norm" by introducing such an outrageously wide range of potentials, that such establishment would not be possible as an all encompassing understanding.
More likely, norms would be established for certain styles of play and builds. One might say, "these kinds of builds need these kinds of prime rolls to be really good or even viable". But that's okay. So long as the system doesn't reach the point of, "these kinds of prime rolls are the best for the majority of builds no matter what" then it should work out.
Like I said though, I can't be certain. It's a VERY complex system that would require a great amount of testing to verify that it can be done. It might very well be a system that needs certain trade limitations applied to it. Maybe even a BoA factor as someone in this thread mentioned. Perhaps trading it will decrease it's power? Or perhaps you just have to keep what you find? Like I said in the post, the system definitely has room to grow, but I think the main point is a solid one.
I would like to comment on the suggestions made by Gosu and provide alternative point of view opposed to the prevalent "What a genius post, he should become the new game director for Diablo3".
I would like to apologize in advance, that I wont be covering this in great detail, because if I were to comment on each and every thing, I would have to write twice as long of a wall of text.
I hope that what I am about to say is not considered hate or offense against Gosu, but there are some things I simply can't agree with.
While I agree with a lot of what you said in regards to Challenge, Itemization and the Auction House, when it comes to your suggestion about stats and affixes, a lot of them are uninspired and lame, because they mostly relate to resource reduction:
Increasesre sourcere generation by X. 0/10 points
Resources (and cooldowns) are there to be managed by the player as a part of the gameplay and not to be completely circumvented through stats, talents or potion spam (the way it played out in Diablo2).
When I read your comments in regards to resource generation of Barbarians and Demon Hunters I get the feeling, that you don't like resource generation, resource and cooldown management all that much and, that in "your version of the game" you want many ways to circumvent them.
Sorry, I am not thrilled.
Remove all boring and useless affixes from the game.
I also find this comment very annoying. Just because certain stats are boring and useless to you doesn't mean, that other players are not utilizing them in a non boring way.
Same goes for your comment in regard to certain Demon Hunter active and passive skills.
I am using Brooding and I wouldn't like to see it go.
Devouring Arrow and Spray of Teeth are not the only useful skill runes for Hungering Arrow. Just because you think, that certain skill rune has no use, doesn't mean it has none. I am only gonna say, that certain players chose to use life per hit and the different proc coefficients for different skill runes do come into play when they chose their builds.
Here I get to the part to which again you go on to talk about skills, which you clearly don't understand:
And even after openly admitting you don't have much experience with the class you go on to talk about skills you don't understand and brand them useless:
Let’s start with Wall of Zombies. I actually think that the Dead Rush and Pile on runes are quite creative and interesting. The problem is that the cooldown of this skill makes every single rune for it useless.
And again, with you if the problem ain't resource, it will most certainly be the cooldown. Pile On is a great skill rune. Just because you lack experience with the class and particular skill runes doesn't mean they have no use. At this point I actually stopped reading the rest of your views on the Witch Doctor, since you're clearly not objective. I don't know why you said you lack experience with the class, but then you decided to talk about it anyways.
Moving on to your suggestion about the so called NEPHALEM POWER STAT SYSTEM.
So here’s how it works. Items will now drop with the potential of rolling the “Nephalem Power” affix. Like all other affixes, this affix rolls a certain value. For the sake of explanation, let’s say that value is between 1-5 depending on the item. Once equipped, your character will now be able to “spend” these points in a new pseudo-skill tree system.
I am sorry, but getting talent points through items sounds like a very stupid thing. 99% of your suggestions for talents are again many different forms of resource reduction and some life steal.
When it comes to your thoughts in regards to the "Poor Weapon system" and a great deal of your other thoughts regarding the itemization, you're basically explaining with long and complex explanations what this guy said in a very simple manner. I suggest you learn from him:
Passive skills should ALL be capable of serving as foundational skills. While certain builds might be able to use certain passives to supplement them, the majority of passive skills should focus on changing the way players play the game
It sounds very good on theory, but I am sure it's very hard to implement. The initial intent for the passives(back then they were called traits) were to be just that. The example Jay Wilson made in one of the BlizzCons was a player would have to chose what Barbarian he'd like to make through it's traits: exceptionally strong, exceptionally fast or exceptionally though. It sounded like a very cool concept, but here's the thing:
For that concept to work, selecting each of those traits would have to completely change how almost all active skills behave -- not just their properties, but animations as well. Imagine if all the passives were like that? This would take a decade, and enormous amount of resources.
I’ve played at least 8 variations of the WW/Sprint build, yet all of them still consist of 95% sprinting and spinning. As far as I’m concerned, they are all the same build. You can’t say Diablo 3 has millions of potential builds when in reality there are a small fraction of that amount due to the fact that foundational skills create builds, while the buttload of supplemental skills existent in the game do just that, supplement them. We need roughly 70%+ foundation skills/runes and 30% or fewer supplemental skills/runes, not the extreme opposite, like we have now. Without that ratio, Diablo 3 will never attain the level of customization it should have. Also, it’s very important to remember that the majority of BOTH foundation and supplemental skills currently found in the game are just not good enough to warrant using in any situation.
Wait, wait, wait. You tell me you found eight different ways to supplement your whirlwind build and you're not happy? Tell me how many different Whirlwind builds there were back in Diablo2.
I do agree that many skill runes are just dumb and need replacement.However, you're asking for insane level of customization, a level of customization no previous game has ever had.
And another thing. You seem to forget that back in Diablo2 and up until Diablo2: LoD most of the builds revolved around the very few skills the classes unlocked at level 24 or 30. Only in patch 1.10 (which is a very controversial patch and not everyone feels the same way about it, but that's a subject for another time) many of the prior skills became part of builds, either as a foundation skills or as mere supplements in the form of synergy bonuses.
At least Diablo3 made it so even skills available at level one such as Bash, Hungering Arrow and so on have their place in the endgame.
Again, I think that the level of customization you think Diablo3 should have is absolutely unreasonable, I am sure if you sit to think about it you'll come to the same conclusion.
I read the rest, but I am not gonna talk about it. I have mixed feelings, but by that point I was already bias based on the way you judge things.
Here's my concusion/tl;dr
Based on the above, my answer to your question whether or not I would like to play "your version of the game, the answer is No. I am going to quickly summarize why is that:
Despite your many insights, it is your overall approach, which pretty much completely diminishes them. Approach which I don't appreciate, not one bit.
I do understand feeling the need to perfect something, however that's not what you really want.
What you basically want is to tare down and rebuild the game pretty much from the ground up, which is unreasonable and simply wont happen.
Your approach is not of a gamer, let alone developer, because you found issue with almost everything there is in this game. I can't help, but wonder how you even managed to play this game for so long with all the issues you find with it.
The appropriate approach as a gamer or a game developer should be "I am going to do the best I can with what I have". I am not saying that the current Diablo3 development team did the best they could with the resources they had on their disposal. May be they did, may be they didn't -- I wasn't there and therefore I will never know. In your case it goes like this:
If you were the real game you claim to be, you would play the game and you pick the skills which to you seem the best, regardless of the reasons which make them feel compelling to you, you play with them and do the best you can with them. And the rest of the skills which seem lame to you, you leave them to the rest of us.
What you did however is that you branded many skills useless, even ones which have their use, but you clearly don't understand. You openly admitted you don't know enough about the Witch Doctor skills and yet went on to talk about the WD skills anyways.
Same goes for the resources and cooldowns. If you were the gamer you're claiming to be, you would have understood that resources and cooldowns are there for a reason, instead of asking for a whole bunch of changes to pretty much completely circumvent resource or cooldown management.
This is not being objective. These are no qualities of a gamer, let alone a game developer.
Take this as you will, regardless I wish you all the best.
Meanwhile at Blizzard HQ…
A group of CMs barge in Rob Pardo’s office. One of them steps forward.
- We’ve got another constructive criticism post, boss… And this one’s really good… By a guy named Gosu. It made us see clearly the flaws of Diablo 3. I think we should pass it on to the dev team.
- No – replies Rob firmly. – They are not to be disturbed.
- But the guy shows real knowledge of what’s fun in a game. If implemented his proposed changes will increase our playerbase tremendously. Every single reply to his post is positive. This has never happened before!
- I said no!
- But what about the…
At this moment Rob Pardo snaps his fingers while looking at the CM with a cold-blooded expression on his face. Three Blizzard ninjas dressed in traditional blue game master outfits appear out of thin air and drag the scared CM out of the room. A short scream is heard followed by a tense silence. Rob turns to the trembling group of CMs.
- I take it you all just got reminded that nobody is allowed to go in the basement where the dev team is situated… Now back to work!
The CMs leave Rob’s office faster than a barbarian with sprint although much more terrified.
Left alone with his thoughts Pardo looks through the window at California’s sunny beaches.
- That one was close… We really need to do something to keep the community obedient. At this rate it won’t be long till someone finds out we hired slow folks to develop Diablo 3. Probably even before the expansion… We may need to move the dev team to the South Pole. Or maybe somewhere in the jungles of Australia. Or the deserts of Afri…
A phone rings.
- Hey, Rob! It’s Mike. Wanna go for margaritas on the beach?
- Sure! It’s been a stressful day. “Getting rid of” a CM always leaves a bad taste in my mouth… I still remember the case with Tseric. Screamed like a little girl… Keep in mind that there might be some problems involving Diablo 3 that we will need to solve soon™ though…
P. S. If someone finds some parts of this offensive I apologise in advance and will delete it. Every part of it should be viewed as pure (although a bit dark) humour. If you find it funny at all that is... Just had a moment of inspiration while reading the original post and I though I should share it :)
Edited by batboio#2237 on 2/28/2013 3:23 PM PST
Still not sure how any of this overcomes the "almost every single upgrade you find from the moment you click "enter game" until the moment you quit will be from the AH" problem.
You're absolutely right. There is very little that Blizzard can do that would completely solve this issue. Having the entire collective inventory of player's items to choose from is ALWAYS going to be easier than finding items yourself.
Having said that, I don't believe that the system is incapable of creating less of a gap between the two gearing methods. I think that if players are given meaningful choices often, by their own work, in which to select from then they will find themselves flocking to the AH LESS often. Also, you have to remember that people use the AH as much as they do now because stats are 100% standardized across the board in this game. Every class, regardless of spec, uses ALMOST the exact same stats. So obviously when you are hunting for these stats and failing to find them in increasingly greater quantities, your best option is to head straight for the AH.
The problem with that is that the ONLY things that you can sell in order to acquire said items is another class's version of those stats! This is why the item hunt is so boring. This is why 99% of the gear you find will never be used by anyone, ever.
Now imagine this scenario in a game where there are an enormous number of potentially desired collections of affixes on items. This kind of system promotes an economy where a significant number of items are valued based almost purely on the numerical value of the affixes that are present on items. This differs from the current system in that value isn't first identified by how many of the "valuable" affixes appeared on the item, and THEN what their values actually are.
When a significant number of affix combinations hold value, instead of just a few, the item game changes completely and utterly. Not only that, but throw the Prime Loot system into the mix and you're drastically increasing the number of potentially valuable affix combinations.
So now you have a system where players are collecting loot that a large number of players could place value in, including themselves. The next step in this process is when the player identifies the route they want to pursue and which collection of affixes will be required in order to increase the power of that choice.
Ideally, you want these choices to be able to behave at least somewhat dynamically as your character grows in general power. So now the player has a specific set of affixes in mind that he/she is hunting for. In the current version of the game, these affixes are almost the exact same for every single person. In THIS version of the game, that player's desired affixes are not going to be the same as a large number of other people's. This means that a lot of the gear that he finds has potential for value, instead of just an incredibly tiny portion of it.
You're still going to find gear that is just all around better than other gear, but it's not going to be such a standardized and exact system. Players are still going to desire quicker upgrades than what they'll be capable of finding at a certain point, but at least now they won't have to count on finding that one EXACT item to sell in order to increase their own power. There's also a chance that this player wants to go another route because he/she happens to find a VERY powerful item that supports a different kind of efficient build. This scenario is simply impossible in the current version of the game.
So yes, the AH will still be used quite often. Except now people will possess a much greater control of their path to power than before. ALSO CHOICES!
Noxifer, many more people seem to share Gosu's opinion than they do yours. Obviously, its impossible to please everyone and I'm sure some people can use even the worst runes to great effect. I find the way he approached these problems to be just fine. I for one agree that cooldowns and steep resource costs are hateful and unnecessary as they leech fun and creativity for the sake of...not sure what. Regardless, you have to admit that there isn't enough build variety and although Gosu's wording might have been a bit careless, his overall solution suggestions more than make up for it.
I do believe this is the very first time that I agree with every single word posted by the OP.
Very, extremely, well thought out. Some of the changes you proposed were mind-numbing and very unique. Something I don't expect the current dev team to brain storm up. We need people like you in the gaming industry. If D3 implements the majority, if not all, those points you mentioned.
This game will become something so epic David Brevik would cry.
So what? What does that have to do with anything, really?
I am perfectly fine with people not sharing my opinion. With risk of acting melodramatic, I am gonna say that whether people agreed that the Earth is flat back in the past or not didn't had any affect on the truth. Truth is not born from an argument, only a compromise.
The truth is what persists before any arguments.
The runes which I discussed or hinted about are by no means "the worst", however if what you say is true, then I see no problem. Sure there are many skills runes, which I would personally replace given the chance. And what If I remove a skill, which players had fun with and used to a great effect?
Then this game is simply not for you. Or may be gaming in general, I don't know.
Resource costs and cooldowns are hateful?! OK, say we remove resource costs, even cooldowns. Why would I ever use a single target skill, when I can just pick up a High damage AoE and spam it without any limitations forever?
Once that's done I am sure other people will pop out and say that single target skills are hateful, so we should get rid of them as well. And on, and on, up until the point that we all get to use the Armageddon from the classic Diablo -- press a single button and all the monsters on the screen burst into flame. Very interesting gameplay...
My initial reaction would be to say "Yes, I do agree", but come to think if it, the truth is that I really don't know. I don't know what skills everybody else uses. I use the skills I find enjoyable and comfortable. I see very interesting skill choices when I look upon players from my friend list. Some of them are very successful in game.
Not all of them. Again, the suggestion about items giving talent points which reduce resource costs and add life leach still sounds like a very stupid thing. That's just one example.
Edited by Noxifer#2606 on 2/28/2013 4:03 PM PST
Only read a small part of it.
Want to continue, but can't unless I call sick from work tomorrow ;)
Gosu, it's clear you've put a lot of thought into this.
Wonderful read, and so far, I agree to most of what you say.
Will continue reading it tomorrow for sure.
I really hope the CM's forward this to the devs and they are willing to do something with it.
(actually, since they ARE game designers, I can't imagine they don't have some of these ideas already.. they should have!)
Edited by Sjippie#1970 on 2/28/2013 4:06 PM PST
Gosu - i am in your boat - been playing video games since the Vectrix and Tellstar Ranger, Atari 2600, Intelivision, Colecovision, NES, all the way up to the Wii, etc. etc...I love this post and am very astonished at the amount of time you put into it - I give you massive thumbs up. I browsed through it and will tackle more of it later - but by far the best 'gentleman-like' post i have ever read - great points, and very reachable - not filled with fanboi or hate...very good job!
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