Diablo® III

The Salvation of Diablo 3: A Guide by Gosu

Resources (and cooldowns) are there to be managed by the player as a part of the gameplay and not to be completely circumvented through stats, talents or potion spam (the way it played out in Diablo2).
When I read your comments in regards to resource generation of Barbarians and Demon Hunters I get the feeling, that you don't like resource generation, resource and cooldown management all that much and, that in "your version of the game" you want many ways to circumvent them.
Sorry, I am not thrilled.


I want to start by thanking you for your constructive criticism of my ideas. While it feels good to see support for what I have written, I absolutely LOVE that I've been given the chance to defend and elaborate upon many of my ideas. I do not expect everyone to accept what I have said without any opposition. Now to address this particular quote:

I fully agree with you that elements of gameplay need to exist in which players must take intelligent action in order to properly utilize. I am not opposed to resource management or cooldowns in the general sense. What I AM opposed to is the existence of several specific means of circumvention in which all other play styles are compared. I do not think that the overall goal of power should be that of avoiding as much challenge as possible, though I do think that MOST power should be accompanied by means of making certain challenges easier.

Which challenges SHOULD be made easier is a VERY complex subject that is incredibly difficult to accurately theorize and even more difficult to properly implement.

The only way to properly evaluate and decide upon a driving game design philosophy, in this instance, is to identify what already exists in this version of the game and why or why not future changes should incorporate more of the same or scrap the concept entirely.

First we must observe what appear to be the most efficient builds in the current iteration of the game. What is the one thing that they all have in common? The answer is powerful resource generation or a focus on avoiding the need to constantly "break" from your efficiency in order to generate said resources. Monk tempest rush/sweeping wind build, wizard archon/CM build, Barb WW/sprint and HotA build, witch doctor acid cloud/sacrifice build, demon hunter strafe/lightning arrow/multishot build. They are all powerful because they do not force you to stop and regenerate resources in such a way that kills your efficiency.

Now we have to ask ourselves something: does anyone enjoy playing any of these builds? I've played them all and I can say without a shred of doubt that I absolutely enjoy killing things fast, running around fast and knowing that I'm using my time playing efficiently. I also know that a lot of people would prefer to not use many, if all of these builds. Some people just don't like whirlwinding constantly as a barb or only spamming right click in Archon form as a Wizard and that's totally understandable!

So now we have to ask ourselves another question: Do we want to encourage more variety in efficient builds, or do we want to scrap that kind of mindset all together and erase the existence of all builds that have found ways to take away a lot of the focus on actively and inefficiently generating resources? Would that result in a more enjoyable game? Would players feel powerful if they had to constantly stop using their strong skills in order to prep them with their weak ones? I think the answer is a very obvious, "no". That being said, I think that a large part of the problem comes from just how weak and boring many of the generation skills actually are.

But here's the main point...

Part of what comes with power in this game is always going be categorized in 3 ways.

Figuring out ways to kill lots of things very quickly by using skills that don't destroy your resources

Figuring out ways to make resources a non issue via passive methods or active methods.

And figuring out ways to incorporate resource regeneration skills that carry a significant amount of power with them so that you aren't losing a ton of efficiency by applying them in combat.

What I propose is not simply the circumvention of all of the above. I propose a system in which players who have put in the time and effort are presented with a variety of choices in which to overcome challenges and rise to efficiency. Each of these choices grants the player power in one or more of the ways that I listed above. As a player grows in power, the manner in which they manage their resources should absolutely change! This isn't a bad thing!

If a player builds a ton of passive regeneration, then it means that not only did they have to put forth a great effort to accomplish a powerful set of gear, but they also are taking advantage of a build that requires that kind of passive regeneration. Purely passive regeneration can NEVER grant a player as many resources as a skill that is designed to grant a LOT of resources(in a well balanced game). This means that the build must reflect that understanding. No matter what, you will ALWAYS be able to spend resources faster than you can generate them. This means that resource management will always play a role in how you play the game.

I am not advocating the complete and utter bypassing of this management. I am simply suggesting that players be given different options of power that change the way this management is done. This is where itemization and proper class balance comes into play. In my version of the game, a player cannot simply stack every means of resource generation, regardless of spec and expect to be efficient.

Each one of those affixes that you listed from my OP carry with them different amounts of power depending on how you decide to gear and build your character. You cant just stack them all and expect it to work. You'd have nothing but resource focused affixes on all your gear and skills. Where would your DPS come from? What about your defenses? What skills would you use to attack? How would you even take advantage of such an overabundance of resources? Is it impossible? naaa, is it going to be the all around best method of power no matter what? No way in hell(at least not if it isn't balanced HORRIBLY).

To summarize, I absolutely feel that an important factor in ALL powerful builds should be YOUR particular method of circumventing SOME of the drudgery that comes with resource management. The idea that there should be little to no difference, where resource management is concerned, between a beginner player and an incredibly experienced and well-geared player is just absurd. There should be a great deal of difference! Remember that you can always spend resources faster than you can generate them. This fact will always carry with it an implied method of resource regeneration and management.

As for cooldowns, I absolutely do not think that cooldowns in general are clever, creative or fun methods of skill and gameplay management. Cooldowns should only exist when there is literally no other possible method for preventing the game-breaking abuse of a skill. Know that the term, "game-breaking" applies very differently to Diablo 3 than it would in most games. If a player finds themselves using one skill that does everything they need it to do without any sort of talent or effort, then that skill is game breaking. So long as a skill or set of skills is fun and at least somewhat challenging to use at its greatest efficiency, the game remains unbroken.

A good example would be if the Witch Doctor skill, "Fetish Army" had no cooldown. The skill is only cool because of the potential power behind it, if the skill wasn't very powerful, then the lacking of a cooldown would make sense, except then it probably wouldn't be as much fun. If the skill WAS powerful and had no cooldown, then the fetishes would just swarm and kill everything and you, the WD, could just sit back and watch it all(at least on lower MP levels). That's not going to be fun for most people. There's not even the tiniest smidgen of skill involved and all you have to do is spam one skill over and over. Anyway, I'm getting a little off track here.

The point is, is that I don't think cooldowns should serve as the sole source of skill abuse prevention in this game. There exists an ENORMOUS number of ways to prevent or discourage, without proper preperation, gearing and speccing, a person from spamming a powerful skill.

After reading your post the rest of your post, I'm afraid I'm going to have to stop my response here. You don't seem to have a good understanding of this game and I'm sorry to say that you do not belong in this discussion. EDIT: I wanted to clarify this. I feel that you've demonstrated a fundamental lack of understanding of the game to the point where I don't feel that you are able to comment constructively in this thread. I'm not here to tell you to leave, I'm just giving my opinion. Obviously you are free to do and say as you want. I just don't want to spend anymore time trying to convince someone of something who does not seem to be capable of seeing my point outside your own perceptions. I've already spent much more time responding to this than I should have. Before I stop, I'll say one thing.

You brought up the Witch Doctor skill "Pile On" as a potentially good skill. I'm sorrry, but this skill is terrible in all shapes and forms. Just because you are able to take a terrible skill and somehow use it in a way that is less terrible does not make it a "good" skill. Why do less than 0.2% of ALL players use the skill?

I'm sorry but you just don't have a good understanding of the game. I don't mean any offense by it. I just don't have the time or energy to explain to you why that is.
Edited by Gosu#1173 on 2/28/2013 5:30 PM PST
Perhaps you should be recruited to work for Blizzard? :)

I read through just the beginning and skimmed through some sections, but I could tell that you put a lot of thought into this post. I agreed with a good chunk of it so I'll have to look at it more later... perhaps this could lead to a friggin AWESOME expansion?? :O

If more people keep responding with critiques then maybe we could have a completed guideline for Blizzard to reference while making add-ons/patches :P
Edited by Euphorial#1211 on 2/28/2013 4:45 PM PST
After reading your thesis and subjecting it to the full rigors of scientific analysis, I am pleased to present you with a Ph.D. in Diablology from the esteemed University of Sanctuary. I hope your future projects gain you great reknown in the community and that the Blizzard Gentlepeoples Club make you their official President of Future Game Design. Gosu, we the people salute you :D
LOL DIDNT READ ~~~
didnt read the whole thread, but i read the op and have to say well done.

you are off about the wd though - you can see that somebody designed it to be different but all of its interesting stuff is "on kill" mechanics which doesnt work very well against elites on higher MPs or ubers. barbs and wizards are powerful because of into the fray and cm as you mentioned. wd has no choice but to stack mana regen like crazy and avoid IAS like the plague, which is why the sheet dps for WD stays low if people actually use their WD. I doubt you'll find any high end WDs running with huge IAS, if I could find a skorn with mana regen and life leech i'd piss my pants.
MVP
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Before I move on to the next bullet point, I’d like to make a specific mention of the tragedy that is the Demon Hunter weapon fiasco. There is literally only 1 weapon in the game that DH’s should be using. Everyone knows what it is and every sane DH seeks one. This is an absolute travesty that needs to be addressed immediately. Make 1h xbows and 2h bows suitable alternatives to 2h xbows and introduce an alternative to the all-powerful Manticore. Start by fixing that stupid passive. I also suggest introducing another set of ranged weapons into the game.

I'd like to supplement this section with a brief mention of one problem: Weapon damage rolls. The fact that weapon damage is so utterly important to every class and every spec means that including THREE different affixes that can increase said damage is a formula for disaster. The weapon damage roll needs to be erased from this game. Weapon damage should be applied based on the item level of the weapon. I think it is perfectly acceptable to have the +%DMG affix and the +%Attack speed affix, but the damage roll needs to be forgotten forever.

Too many awesome weapons have been wasted because of the absurdly low odds of rolling a suitable damage roll. The only thing that the weapon damage affix has managed to accomplish is bringing down the enjoyment of the item hunt.

Moving on…

I've gotten so many awesome weapons that wanted to be good, but just had really poor loot rolls.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Drothvader-1215/hero/3619084

I found my OH weapon pretty early in the game. I think around 1.0.3 or 1.0.4 or something like that.

It's like, the weapon wanted to be good... and tried to be good... but fell short on greatness thanks to the low damage rolls.

Of course it would have been better if that Intellect was actually Crit Damage instead, but it's still a potentially really good weapon nonetheless.

The only saving grace it has is in the fact that it makes a pretty awesome stat stick.
Posts: 2,626
Great post OP!

One major failure on your part. None of your ideas took in to consideration the maximization of profit for Blizzard via the RMAH.

CMs and Devs have no doubt read your post. If you're really lucky, some ideas may be cherry picked. But only if they have money making potential.

Welcome to Acti-Blizz-a-vision. :)
excellent contribution to the thread droth. really, eye popping stuff.
02/28/2013 04:01 PMPosted by Ðragonslayer
In any event I like abilities that make you feel real powerful. Adding life leach and reducing resource costs sounds fun precisely because it does make you powerful and really is over powered. I don't think we should be afraid of that, rather we should embrace it.

Spamming a single AoE skill without limitations seems like a very funny thing, so did playing with a tempered with character back in Diablo2.
Guess what? It was fun!... for precisely five minutes.
Quite frankly I believe that we should leave behind the one button spam back in the early 2000 instead of asking for it to make a return.
02/28/2013 04:01 PMPosted by Ðragonslayer
In diablo 2 it didn't feel as gear dependent as it does in this game.

Sure. If you played a caster you weren't so gear dependent. I also played caster and I could faceroll Hell in blues and socketed items.
However when I tried to play attack rating based characters I quickly realized how much gear dependent they were. Just as much as in D3... if not more.
02/28/2013 04:01 PMPosted by Ðragonslayer
Make the game more about your character development

I don't mean to play a devil's advocate. I am not. I often allow myself to post against Blizzard and about issues I find with them. But this is getting ridiculous.

Make the game like this, make the game like that! I have to ask: How many times are Blizzard going to remake the game based on the new flavor of the month demand?

First the players were like "Diablo2 was too easy, make sure to make Diablo3 very, very hard".
Blizzard made the game very hard (though I wouldn't say it was difficult in the way I personally understand the word).

Then the players were like "This is too hard, easy on the difficulty a little bit". Blizzard made the game easier through patches and through making certain items roll better (initially you could never see weapons rolling 900Life on Hit).

Then the players were like "It's too easy again, let us adjust the difficulty". Blizzard adds Monster Power. (While many would argue that it should have been in the game at release, I would argue that It shouldn't be in the game at all, since I am in favor of more standardized difficulty. Again, that's a subject for another thread).

Now we've gotten to "resource costs and cooldowns are hateful", if were not overpowered the game ain't no fun. At this point if I were Blizzard I would tell you to go and ******************************************************************.

How dare the developers make skills have resource costs and by doing so actually incorporate some gameplay into the Diablo franchise. Shame and disgrace!
Edited by Noxifer#2606 on 3/1/2013 1:45 PM PST
I for one agree that cooldowns and steep resource costs are hateful and unnecessary as they leech fun and creativity for the sake of...not sure what.

...............................................................
Then this game is simply not for you. Or may be gaming in general, I don't know.

Resource costs and cooldowns are hateful?! OK, say we remove resource costs, even cooldowns. Why would I ever use a single target skill, when I can just pick up a High damage AoE and spam it without any limitations forever?
Once that's done I am sure other people will pop out and say that single target skills are hateful, so we should get rid of them as well. And on, and on, up until the point that we all get to use the Armageddon from the classic Diablo -- press a single button and all the monsters on the screen burst into flame. Very interesting gameplay...

Its obvious from your responses that you are definitely not "perfectly fine with people not sharing your opinion." Its also obvious that you haven't played Diablo 2, where 80-90% of Diablo 3 players came from, 90% of which have ceased to play. It seems to me (and based on your other posts) that you have very little constructive input to offer and very little knowledge about games in general. At this point, I'm going to go ahead and stop taking you seriously and recommend that everyone else do the same.
Edited by Igknight#1339 on 2/28/2013 5:08 PM PST
[quote]
I don't think anyone should be facerolling the game without having put forth an ENORMOUS effort.


Why though? Like I remember getting pretty strong in Diablo 2 and it wasn't an enormous effort by any means. It also didn't require as much gear as it does in Diablo 3.


I was more talking about higher MP levels. Faceroll to your heart's content on lower difficulties.
02/28/2013 03:10 PMPosted by Noxifer
Wait, wait, wait. You tell me you found eight different ways to supplement your whirlwind build and you're not happy?


I know I said I was going to stop but I just had to comment on this one.

It sounds like you didn't read or understand my post at all. All 8 of those different builds played 95% the same. How does that make for a good game? Shouldn't swapping skills change the behavior of the build at least a little bit? Lol is this hard to understand?
You tellem gosu.
Posts: 547
I for one agree that cooldowns and steep resource costs are hateful and unnecessary as they leech fun and creativity for the sake of...not sure what.

...............................................................
Then this game is simply not for you. Or may be gaming in general, I don't know.

Resource costs and cooldowns are hateful?! OK, say we remove resource costs, even cooldowns. Why would I ever use a single target skill, when I can just pick up a High damage AoE and spam it without any limitations forever?
Once that's done I am sure other people will pop out and say that single target skills are hateful, so we should get rid of them as well. And on, and on, up until the point that we all get to use the Armageddon from the classic Diablo -- press a single button and all the monsters on the screen burst into flame. Very interesting gameplay...

Its obvious from your responses that you are definitely not "perfectly fine with people not sharing your opinion." Its also obvious that you haven't played Diablo 2, where 80-90% of Diablo 3 players came from, 90% of which have ceased to play. It seems to me (and based on your other posts) that you have very little constructive input to offer and very little knowledge about games in general. At this point, I'm going to go ahead and stop taking you seriously and recommend that everyone else do the same.


The way I see it is is two fold:

1) He is not really trolling (I think).
2) He disagrees with almost everything the OP said.

That being said he has an opinion (even if 100% of people disagree with him) and he is entitled to it. I think the opposition is good, because if there was none then we wouldn't know of any possible bad side effects of the OP suggestions. This can help us think about "ironing" them out so to speak.

Personally though, I am still sticking to my opinion that if everything was implemented that the OP suggested (heck even just the big one - Prime System -) the game would bring back all 15 million people. Instantly.
02/28/2013 04:40 PMPosted by Gosu
After reading your post the rest of your post, I'm afraid I'm going to have to stop my response here.

Strange, but you don't seem to stop at that point :P
You don't seem to have a good understanding of this game and I'm sorry to say that you do not belong in this discussion. You have demonstrated a severe lack of understanding in many areas of the game

Hahahaha. Actually you are the one who clearly lacks understanding and how certain skills are utilized. I pointed not one, but several examples of that. You didn't point even a single one.

You brought up the Witch Doctor skill "Pile On" as a potentially good skill. I'm sorrry, but this skill is terrible in all shapes and forms. Just because you are able to take a terrible skill and somehow use it in a way that is less terrible does not make it a "good" skill.

Believe it or not, not all skills are designed with PvE in mind. It's a PvP skill. You hex somebody with the Jinx rune. Based on your damage and the opponents defenses you can literally oneshot enemy players.

Again, just because you yourself don't know or can't find a use for something doesn't mean that thing is useless! And like I said, this approach is not the approach of a real game, even more so of someone who thinks can "save" games.
02/28/2013 04:40 PMPosted by Gosu
I'm sorry but you just don't have a good understanding of the game.

Quite the opposite. You proved several times that you rush to judge and brand skills useless, while at the same time you fail to figure out what's the use for those particular skills.

Also, just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I don't understand the subject at hand. Refusing to present any actual arguments doesn't make you more right, again quite the opposite.
Posts: 547
Noxifer... just had to ask, by any chance did you play D3?

I decided to look at your profile and it appears the only hero you have is a level 1 WD. Which tells me two things:

1) You started to play the game and immediately hated it.
2) You played the game for awhile, hated it and decided to delete everything.

Why then are you not in favor of revamping the game? I'm confused.
Nice post. I agree with your statements, but I don't like too much of the Wizard skill modifiers. We need a real good spammable skill, with a little procs and little AoE. Just like a good and old fireball.
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