Diablo® III

The Salvation of Diablo 3: A Guide by Gosu

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02/28/2013 05:07 PMPosted by Igknight
Its also obvious that you haven't played Diablo 2, where 80-90% of Diablo 3 players came from, 90% of which have ceased to play.

True fact. 99% of statistics are made up on the spot.

That statistic was also made up on the spot...

Anyway...

I think I'll agree with the person you're arguing with. Resource cooldowns are quite necessary. Some are way longer than they should be, but they're still necessary to preserve game balance.

Having a cooldown for a skill is the only way to allow the player to have a skill that is predominately more powered than every other skill in their arsenal.

There are some skills however that need their cooldown shortened. Teleport is one that comes to mind.

Completely eliminated though? That would be absurd for PVP.
How this thread hasn't got any blue attention yet baffles me.
02/28/2013 05:24 PMPosted by Noxifer
After reading your post the rest of your post, I'm afraid I'm going to have to stop my response here.

Strange, but you don't seem to stop at that point :P
You don't seem to have a good understanding of this game and I'm sorry to say that you do not belong in this discussion. You have demonstrated a severe lack of understanding in many areas of the game

Hahahaha. Actually you are the one who clearly lacks understanding and how certain skills are utilized. I pointed not one, but several examples of that. You didn't point even a single one.

You brought up the Witch Doctor skill "Pile On" as a potentially good skill. I'm sorrry, but this skill is terrible in all shapes and forms. Just because you are able to take a terrible skill and somehow use it in a way that is less terrible does not make it a "good" skill.

Believe it or not, not all skills are designed with PvE in mind. It's a PvP skill. You hex somebody with the Jinx rune. Based on your damage and the opponents defenses you can literally oneshot enemy players.

Again, just because you yourself don't know or can't find a use for something doesn't mean that thing is useless! And like I said, this approach is not the approach of a real game, even more so of someone who thinks can "save" games.
02/28/2013 04:40 PMPosted by Gosu
I'm sorry but you just don't have a good understanding of the game.

Quite the opposite. You proved several times that you rush to judge and brand skills useless, while at the same time you fail to figure out what's the use for those particular skills.

Also, just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I don't understand the subject at hand. Refusing to present any actual arguments doesn't make you more right, again quite the opposite.


Sigh, more demonstrations of an utter lack of understanding. Non of the skill examples you gave supported your argument in the slightest. I didn't say that because I can't find a use that something is useless. I am not speaking JUST for myself. There is a TON of evidence out there to support every one of my claims. You think that because you can one shot someone in a PVP match with pile on that it's a "great" skill? Do you not understand all the factors that encompass what makes skills "great"? This game wasn't even designed with the goal of balancing for PVP. In fact the exact opposite. It's been stated several times that PVP would not affect any important elements of the PVE game experience. Designing a skill solely around PVP is the exact opposite of this statement. Not only that, but the skill is far inferior to many other skills where PVP is concerned.

I'm not saying you don't understand the game because you disagree with me, I'm saying you don't understand it because of the demonstrations you given. AGAIN, I don't want to spend anymore time typing up a million paragraphs to try and convince someone of something who I don't think wants to be convinced. It's not worth the time or effort and I think we would both benefit greatly if we just moved on. Thank you for your feedback. You've shared your opinions, I am not going to ask you to defend them because it is clear to me that absolutely nothing you say can support them. I gave you a very sound explanation on my stance with resources and I don't feel like doing the same for every single one of your points.

I'm done now, I will not be responding to anything else you say, you have my word! :D
Noxifer... just had to ask, by any chance did you play D3?

I decided to look at your profile and it appears the only hero you have is a level 1 WD. Which tells me two things:

1) You started to play the game and immediately hated it.
2) You played the game for awhile, hated it and decided to delete everything.

Why then are you not in favor of revamping the game? I'm confused.


No, he's too scared to post from his actual account. For all we know, he could be Jay Wilson.
02/28/2013 05:32 PMPosted by Drothvader
Its also obvious that you haven't played Diablo 2, where 80-90% of Diablo 3 players came from, 90% of which have ceased to play.

True fact. 99% of statistics are made up on the spot.

That statistic was also made up on the spot...

Anyway...

I think I'll agree with the person you're arguing with. Resource cooldowns are quite necessary. Some are way longer than they should be, but they're still necessary to preserve game balance.

Having a cooldown for a skill is the only way to allow the player to have a skill that is predominately more powered than every other skill in their arsenal.

There are some skills however that need their cooldown shortened. Teleport is one that comes to mind.

Completely eliminated though? That would be absurd for PVP.


Did you read my post? There are a TON of suitable alternatives to cooldowns to impose drawbacks to certain skills or prevent them from being abused. Cooldowns are, overall a terribly unfun and non-creative method in accomplishing this.
02/28/2013 05:07 PMPosted by Igknight
Its obvious from your responses that you are definitely not "perfectly fine with people not sharing your opinion." Its also obvious that you haven't played Diablo 2, where 80-90% of Diablo 3 players came from

Hahahahhaa!
I played me hellavalot of Diablo2 and Lord of Destruction.
I don't mind people disagreeing with me. That doesn't mean I shouldn't defend my thesis.
Also I didn't knew Diablo2 sold more than 8 million copies. Not that I advocate the game being tailored to the WoW population, but you really need to get your facts straight.

1) He is not really trolling (I think).
2) He disagrees with almost everything the OP said.

I am not trolling. I also said that I agree with him on several subjects, namely his views on Challenge, Itemization, the Auction House and that certain Active and Passive skills need to go.
I however truly don't like his approach, which I discussed in detail in my first post in this thread.

02/28/2013 05:22 PMPosted by Emperor
I think the opposition is good, because if there was none then we wouldn't know of any possible bad side effects of the OP suggestions.

That's the exact reason I am posting. I wasn't thrilled when last year Kripparrian decided to make suggestions, which were later implemented, namely the Paragon system.
I think that system did more harm than good. While this again a subject for another thread, I am gonna mention that one of the very negative things about the Paragon system was that it gave Blizzard... I would say the excuse not to address the drops and the itemization. How so?

Prior to the implementation of the Paragon system the players could farm for like eight hours straight and get nothing, even lose gold to repair bills. After the implementation of the Paragon system the players could and still can get nothing after farming for eight hours straight, but at least would get few Paragon levels and some minor stats improvement. That made it so that the actual issues were never addressed.
What actual issues you might ask? I find an issue with any game, which makes so that you better go to a day, eight hour job in order to succeed in the game instead of actually playing the game for eight hours.

While our Gosu seems to have noble intentions and is working to finally solve those issues, It seems to me that he's gonna cause harm to the game along the way. Call me troll, tell me "You don't understand", but please, do take what I say into account. Just keep it in mind.
02/28/2013 05:32 PMPosted by Drothvader
Its also obvious that you haven't played Diablo 2, where 80-90% of Diablo 3 players came from, 90% of which have ceased to play.

True fact. 99% of statistics are made up on the spot.

That statistic was also made up on the spot...

Anyway...

I think I'll agree with the person you're arguing with. Resource cooldowns are quite necessary. Some are way longer than they should be, but they're still necessary to preserve game balance.

Having a cooldown for a skill is the only way to allow the player to have a skill that is predominately more powered than every other skill in their arsenal.

There are some skills however that need their cooldown shortened. Teleport is one that comes to mind.

Completely eliminated though? That would be absurd for PVP.

That is the part where an INTELIGENT itemisation would have to come in to play, items that remove several cooldowns of your character for example. There are really not enough items which do that. Zombi dogs for example can get their cooldown reduced. But why not some of the more powerfull spells and characteristics as well like the Berzerker? Or the Archon? And so on. Making some items more then just a "oh, trifecta! How nice!"
Good post, unfortunately Blizzard isn't going to make any major changes to itemization. Why? Because:

a.) simple bland item stats allow the RMAH to be utilized more as players can more easily determine what items are upgrades

or

b.) any major changes in itemization will make the crybabies cry about spending $$$ on items only to have them suddenly turn obsolete or outdated

It's just infuriating when the RMAH cockblocks the potential for the game to be vastly improved.
I decided to look at your profile and it appears the only hero you have is a level 1 WD. Which tells me two things:

You're just Blind. Check out the sweet choco chick by the name of Europe.
02/28/2013 03:10 PMPosted by Noxifer
Noxifer, EU

Why then are you not in favor of revamping the game? I'm confused

I am playing the game. I enjoy a great deal of things, and while I do think that some things are in need of revamp, I see that Gosu is talking about things, which he clearly knows nothing about.

I like me my Pile on Skill and I have found a very efficient use for it. I don't want to see it go.

02/28/2013 05:27 PMPosted by Ðragonslayer
In a game that had absolutely ZERO pvp for the longest time

Wrong. The game had PvP and had an internal PvP strike team. Many changes in the beta from September 2011 till early Devember 2011 screamed PvP.
02/28/2013 05:27 PMPosted by Ðragonslayer
You have no clue child.

Clearly you're the one without a clue.
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Did you read my post? There are a TON of suitable alternatives to cooldowns to impose drawbacks to certain skills or prevent them from being abused. Cooldowns are, overall a terribly unfun and non-creative method in accomplishing this.

I did and I very much enjoyed it.

You're right though, there are other ways. One of these ways is to incorporate build synergy among skills in order to create something similar to a casting rotation in WoW. However, I still think some cooldowns are necessary.

The only difference in my opinion to Blizzard's on the subject is that CD's should be reserved for the most powerful of skills.

No "normal" type skill that does minimal damage or has a minimal lasting effect should have a CD longer than 5 seconds.

I'm not saying that all of the Cooldowns are justified with their current numbers, but there are still a majority of skills that still need to retain a CD.

02/28/2013 05:42 PMPosted by Ðragonslayer
Cooldowns turn this game into World of Warcraft. Anything that can be done to reduce or negate them is a okay in my book. Especially cooldowns on potions.

No thank you. When I used potions in TL2, it simply turned into a point where I was basically just using a potion every 6 seconds to keep up my life regeneration.

If you completely removed the CD on potions they'll simply turn into items that you stop to buy every 30 minutes or so that you spam constantly so you can play MP10 with really terrible gear.

Potions are there to save your life in a bind. Not to be a spammable source of health regeneration.
Edited by Drothvader#1215 on 2/28/2013 5:53 PM PST
Thanks for proving that with having so many flaws, It would be easier to make an entire new game instead of implementing solutions which will indeed mean an entire new game.

I still think that your post is well thought and spot on. You really did a good job pointing out what is wrong, why it is wrong. But still the fact that I had to read an entire wall of text for an hour(which has been shortened by you) about flaws in this game is simply tragic. That being said by most of people that read your post; your post is brilliant, However I really recommend you to use this kinda of skill and understanding somewhere else which won't be a waste of your time.
Edited by DarkSoul#1238 on 2/28/2013 5:53 PM PST
I'm happy I finally got around to reading this one.

Gosu, I would really love to spend endless hours playing YOUR version of D3. It sounds like a hell of a lot of fun.

Nothing to add or remove. Like what you've come up with here.

Count me as a fan :)
Some more as to why I would not like Gosu as a developer.

Sigh, more demonstrations of an utter lack of understanding. Non of the skill examples you gave supported your argument in the slightest.

Continuously refuses to make and exact quote about the specific information and why I don't understand the game.
I n my original post I hinted about the skill rune "Cinder Arrow", which is the Hungering Arrow with the highest proc coefficient of them all. I use either Cinder Arrow or Shock collar for self healing (shock collar has I think the highest proc coefficient for Demon Hunters, 1.6 if I remember correctly.) These skills have their use, just because Gosu doesn't know it doesn't change the fact.

02/28/2013 05:38 PMPosted by Gosu
You think that because you can one shot someone in a PVP match with pile on that it's a "great" skill?

Yep. Exactly. The skill is freaking awesome!
This game wasn't even designed with the goal of balancing for PVP. In fact the exact opposite. It's been stated several times that PVP would not affect any important elements of the PVE game experience. Designing a skill solely around PVP is the exact opposite of this statement.

What they said was, that they can balance the skills for PvP without that ever affecting the PvE game, because they've got the means to have two separate tooltios for the same skill.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=_E452S_fJwA#t=658s
Some skills were meant to be retooled for PvP.
02/28/2013 05:38 PMPosted by Gosu
I'm not saying you don't understand the game because you disagree with me, I'm saying you don't understand it because of the demonstrations you given

Specific examples, please.
....That's the exact reason I am posting. I wasn't thrilled when last year Kripparrian decided to make suggestions, which were later implemented, namely the Paragon system.
I think that system did more harm than good. While this again a subject for another thread, I am gonna mention that one of the very negative things about the Paragon system was that it gave Blizzard... I would say the excuse not to address the drops and the itemization. How so?

Prior to the implementation of the Paragon system the players could farm for like eight hours straight and get nothing, even lose gold to repair bills. After the implementation of the Paragon system the players could and still can get nothing after farming for eight hours straight, but at least would get few Paragon levels and some minor stats improvement. That made it so that the actual issues were never addressed.
What actual issues you might ask? I find an issue with any game, which makes so that you better go to a day, eight hour job in order to succeed in the game instead of actually playing the game for eight hours.

While our Gosu seems to have noble intentions and is working to finally solve those issues, It seems to me that he's gonna cause harm to the game along the way. Call me troll, tell me "You don't understand", but please, do take what I say into account. Just keep it in mind.


The above quoted text is exactly why this is a pretty good troll...hhhmmmm 8/10?? would be fair I say.

Your solutions to problems or issues you have with other peoples "fixes" aren't crafted around constructive ideas that "fix" things. You seem to rather want to point fingers and create problems that never existed...." farm for like eight hours straight and get nothing, even lose gold to repair bills"...where did that come from?

First, the Paragon system was less about itemization, and more about progression or the lack there of. Its real intention, if you were paying attention, was to negate the need for MF endgame, and allow for better customization at the top (though I would argue that there may have been better solutions). It never stopped Blizzard from addressing the item problem, hell the next big patch was all about items...maybe not the best thought out plan....but at least its a step in the right direction for some in certain crowds (non AH and some Hardcore fans).

I choose to believe that they still understand the problem with the affix system and the HUGE problem with legendary items still not being legendary. I for one think they need to take a look at some of the very cool low level item abilities they created but get left behind and apply them at the top end with appropriate scale for power. Weapon summoning abilities alone are a joke and with just a little tweak could have legitimate impact on choice.

But...lets get something straight...

I agree with your stance that Gosu's ideas aren't all perfect. He/she did however put alot of effort into the post with some very constructive ideas, and has every right to be called a gamer. As do you, and I would humbly submit, myself. Ok...maybe not so humbly =)

8/10 though....8/10....very good effort.
Posts: 100
A resume would have been more productive and taken less of your life to accomplish.

Read that?
Not if you paid me.

You may not think so but the title of your novel will drive any developer from reading it.
It's insulting all the work they put into it, beyond the fact that you place yourself in a "Jesus" role.

To anyone that hates this game enough to read all that... its called obsession.
Like movie star/ex-girlfriend stalking, creepy obsession.
Lock you up in the real world obsession.

I'll take my Jesus without the Cheeto fingers and orange junk though, thanks.
it's easier to save your time than to save this carcass of a game
02/28/2013 05:48 PMPosted by Drothvader
No thank you. When I used potions in TL2, it simply turned into a point where I was basically just using a potion every 6 seconds to keep up my life regeneration.

02/28/2013 05:55 PMPosted by Ðragonslayer
Which was pretty much how it was in d1 and d2. Isn't broke, didn't need fixing.

Then go and play Diablo2 potion spam fest and leave Diablo3 to those who enjoy it. I love Diablo2, but the game was extremely easy, at least with casters.

And just for the record it was actually the players, which wanted the change. They wanted the game to become very, very hard. There can't be no difficulty if there's a potion spam.
But even difficulty aside, the potion spam was and still is a very stupid thing. No real gameplay.

You clearly want Diablo3 to become just as faceroll as Diablo2 was. I am against.

Blizzard already caused a number of problems when they listened to self proclaimed knowitall "developers", I am just saying that we should think twice, before we support the next self appointed savior of the game.
Edited by Noxifer#2606 on 2/28/2013 6:22 PM PST
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