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However, if you have a system where items can inspire builds and class balance is not in a position where 2-5 builds stand miles above the rest, then an all around BiS piece of gear is literally impossible. It's impossible because, in a properly designed game, the affixes on one awesome item will not support the build that you are going for as well as the affixes on another item would.
Look I see you missed my point. Even though your other reply about NP. I still say if not careful that NP could be the new +skills. The devs have to work out the numbers if they use it.
Now on to what I mean about being BiS. BiS gear is gear that is truly the best in the slot for not only your class but your build as well. Regardless of the game or the system used. It just so happens that there is only one BiS for all classes and builds, there might be some exceptions.
Even if you had more gear choices and better affixes where players would go for different affixes than the norm. You will still have a BiS and only one BiS for whatever class and build you are playing. You said it yourself, so you know it is mathematically impossible to have two BiS pieces of, we'll say shoulder pieces, for a Exploding Palm monk. You might have alternatives but not two truly BiS pieces of gear for the same slot, class and spec.
At this point, you're running the risk of sounding like a troll. This last post was mostly argumentative in nature and did not provide additional points, data, or suggestions.
I'm not saying that your thoughts are wrong, correct, stupid, or otherwise invalid, but please use your posts to offer counterpoints rather than just saying other people are wrong.
What many of us like about Gosu's post is that he keeps spinning things toward being constructive and I'd like to see you continue posting but in less ad-hominem ways.
At this point, you're running the risk of sounding like a troll. This last post was mostly argumentative in nature and did not provide additional points, data, or suggestions.
I am contributing in my own small way. I am saying that Blizzard actually listened several times already and we should think for a second this time, before making the new list of demands.
What is good for one is not necessarily good for another.
Troll or no troll, at least I am not pretending to speak for anyone else, but myself.
You don't get to speak for anyone else, but yourself! At the very least, you don't speak for me and no one appointed you as the sole speaker for the whole player base.
You do realize that we, the forum posters are a vocal minority, right?
Aha. Let me see if I got this right.
Just because many people suck at this game, let's just turn the whole game on itself, so that we may have more healthy environment for them. Oh and yes, it was me who !@#$ed up this game. Sure, and just in between I caused some hunger, the economic crisis and the global warming.
Edited by Noxifer#2606 on 2/28/2013 6:53 PM PST
Thanks for taking the time to put your thoughts on paper for us. There are a lot of topics here that deserve attention and I want to share our views on them with all of you. Stay a while and listen.
Challenge is certainly something that has value; players can’t feel a sense of accomplishment if everything in the game can be face rolled. I think many people would agree that, at launch, the game was too challenging. It was very difficult to progress through Inferno depending on your class or items and the challenge was a large part of the reason players felt like they were driven to the AH in the first place. When you present players with difficult content they will find a way to overcome it which usually means using only the most powerful items and abilities. The unfortunate side effect is it also drives players away from the play styles they feel are “just fun”. We have taken steps to improve this problem a number of ways; reducing the overall difficulty of Inferno, improving the potency of underused skills to allow players more diversity in their gameplay, and introducing Monster Power to allow players to set the game to a level which they feel is enjoyable. I think the right way to introduce challenge is to make it optional, for example having difficult content for the players that enjoy it without penalizing the players who prefer a more relaxed gameplay experience.
Items and AH
Items are a topic with a tremendous amount of depth and also a very sensitive subject, so I’ll do my best to provide some of our insights into the matter. Removing “bad” affixes is certainly a suggestion that surfaces from time to time, another suggestion is to group all the good affixes into a shared category so that they can’t all roll on the same item. I think on the surface those sound good but the reality of what they would do to the itemization isn’t what we want. I addressed the topic of the “bad” affixes in a prior post about items so I won’t go into too much more detail here, but I think it’s well within our ability to make those affixes compelling for some people, Pickup Radius and Witch Doctors are a good example of this. Specifically as it relates to Thorns, no one will disagree that in its current state is pretty lackluster, but it supports a play style that I’m sure we can capture with enough alterations to both the core mechanic and some supporting class abilities and passives.
As it relates to bucketing affixes so Crit Chance, Crit Damage, and Attack Speed are mutually exclusive, yeah that would add more choice to item selection, but it would be artificial. I think this issue has some underlying causes that we should look at before going to the extreme of preventing them from existing on the same item. One of the first reasons trifecta items are an issue isn’t that they are so good; it’s that they are the only thing that is good. Of course you want the only three stats that increase your character damage in a meaningful way on the same item, because there are ONLY three stats that increase your character damage in a meaningful way other than your primary stat. I don’t want to derail this by getting into why primary stats were introduced or debate whether they are good or bad. I do want to say that Diablo 3 has been through much iteration during which a vast number of approaches to stats and items were tested and in the end we felt primary stats were the right thing for Diablo 3. I think a better approach to this issue is to introduce more affixes that players are interested in, so there is a sense of tension over what the six affixes are on your “ideal gear”. When a perfect pair of gloves is “Core Stat, Vit, Res All, Crit Chance, Crit Dmg, Attack Speed” and you can’t even imagine another stat you would want instead of one of those, we have a bigger problem. Introducing more choice instead of less and giving players more ways to feel like they are customizing their character is what we want to see. If gloves also had the ability to roll +% School Damage, +Life on Hit, Skill specific affixes, plus a couple more things you want, than players may find themselves in a situation where trifecta isn’t as clearly defined anymore.
The “problem” with trifecta items can’t be discussed without also pointing out that it is only a problem because the AH makes obtaining these items so easy. On a basic level, I have no problem with items existing that players highly desire, but when it is a forgone conclusion that you will have those items then we have problems. If the auction house never existed, players wouldn’t be upset that trifecta exists, they would be upset that they haven’t been lucky enough to find their own trifecta items. To summarize, I think the right solution to this problem isn’t cutting trifecta items from the game, but rather it’s about getting to a point where you want more things than you can fit on an item.
I think your affix ideas are cool, and we have spent a lot of time lately talking about what kind of awesome effects we could put on items that we don’t currently have. I’d even say that as cool as some of these ideas are, we can go even further. We are putting a lot of effort into coming up with really awesome item ideas for future content. I’ll give one quick example of my personal favorite so far before moving on and also to give context to the direction we are moving in. Imagine a pair of Legendary boots that read “Makes you ethereal, allowing you to freely move through enemies”. Whether or not that idea makes the final cut is hard to say, but we want to really push the boundaries as much as we can, so legendary items become things that players can get really excited about.
Your system idea for Nephalem Power Stat is basically a roundabout way of suggesting we re-implement the Diablo 2 skill system. The old skill system was fun, back in the day, but I think it’s honestly dated in today’s landscape. People fondly remember making tons of characters and trying out different builds, and while I have a lot of those same fond memories, I also remember that usually the end result of my time investment in my “cool new character” was complete and utter disappointment.
Today the availability of web sites or posts about character builds would mostly overshadow any of that old character rerolling. You would read a post saying someone else tried the build that you had imagined would be amazing, only to find out it was awful, or you would find out it was great and build it also. The skill system today allows people the flexibility to try out things they enjoy without penalizing players who want to experiment with new ideas. The only difference is if their idea doesn’t pan out, you didn’t waste hours leveling a bad character.
Character customization is fun. People want more ways to feel different from their neighbor, and we want to help provide players with more options in this regard as well. There are lots of things that we have discussed and some ideas we have for long term system additions to the game to help in this regard. One of them which I mentioned in another post is the plan to eventually introduce a system to allow players to customize their character appearance more. Another system we haven’t talked about before is the long term plan to change the way the Paragon system works to allow it to offer more character customization in the form of actual power. The details of that system are still being worked out and players probably won’t get their hands on it for quite a while. We do agree that customization is important and we want more ways for players to both express themselves and differentiate themselves from their friends and other members of the community.
Too many items
I cover this topic in some depth in the upcoming Item Blog that community is in the process of getting ready for release next week. I will briefly say that we agree that too many items drop and we have plans to eventually reduce the rate that players see items, while also taking measures to improve the general quality of items you do see. The end result should be fewer items that are better instead of tons of items you don’t want.
Legendary and Set items
This is a topic I’ve touched on some in this thread and it is also a talking point of the upcoming Item Blog, so I’ll just say that we agree and we want Legendary items to feel game changing.
Finding your own gear
Whenever we talk about what the fantasy of Diablo is and what we want the core gameplay to be, never do we say “we want players to farm gold and go buy items off the auction house”. The AH definitely has made an impact on Diablo 3 and we talk about it constantly, but our conversations are usually in the context of “how can we get players to find their own loot instead of just buying it”. The new crafting recipes and Demonic Essences were added to provide a little bit of this gameplay but we have a lot of ideas for the long term about how we want to go about addressing this. At the end of the day, it is our intention that players are able to find their own items, because we feel the game is just more fun that way. There are several reason why it might not feel that way right now. One is the inherent randomness of our loot system. Another is the fact that the AH completely removes all friction between player trades. And another is when players DO find items they should be excited about, they are often disappointed because this items are not very good. All of these are very important and we hope to address them over time.
This is something we constantly strive to improve. Yes, there are a lot of runes and abilities that are lacking, but as you can see with our patches, we try over time to improve the balance of them regularly. In some cases runes are designed just to be fun or cool. In other cases, we try to make a large spectrum of runes competitive, but the math ends up favoring one over the others. In some cases, certain abilities or ability combinations are so potent that they overshadow almost every other option available. WW/Sprint/Battle Rage is a good example of this. There are some cool ideas here, but I don’t want to turn this post into a discussion about specifics of design. This is a problem that we can’t fix overnight, but we are confident that over time we can constantly improve the situation and hopefully the community can see that we are making efforts on this front with every patch we release.
What crafting was meant to be and what it ended up being aren’t necessarily the same. Again there are a long list of reasons why it turned out to be a bit underwhelming for some people. Not the least of which is the existence of the AH. Why make random things when you can buy exactly what you are looking for? We are constantly exploring new ideas for how to make crafting more relevant and trying to carve out a more defined role for it within the scope of Diablo 3 itemization. We have discussed ideas such as letting players have some control over what stats will appear on the item they are crafting, using the crafting system to allow players to reroll the values of affixes an item already has, etc. This is a system that, with time, should be able to find a better place in the overall gameplay experience of Diablo.
This is an area that has a lot of room for improvement. I personally used to talk about the fact that when I would play with my brother and two of my good friends, I constantly felt like they were a detriment to my ability to farm, which is at the core of my enjoyment of the Diablo series. Since then, we have made changes to improve the coop experience like reducing the health multiplier of additional players and removing the damage scaling when more players join the game. However, we need to do more to improve both the in and out of game experience. We want it to be easier for players to find other like-minded people to play with and this is a topic we are actively trying to improve in the near future.
Ok I’ve reread this thing enough times that my brain is starting to melt. The Diablo team is incredibly passionate and constantly striving to make the game we love even better. I hope this post helps clear the air about where we stand on a lot of these topics and I also hope I never find myself never feeling the need to write a post this long again lol.
TLDR – Travis has crit Gosu with Wall of Text for 1 Billlllllllion damage.
Edited by Travis Day on 2/28/2013 6:58 PM PST
@Travis Day: You just totally improved my perception of Blizzard by about one million percent. Thank you for not only looking at this thread, but also reading it, and providing extensive commentary.
Keep it up and you'll win us all back in no time. We're suckers for you and just wanted to know you still loved us
I did and I very much enjoyed it.
We're in perfect agreement then.
I don't think cooldowns should be removed entirely. You just can't have uber powerful abilities without factoring in cooldowns in some form. I am simply in favor of avoiding cooldowns when other methods of "restriction" are possible. Frankly, I think that roughly 95% of the cooldowns in this game should either be removed entirely or drastically reduced.
Deleted what I originally posted before I get banned for expressing my feelings on how LAME the social features are in this game.
Edited by ELPRESADOR#1983 on 2/28/2013 7:57 PM PST
Great to see your post.. Love it love. I am a casual player and a D2 gamer also...please keep up the ideas, love the idea of the boots enableing you to pass thru enemies. maybe it wont get to the final but at least it is brought up in a conversation.. As you know your reply wont fully answer my answer on the game but that is allright cause you are the game designer.. challenge me and fellow players on your game design and thoughts what D3 should encompass.. I have always supported Blizzard North and will also ask your team Blizzard South to keep up the work. As David B. stated in his interview.. You guys are in charge of this Epic game series and your team will strive to make D3 not to compete with the two former Diablo games but to add to it's originality. Whatever your team comes out hold true to its lore and even the players that dont like D3 will find a way to be part of the game. For that is the true challenge of a players, to make the best of the game design that is presented to the players.
That is not at all what Travis said. He provided very well thought out responses to Gosu for his constructive feedback.
I frankly am loving the idea of a legendary that turns me into an ethereal and allows me to walk through enemies :D
Also love the idea regarding making crafting more relevant to the stats we want to see, making gear have more than just stats and adding better affixes, and increasing the chance to see cool items drop on the ground rather than mountains of junk.
This is great stuff.
Thank you gosu for taking the time to put your thoughts to text. I can honestly say that reading your post got me almost as excited about d3 as I was around the time of release.
And thank you Travis for such an awesome reply. It's stuff like this that really show us how much you guys care about your games.
A couple times in your response, it seemed as though you begrudgingly accept the existence of the AH. I think it sucks as well, sir.
Perhaps the way the way it operates needs to be altered, or maybe it would be best to just remove them entirely and introduce a new and better form/method of trading.
You're batting 2 for 2 so far. Where have you been all my D3 life? :0)
Seriously? The only thing he agreed with Gosu about was the lack of skill diversity and the overabundance of items. Other than that, all he did was acknowledge some problems and drop a hint about a blog post.
You're excited for the proc effect of one legendary item? Proves to me that A) you've never played WD and B) you're a sycophant.
Nice name btw, really expresses you.
This. I really don't want "more" of this in a Diablo game. You start making easy ways for one person to find everything they need on their own and that becomes THE way to get items. Players can already "find their own gear"... you may have to make a " trade" in the process but you are still finding your own gear. You find an item on the ground... you find the person to trade with... you find the item you want from them... and you trade. YOU did all of that. I don't see how this is a problem. Instead of making it easier for players to not have to play the game the way its meant to be played... how about fixing the social features. Allow for "trade bulletins"... something like an Auction House where players can post what they have and what they need. Then players could contact each other and make trades. This would "not be using the AH" and it would not be more dumbing of the game with more BoA crap.
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