Diablo® III

The Salvation of Diablo 3: A Guide by Gosu

Posts: 14,137
View profile
03/01/2013 07:56 AMPosted by CapnDingo
In other words, nothing we say ever seems to be able to change Blizzard's plans once those plans have been made, and even if the plans are bad, they are set in stone and no amount of player backlash will result in a change, almost as if the lead designer regularly makes bad decisions and the other developers working on the game are stuck in the bad position of having to make excuses for those bad decisions to stroke his/her ego at all costs.

I would dare say that their actions will show what they will be using from his comment. Also I say that they have already said that they have made mistakes. But they will not abandon their original vision for the game.

I will tell you what you can do if you truly are a game developer. You can implement every suggestion on the forums. In fact throw out your vision for the game. And get a new one entirely based on the posts on the forums. Tell me just how well that would go. When your game will be going in 10,000 different directions.

I am glad that Blizz has a vision for the game and will not abandon it. Then decide to base their vision entirely on what is said on the forums. Sorry but that would take the game in around 10k different directions. As a rule we have a difficult time agreeing on any given subject.
03/01/2013 02:20 PMPosted by whoopadeedoo
You gave us very narrow-minded scenarios of what would happen based simply on how D3 is designed right now

How so? I gave you an example of team-based synergy, which you seemed to agree with at the end of your post:
Team synergies is a whole other matter. It's a good thing and we need more of it.

That's because there is no skill and affix synergies because there is no skill system or interesting itemization. Heck, the fact that elemental damage means absolutely nothing should throw up all kinds of red flags.

I don't disagree with you here at all. I would also like to see elemental damage mean something other than a nerfed weapon (the connection between +elemental damage % and physical damage is another issue). But, it still has no connection to anything that I said, and seems as if you are being condescending as a weak means of making your point.

Further, I still don't see the need for a labyrinthine skill tree system to create synergy between items and skills. Couldn't you accomplish the same goal that you describe by adding a modifier to existing skills runes? For example, if a rune gives a skill a certain elemental damage type, like Cinder Arrow to Hungering Arrow, wouldn't that accomplish your goal if +elemental damage bonus were a more widespread affix rather than being regulated to few items, and worked like it says in the tool-tip?

The synergies in D3 are really shallow and trivial. This is a game where you can pretty much tell everyone to get more crit, attack speed, and main stat to improve their build. Snoooooooooze.

Again, I don't disagree with you. How would you suggest it be improved upon?

03/01/2013 02:18 PMPosted by Deegsz
Looks like I struck a nerve - do my words ring too much truth for you?

Stop being dramatic. That kind of hyperbole serves no one, in addition to being the most cliche to a dissenting viewpoint encountered on the internet ever.

03/01/2013 02:18 PMPosted by Deegsz
Oh by the way on your post - you don't have to re-level "toons" anymore in D2. Since patch 1.13 you can reset stat points.

Which is great addition, and which almost no one who pines for the return of skill trees acknowledges. And seeing as how this is the case, what is the difference? You either choose some arbitrary skill because it on the path to something you really want, or you choose a rune that changes (sometimes drastically) the effective nature of the skill to suit your needs. Either way, you end in the same place.
Edited by EddardStark#1833 on 3/1/2013 3:37 PM PST
I want to thank Travis for his post. I am very excited about what is coming and what direction D3 is going according to Travis.
Please sticky this.

And by sticky, I mean print it on poster board, and sticky it to the walls of the dev team conference room.

Or reduce it to micro-dot, and sticky it to the inside of their eyelids.

6 of one......
Perhaps this has been brought up before, but now that Monster Power exists is it time to try and re-introduce meaningful adventuring stats onto gear? One big reason mf/gf was weened off of gear as people leveled up was because inferno was just too difficult to farm with high mf/gf taking up affix slots. There's still potential to add gear diversity by making people budget for DPS/EHP/Adevnturing and then tweaking the MP accordingly, I believe.
Goku - much appreciation for the time effort and thought to put this all together.

Travis - much appreciation for such a detailed response. While I (and others) don't see eye to eye on some of your responses to the issues Goku raised, seeing such an open and involved reply from a "blue" is definitely a big step in the right direction.

I would like to add, as I have in many other posts, that in your plans for the future of items please take this into consideration! http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/9989/infographiclarge.png

yes the end is a little over-dramatic, but I think the core message is highly relevant

Eddard, the two "realities" you offered in your original post is what I was responding to. Those scenarios are based on viewing D3 in its current (stale) state, but I'm saying it doesn't have to be this way.

You're right, it doesn't. How would you suggest the skill system be re-worked to match your vision of the way it doesn't have to be? If you have already made a thread about this, please direct me there, and I look forward to reading it.

My "scenarios" were based on the reality that would exist if Blizz were to have simply copied the skill tree idea from older ARPGs. If I am wrong, explain what else would happen if we had skill trees.
Edited by EddardStark#1833 on 3/1/2013 3:42 PM PST
Agreed. WOW has already been created. Modified and streamlined. Skill trees will STILL ultimately bring us back to a !@#$% point when the math is fleshed out BLA BLA and FFS BLA. Are the mobs in D3 in a map build designed to be weak to a single elemental damage?
02/28/2013 06:58 PMPosted by Travis Day
Another system we haven’t talked about before is the long term plan to change the way the Paragon system works to allow it to offer more character customization in the form of actual power.

I am excited about your ideas for powering up Paragon levels. I don't know if your thoughts are similar to mine, but this is what I was thinking:

Every Paragon level you gain extra bonuses, other than 3% magic/gold find and the few stats. Here's what else you would receive:
*10 Life Regen per Second
*0.2 Pickup Radius
*10 Life on Hit
*100 Thorns (This may need to be deflated once improvements to thorns has been made)
*1% Crit Damage
*0.1% Crit Chance
*0.1% Attack Speed
*0.06% Life Steal
*100 Extra Health from Potions and Globes
*0.13% Movement Speed

I would also be ok with receiving 2-3 "Paragon Points" to spend on 2-3 of the choices up above each level. That would give each player a sense of customization (since that is the section the quote is from) but not lock people into specific builds. Anyone can beat the game on Inferno regardless of how they use their Paragon Points, but they can become godly when using them. There also would be a cap of 100 points per skill bonus.

I think that you should be able to add passive slots at plvl 50 and 100, for a total of 5 passives at once at plvl 100. Many times, there are too many good options to choose from, but only the elite should have access to this many of them.

Also, once you reach plvl 100, you should be able to pick a shrine as a 7th skill slot. These shrine bonuses would stack with other shrines, but be permanent buffs (until you switch to a different one).

The main reason I would like to see these buffs is because right now, you are totally dependent on gear to survive. Nobody can successfully play inferno "naked" because all your damage comes from gear. With these buffs, you could manage on your own, at least for some of the difficulties, and isn't that how it should be considering you're a nephalem?
I have a point to make here.

I notice that when someone like Gosu makes a generally good post with hours of, let's face it, work put in, chock full of great ideas, everyone tends to agree that implementing most of those ideas would make the game go from okay to excellent.

Good. No problem there.

But then a Blizzard guy makes a post, and no matter how much of that unmistakable brand of Blizzard double talk they use, half the people in the thread are automatically hopeful, happy, and satisfied regardless of what the content of the post is, just because the text is blue, because apparently we're so starved to read blue text that we read it with the rosiest of rose-tinted glasses.

Travis did not agree with everything Gosu said, and in fact based almost all of his counterpoints on a total misunderstanding of what Gosu said. Whether that misunderstanding is deliberate or not I don't know, but I know Blizzard double talk when I see it. All I do know is that nobody else had an issue understanding what Gosu meant.

You never, ever, ever see a Blizzard developer say "You're right, we messed that up, and we couldn't think of how to fix it but clearly your idea is unanimously accepted by the community so we want to try that out immediately."

Instead, it's "We're not going to change this, despite the fact that 99% of the community is saying it would enhance the quality of the game, because it doesn't fit what we were already planning on doing."

In other words, nothing we say ever seems to be able to change Blizzard's plans once those plans have been made, and even if the plans are bad, they are set in stone and no amount of player backlash will result in a change, almost as if the lead designer regularly makes bad decisions and the other developers working on the game are stuck in the bad position of having to make excuses for those bad decisions to stroke his/her ego at all costs.

For instance, when Travis said that "we intentionally made a lot of runes pointless", it reeks of that "working as intended" line people get fed in the World of Warcraft forums when something is broken but Blizzard's plans don't include fixing it.

Itemization is bad.
"Working as intended."

Remove bad affixes.
"Can't, they're working as intended."

Everything is so based on what they originally intended that they can't see that maybe what they intended to do isn't what's right.

I'm not going into specifics, but I'm a game developer. Independent. I've released one game so far for retail consumption, and the second I heard outcry that people wanted an online versus mode, I stayed up until 3 AM every day for 2 weeks implementing it, because almost everyone wanted it. Even though it didn't fit the original plan for the game I had envisioned, it worked out very well and people were satisfied with the outcome. In other words, even as a longtime gamer and game developer, I don't always know what's right and I need a community to tell me.

So when I see Travis say that "We'd never implement something like Nephalem Power, because first off it's not already Part Of The Plan™, but also because we think players having control over allocating points into something is antiquated and not fun."

Then every single player under the sun says "It's not antiquated, and it would be a lot of fun."

But because of the stubborn belief (a possibly wrong belief) of one single developer or one lead designer, it won't happen.

I agree with most of what you said but I knew going into this that I wasn't going to earn a seat at the dev table. As much as I'd love to have an actual hand in the further direction of this game, Blizzard is going to do what they think is best. I don't work for them and there's only so much influence I can have, unfortunately. Hopefully they will take my OP and the response I gave to Travis seriously and give some real consideration to the ideas.

Getting a somewhat lengthy dev response was more than I expected, even if some of it did seem to miss many of the points I was trying to make. I wasn't happy about the response to the proposed Nephalem Power system. Some people might think this is simply because he doesn't agree, but in reality it's because I'm not sure he understands the system fully, or at least I don't think he gave it a fair chance before typing his response. The specifics as to why I think that are in my direct response to Travis. It's on page 26 somewhere if anyone cares to read it.

In closing, I want to thank everyone for the support they've shown. I will continue to read all of the responses and respond whenever I can :)
This is why I used Belial as an example in my "challenge" section. Challenge is about MUCH more than how fast the majority of monsters can kill you or how long it takes you to kill them.

I really love that Travis actually answered on this thread and I'm so happy that he took time to thoroughly address the post. HOWEVER, he definitely missed some key points. Not sure if that is deliberate or if he did not read it carefully.

He totally did not understand what Gosu said on a number of things, especially in terms of the challenge section. Gosu is NOT talking about increasing difficulty with hit points (monster power), he means increasing difficulty with tactical challenges. He made such great points about this and it bothers me that it was ignored.

Before I start, I also want it to be known that I enjoy Diablo 3 and I don’t feel it is a bad game in the slightest. Quite the opposite actually, I think it is a fine and enjoyable game. I do, however feel that it falls quite short of its potential.

if diablo 3 isn't a bad game in the slighest then it you wouldn't need to write up 10 pages on what's wrong with it would you.
03/01/2013 03:44 PMPosted by Zyron
Your system idea for Nephalem Power Stat is basically a roundabout way of suggesting we re-implement the Diablo 2 skill system. The old skill system was fun, back in the day, but I think it’s honestly dated in today’s landscape.

You're wrong Travis.
Ppl are bored to death w/ the current system, it did'nt, I will repeat, it did'nt work,
We played Lod for years, not one friend I play this genre w/ still logs in...

+ 1 trilion. LOL
"I waited fifteen hundred years for this. Should I return to my slumber? "

-If they don't listen now,you should.:)

Gosu,ty for your time and excellent answers you had here.+1 billion.:)
I cover this topic in some depth in the upcoming Item Blog that community is in the process of getting ready for release next week. I will briefly say that we agree that too many items drop and we have plans to eventually reduce the rate that players see items, while also taking measures to improve the general quality of items you do see. The end result should be fewer items that are better instead of tons of items you don’t want.
Finding your own gear

Whenever we talk about what the fantasy of Diablo is and what we want the core gameplay to be, never do we say “we want players to farm gold and go buy items off the auction house”. The AH definitely has made an impact on Diablo 3 and we talk about it constantly, but our conversations are usually in the context of “how can we get players to find their own loot instead of just buying it”. The new crafting recipes and Demonic Essences were added to provide a little bit of this gameplay but we have a lot of ideas for the long term about how we want to go about addressing this. At the end of the day, it is our intention that players are able to find their own items, because we feel the game is just more fun that way. There are several reason why it might not feel that way right now. One is the inherent randomness of our loot system. Another is the fact that the AH completely removes all friction between player trades. And another is when players DO find items they should be excited about, they are often disappointed because this items are not very good. All of these are very important and we hope to address them over time.

So true and so true. Cant agree more with you about those two and cant wait for the upcoming fixes.
This topic has reached its post limit. You may no longer post or reply to posts for this topic.

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Explain (256 characters max)