Diablo® III

The Salvation of Diablo 3: A Guide by Gosu

I agreed with everything Travis had to say, except one thing, Character Customization (concerning trying new builds, switching on the fly, etc). The reason why, is that it doesn't feel unique to run a certain build. My biggest problem is that somebody will copy the build, claim it for themselves and make it widely known, drowning out the original owner/creator of said build.

I personally put a lot of time into my builds and ensure that it operates synergistically. There is a purpose for every skill and rune choice. It only takes one guy to come in and copy that to start using it and then said person will tell other people and lead to tinkering the build and destroying every choice that was put into designing that build.

There is no other game where I felt bad from being copied. Only in Diablo 3 it really affects me the wrong way. Builds are supposed to be accomplishments and the free selection destroys that sense of accomplishment.


What does the original player that came up with the build first, which btw would no doubt be hard to prove, have a copyright on the build. Where you have to ask his permission to even use it. No there are no copyrights on builds. You can use whatever build that you want to use. We all know which builds that were ours, ones that we came up with ourselves. Builds that we did not get online. Ones that are either a theme build that is just for fun or ones that are top of the line in efficiency.

The first one to come up with the build does not need any special prizes for coming up with it first. It does not belong entirely to him and him alone.

How will someone that tweaks the build a little to suit them, or even to improve efficiency destroy what the other player is doing. The player he copied from does not have to alter their build to match the new and improved version, unless they want to.
I will discuss EVERY major problem that exists in Diablo 3


Maybe other people probably mentioned this, but there's more problems to D3 than what you wrote. Easy example: no offline mode (in the PC version). Otherwise, good post.
GEMS
I don't see any Gems problem in here. When I first heard of socketed item, I thought it allows for easy weapon/armor customization for different situations. As it is now, I don't think any amount of new gem property will ever exceed Emerald. Having ruby buffed up doesnt help either since it is already highly sought for exp on helm and it still mainly just deal with dps instead of anything else. People gonna rage anyway if I suggest introduce new gems with different affix and reduce crit dmg.

ENEMIES
The problem with enemies are that most time the elites attack basically too random and generic at every stage. In TL2 you can customize what you wear say switch to an armor with high poison resist if you know you going to face a poison type monster. In D3, AR is the best choice because elites can atk using all elements regardless and as some pointed out, specific elemental resist that is lower than AR doesnt help the item selection except monks. Wish next expansion, they considered specific monster at different Act so we don't stick to the same build all the way.

AUCTION HOUSE
People may have problem with AH, but IMO, I think it's a fair feature for those who just want to get specific build with specific gear if they are willing to farm long enough. The problem I think lies in trading Gold with Real Money. Because Gold is easier to farm (with bots or paid China farmers) than finding specific gear and using it as yardstick to compare item value in RMAH. Gold will always be rock bottom as long gold keep churning up from RMAH, bots, and low repair cost.
Edited by CrazyM#1340 on 3/1/2013 6:43 PM PST
03/01/2013 01:27 PMPosted by Zoth
Gosu, what say you about +elemental damage on weapons? Let's say beyond D2.


I say that more interesting things could probably be done with it but I don't think it's an overly important issue considering the long list of issues I covered in my OP. I think the way weapons behave in general calls for some significant improvements. I also think that it's important to remember that, because of the weapon damage skill system, altering skills in such a way where the type of elemental damage roll can have a specific effect would be a tough thing to accomplish. Frost damage on weapons is obviously the one that comes to mind. I would definitely like to see elemental damage rolls play at least a partial impact on your selection of weapons, otherwise, what's the point? lol

That is what you were asking about, correct?

If you mean damage rolls in general, then I don't think they should exist as "potential" rolls. Damage rolls should be guaranteed on all weapons with the item level of that weapon deciding how high that damage roll will be. See my post for further explanation.
02/28/2013 06:58 PMPosted by Travis Day
TLDR – Travis has crit Gosu with Wall of Text for 1 Billlllllllion damage.


See, My TL:DR of this post would be;

"TL:DR Jay Wilson failed as a designer and we have to redesign the game from the ground up, so $$$$ that loser."
Totally love the ideas of the OP.
I have read Gosu's post and here are my comments on what he has said. +1 for the effort there. I'm glad some people take the time to really think about the game.

CHALLENGE:


Belial still is a nice challenge. It is my favourite boss because of the skill needed to beat it. Well for most builds. In v1.0 it was a little harsh though. With most builds being one shot (when you have good gear on) by a boss is never fun. I think Belial should be a touch harder then it is now but the boss meshanics work well.

Monster affixes are not impossible to avoid. I think it's quite the opposite. Even as a melee, avoiding frozen, plagued, arcane, molten etc is very easy. Just walk out of it. Frozen and the molten explosion even have very long delays. Making avoiding them very easy. Actually I'd prefer them to be more Diablo 2 like. Remove the delays so they occur instantly. Also now you can avoid shielding and reflect, just don't attach while both of them are up. And missile dampening can be easily worked to your favour.

So there's not much you can't avoid. Jailer, vortex, extra health is about it. I personally think if the timers are halved for frozen and totally removed for molten that'd make things better and you'd need more skill. Cause at the current point of time walking away from these affix effects is very easy.

Quests that are easier in co-op to me goes against the spirit of Diablo. This is not WoW where you have to form a raid to beat certain challenges. APart from a few achievements, everything in Diablo 3 can be done solo. And being in a party does not make things easier or tougher. And that's where it should stay. it's the players choice to play solo or co-op. They should not be forced to just to do some quest or part of the game.

Quests that require tons of mats to start? That's a good idea, but only as long as there's no RNG involved in gaining the mats. having to farm for ages for a quest and getting screwed by the RNG while farming is no fun. Sure Diablo is a RNG game but there has to be a limit to it. It reminds me of spell books in Diablo 1. If you didn't buy them all from Adria, you had to farm them with horrible RNG. And not being able to use X skill (or in your case do X quest) cause of bad RNG is not fun. Make loot and gambling RNG. But make skills and quests RNG free.

Itemization/Auction House:


The Diablo 3 item affixes are interesting.
The weapon system works well.
Junk items are good for vendor value. And one mans trash is another mans treasure, hence lots of AH value.
The legendary/set items are poor I'll agree. Cause they just feel like rares at the moment. Some better then rares and some worse.
The arrangement of affixes are fine.

I think the end result is being only a few ways to gear up. I mean if you want very high dps you have to stack Attack speed/crit/main stat. There's no other way to do it. if you want a high ehp you have to stack Armour/All resistance/vitality/life%. There is no other way to do it. SO in essence you are pigeonholed into one of the following options.
Follow the above and max out those affixes for very high dps and/or very high ehp.
Don't follow this and Have a character that is weaker.
There is only one way to min/max your characters for ehp and dps. And everyone knows it. Anbd if try to share a build that is fun and reasonably effective that does not follow the above the players just laugh at you cause you didn't min/max with the above stats. Diablo 3 in short needs alternate ways to min/max characters. Be it different stats of another way, I don't know.

The bore fest of items? That's because the AH has trained you to only look for the 1%. Items that should be good to you are being called boring cause you only want the best 1% that you saw on the AH. The blizzard blue post as touched on this issue. The need to make all items relatively interesting, not just the 1% best that people see on the AH.

I think regen is one affix that is very interesting and bucks the above trend. In high enough amounts it's very good and really helps you live longer. But 99% of players don't want it. I am aware you need to stack the affix high for it to be very good. But the potential is there.

Other affixes like say for example:
X% of damage (could be 50% or even 100%) is now Y element. As an example it could sound like this:
100% of the players damage is now fire based. How does this matter? You can use passives that work with your new damage type and the new damage type would have it's own benefits, like cold slowing things etc etc. Stuff like this would be interesting.

And who decides what a boring affix is? I think every affix in the game at the moment works. Just some of them are severely under powered like thorns for example. And some of them have no alternatives. Like no real alternative to getting very high dps apart from the trifecta. If there were multiple stat combinations to get high dps and high ehp. And people could choose they way and whoch stat combo they wanted to get their high dps and high ehp then that'd be good. And promote a lot more build diversity.

Your example ideas for better affixes are very nice. But they have to beat out what we already have. For example who would choose "Chance on skill use your next skill costs no resources" instead of say 250 main stat? No one. But as say a 4th or 5th affix on an item some of these would be good. If they were powerful enough to beat out the current affix combos people want now on their gear. I will say you are talking in the right direction here with these proposed affixes.

Nephalem Power points


World of Warcraft has something similar. Called Skill affix Mastery. The Mastery affix gives a different benefit to each class. But it's all the same affix. This is not exactly what you are talking about. But I think Diablo 3 could benefit from this. Oner affix, that effects each class differently and all of the 5 classes want it. SO you don't ever roll one for another class. So that's a way to make RNG work in the players favour.

Nephalem Power points as you put it are in a way mini skill points. And that does feel very Diablo 2. But if you remove all of the class specific affixes and just have one affix so you can choose your own bonus that reduces the number of affixes. Which makes the RNG more in the players favour (better odds to get what you want) but also feels like World of Warcraft Cata. Where so many of the good affixes and player traits were removed and simplified. And on the whole I feel it didn't work well in World of Warcraft. But in WoW everyone wants the same raid items so there's no real RNG in the loot, only RNG in loot drop%.

Diablo is a totally different beast, because we have RNG in loot quality and loot drop%. Does this make your Nephalem Power a better idea? Yes but . . . and this is a big but. You don't want to over simplify the affixes to the point where every 2nd affix is a multi class one or good for every build. As much as the we all hate the garmage affixes, they exist for a reason. We can't have every item dropping being useful. Then there'd be no incentive to farm the good items. Being able to go wow that's a good item that dropped to me is necessary. I don't want to get to a point where every drop is useful and you're just farming stuff that's 1% more useful then what you found before.

in saying this if there was a vote for Nephalem Power points would I vote yes for it? I think I would.

I think the Nephalem Power points should be gear based and not gained every level. Like an affix or a gem.

Poor Weapon System:


Problem - All weapons feel the same.
Reason - This is because we all use our skills and never our base weapon. And apart from attack speed no matter what weapon you use the attack animation is the same.
Solution - You propose different weapon specific bonuses? This is done in Median (Arguably the best DIablo 2 mod). I agree this really works well.

Making the damage of a weapon be base damage and attack speed only and not + damage etc etc. I think this is a good idea too. Sure add in an elemental attack type too or . . . just forget about it. Most skills have a base elemental attack type anyways. So all you need is X damage @ Y attack speed. And done. The skill you use determines the type of elemental damage done. (physical is considered an elemental damage type too)

Over Population of Items:


Items are overpopulated, pure and simple. Too many whites, too many blues, too many rares, yet still not enough legendaries

I kind of disagree here. I have been thinking about this. And I believe if items are improved and their drop rates lowered as the blizzard blues have been talking about, then keep the whites in. There HAS to be some junk drop. I'd rather the junk be blue or yellow. AH/vendor/salvage value. And if/when crafting is improved, then you'll be thankful for all the mats. Less item drops makes crafting more expensive if you consider time farming equal to money.

I don't see items I can't use as junk. I see them as gold. If people are lazy and refuse to pick loot, that's not blizzard's problem.

And secondly people cry over the mountains of junk. That's in part because some of it is junk and some of it is actually good but people go meh it's not the 1% and pass it by. The AH advertising the best the game has to offer does not help this at all. This is why any new affixes added to the game have to be able to compete with that's already on the AH. This will bring in more choice. And help the AH to be even better.

Poor Legendary/Set Piece System:


Gosu said a lot on this. But it can be summed up simply:

legendary/set items just feel like rare items at the moment. Some better and some worse then rares. And they are treated as such. Only stats on the item matter. And the best ones win. Legendary or not, does not matter. When a legendary drops we should be going wow cause it should be a really interesting item. Not necessarily better stats then rares. Just have fun effects.

I believe the 1.0.4 changes were on the right path but not did not take them far enough. Stuff like:

Legendary bows could fire ghost arrows or mini daggers instead of arrows.
Legendary weapons could turn you into a monster (looks only) for a minute.
Armour could have you spill a pool of blood or poison when hit.
An amulet for example could have you belch out a some poison gas or puke up some acid.

Just some ideas. Give the legendaries really flashy cosmetic only effects like these and I'm sure people would sue the legendaries just for the laughs.

Poor Arrangement of Affixes:


I'll sum this up as it's a really simple issue to understand.

Problem - There's only one way to get high DPS and only one way to get high EHP in the game.

Reason that problem exists - People insist that max efficiency is the only goal in the game. They refuse to even drop 1% of this efficiency for a fun and interesting alternative build. Hence they are pigeonholed into farming for the same affixes all the time.

Solution - Tough one. I'd say a combination of making people realise builds that are not the fastest in kill speed ever can be fun and to give people alternate ways to gear for high dps and high ehp. The former is a tough nut to crack. As people on the whole are a narrow minded bunch and refuce to see anything but their end goal of more dps/ehp. The latter is easier (but still not easy), to invent more competative affixes to the game.

PRIME POWER LOOT SYSTEM PROPOSAL:


How can this stop people going "the new BiS loot is with every affix with 2x prime power. You're just adding more RNG into what a BiS item is. I think it's nice in theory, and not so good in practice. If there was a vote on this I'd probably vote no to it.

Frankly, I think monster power 10 is way too easy. My Barb is worth between 1.5-2.5 billion and he can absolutely steam roll it. I do NOT consider myself in the very top tier of well geared players…not even close.

1.5 billion - 2.5 billion is a lot of gold. More then most people have or have ever had on their character in total from day 1. You are in the top tier of players if you spent that much on your gear. That or you bought a lot of overpriced crap. My total gear spend for my barbarian in 30 million. That's much more reasonable and closer to what most players have to spend. And based on this MP1-10 is just fine as it is. MP10 does not need to be harder. You do sound a little arrogant saying 1.5 - 2.5 billion can't net you some damn fine gear. It can. And it did for you. You are in the top <1%. The rest of us >99% don't have billions to spend on gear.

Improves the Enjoyment of the Item Hunt:

This is mentioned above. But I'll re-iterate.

1. Up loot quality slightly and reduce drop rate slightly.

2. Add fun affixes to legendaries like :
Legendary bows could fire ghost arrows or mini daggers instead of arrows.
Legendary weapons could turn you into a monster (looks only) for a minute.
Armour could have you spill a pool of blood or poison when hit.
An amulet for example could have you belch out a some poison gas or puke up some acid.

3. Add more affixes to the game. So there are alternate ways to get high DPS and high EHP.

4. Improve crafting so that even the unsellable junk can feel useful still for vendor gold or for crafting mats in a useful crafting system.

5. Transmogrification. So good looking junk has a use still.

Improves Player’s Ability to Find Their Own Loot:
This one is pretty obvious. When you’re constantly finding interesting pieces of gear presenting you with a wide variety of options, you no longer need to focus on obtaining a certain value of a limited number of KEY stats that makes the item hunt very difficult and drawn out and makes the player feel quite unlucky.


In theory that's great. But you can't have every item dropping being great. That's just handing you great loot all the time. Junk has to exist. So you are wowed wen the good item comes along. But if it was interesting junk (with a use still) and interesting usable items, that'd work well.

CLASS BALANCE AND VARIETY:

”Yes”. Literally the MAJORITY of skills and their rune variants are STILL utterly useless in nearly all aspects of the game

You are so wrong here it's not funny.
Yes some runes in this game suck. But some of them are very good. At the moment I'd say it's about 50/50. It's just a lot of people don't see the need for certain skills so they shove them off as crap without even using them.

One example. A good one.
Slow time. On SC I thought that was utter crap. Tried it and hated it. And never used it again on SC. Then I made a HC wizard, tried slow time again and to my surprise I really enjoyed the skill and found it to be so useful I can't HC on Wizard without it.

My point?
Some skills/runes either totally suck or are just underpowered compared to other skills. But other skills/runes are very good, just players refuse to use them on the whole. They have their cookie cutter build and never stray from it.

The issue here is not Blizzard or Diablo 3. it's the players and their narrow minds. If they only play cookie cutter min/max builds they'll never rally try out the other skills to see how they are. And will never try to make a build that incorporates them.

One quick note: Passive skills should ALL be capable of serving as foundational skills. While certain builds might be able to use certain passives to supplement them, the majority of passive skills should focus on changing the way players play the game

No no no. And a fourth no. Passive is passive for a reason. it's always on and you do nothing to activate it.

Changing the way players play? it almost feels like World of Warcraft specs. Like a warrior has fury or protection or arms. In a way I actually like this. High dps should be forced to feel a little glass. Pure tanks should not have 200k+ dps. And the 3rd is balanced somewhere in the middle.

You can’t say Diablo 3 has millions of potential builds when in reality there are a small fraction of that amount due to the fact that foundational skills create builds, while the buttload of supplemental skills existent in the game do just that, supplement them.

You can and Blizzard has. And I agree with Blizzard. No one ever said all of the builds had to greatly differ from one another or be viable builds.

Your idea of foundation skills I don't think Diablo 3 needs it. The runes we have work very well now. I say just stick with that.

Barbarian:

Barbs are powerful, no doubt(at least in comparison to other classes).

If I had a dollar for everyone who said Barbarians are super OP I'd be a very rich man indeed. And it's all utter crap. Barbarians just as balanced as every other class is.

Every single thing a Barb does relies on one simple skill. That skill is called Battle Rage: Into the Fray. Without this skill, we cannot hope to create any truly efficient builds.

I have. And many people I know have. That is simply not needed for many Barb builds. I don't know why you're even saying this. Sure WW barbs might need this for more fury generation, but other barbarians already have enough fury generation for their builds.
My barbarian
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/the8thark-1241/hero/1260535
Does not this battle rage rune. Does not even want it. Just one example. Barbarians get easily enough fury. Only WW barbs might need it. For everyone else it's just gravy.

Unfortunately, Into the Fray just makes nearly every alternative seem terrible.

Play barbarian more and you'll see how very wrong you are.

[/quote]Warcry/One shot Wonder:[/quote]
This promotes low MP farming. And a high dps. And secondly if you are one shotting things, why do you need 15% more dps? Overkill dps does nothing. Not a good idea. I like where it's going though. It's a nice idea though. Just you've had better ideas above/below.

Leap – Fatal Tremor:Fury Cost: 70. Damage from this skill cannot generate fury.

Nice skill in theory. I like it a lot. But why would I spend 70 fury for a losy 90% damage aoe when I can spend 50 fury for a 2 minute CD. Much more effective and 20 less rage cost. If you are designing skills you need make them effective compared to what's already out there. If the skill was on say a 1m CD and cost zero but also gained zero fury then it's be good maybe.

Note: I could give a TON of fun suggestions for skills/runes for the Barb as I have quite a bit of experience with one.

Maybe you could. But your two ideas you said here are not that good. But I see where you are coming from with these ideas. And it's that base train of thought I like a lot. Thinking outside the box.

Wizard:

I so badly wanted a wizard to be my main when I logged in on the night/morning of May 15th 2012. Unfortunately, the class, like all the others, is just so friggen far away from what it could and should be. The Wizard does not feel like a master of the elements. Even on MP0, my 120k dps Wizard struggles to use any skills not associated with some variation of the CM build, a focus on defensive abilities, or a variation of the Archon build.[/quote]

Have you really played a wizard of recent? And after 1.0.7 hit? With high Dps Blizzard just rips through low MP. It seems you're just playing the 2 main Wizard builds, CM and archon and not trying anything else.

Before I go any further, I must ask one question: Why on SANCTUARY does Meteor, a very high cost and delayed skill, deal almost one third the damage of the Monk’s instant cast, near spammable (with the rune) AOE Wave of Light skill?

because it's a different class. And because you have passives that add more dps or other effects. And range. The damage from meteor seems fine to me. It's just the delay that hurts. But that I can live with it cause it's not a melee skill. This is where you need to stop thinking "what you think a skill should be" and play the skill for what it is. When you do that you'll fit skills into a build you make up yourself and have fun making new fun viable builds.

Also, good lord are the meteor runes boring.

I find them quite interesting actually. Quite balanced. Just making them more powerful is not always the answer. I'd rather have different functionalities then just more dps.

This game is rife with overly simple skills and runes. No one is going to quit the game because they don’t understand some of the runes.

This is because of balance. The more you try to make something complex the harder it is to balance all the parts (in our case runes). I can also see in every case the first thing you did was upped the damage of the runes. I think that's not needed. Syre Meteor can be used as a primary. But it's other role is as a 2ndary to finish off those almost dead things in one bug massive boom. And to that end meteor as it is works well. Your Meteor rune ideas work. But almost feel a little too complex.

Current comet rune is boring.

Boring for you. But I really like it. It's simple and it works.

Stop giving every rune JUST slows, stuns, altered dmg amounts or decreased resource cost to try and separate them and make them fun. That’s not enough and it never will be.

Actually you have some merit in this. But you can't make them too complex either. You need a healthy balance. And I feel the D3 exp is a great time to change all of this up.

Monk:

Why is Blizzard so afraid to make this heal an actual heal?

Class balance. You give the monk an awesome heal spell and everyone cries OP. Other classes don't get a heal spell like this. And they would be right. You can't just randomly buff skills. You have to see how the buffed skill fits into the game. And is it balanced.

If you want to make it better, why not make the skill a buff when you use a pot (or better still the skill uses a pot and puts the pot on a cd). Like 50% more health from a pot and runes like 15+ more damage for 15 seconds after using a pot or 10% more armour etc etc. Just a random idea. Not too OP. And other classes would not QQ it being OP.

Skills should have ACTUAL impact on your characters!

I agree.

I feel the only issue at the moment with monk is way of a hundred fists. Remove the 3 hit combo from it and just make it a melee channelled ability. And done.

The rest is just your wishes for the class. Some very nice ideas I think blizzard needs to make a "pick a skill and re-design it" topic. As us players have a lot of good ideas on this front. A lot of crap ideas too. But the devs will weed out the good ideas. That's if the CM's show the devs the good ideas.

Demon Hunter:

I think the DH is unique. All of the other classes you know what you want and you choose the skills to try and make it. But for the DH it has no real defined role so you just have to pick random skills till you randomly make a build that works. Very trial and error.

All DH’s are almost forced to use Manticores as every alternative diminishes efficiency significantly.

You've never played a tank or Sword and Shield DH right? They are very effective without a Manticore. The sword and shield DH's don't use the archery passive. But lots of people use it? So? Blizzard know what the over used passives/skills are and are working on making the under used ones more attractive. Have faith in Blizzard.

Custom Engineering

6 spike traps is great. I was thinking of making a spike trap/sentry build based on this. Sure it's a vert situational passive but it's not totally crap like you claim.

Cull the Weak

Ever heard of entangling shot? This adds 15% dps to entangling shot. Which is very good. And it's easy to mass slow enemies with this.

Hot Pursuit

I agree this one is bad. Really bad.

Brooding

You like most players fail to see the good that can come from regen. A high health tank DH would love this ability.

Grenadier

Grenades are bad? Nonsense. I use the cluster grenade rune. Add in some LoH and it rocks. The passive though does suck. 2 more hatred? meh not needed. 10 less hatred cost for cluster arrow? If you spam that ability maybe. But otherwise meh.
Grenades are great for the right build. THis passive though does indeed stink.

Ballistics

Nice calling Blizzard brain fried like you did there.. Not really that's just plain rude. The passive is alright but it's not great. Average at best. Say a 100% damage increase would have made ti very interesting indeed.

Numbing Traps

Good for DH tanks. No one else wants it. DH tanks are the vast minority of DH's though.

Almost every single player uses Preperation, Shadow Power with Bloom rune and Vault\

Nope.
Shadow Power with Bloom is literally a requirement for efficient play(unless you’re farming on MP0 with big DPS and a strictly speedy build)

Nope again.
Hungering Arrow remains the best hatred generator by a significant amount

Nope again. A lot of people I know are not liking hungering arrow at all. I don't like it either. This is just your opinion. Some like it, others don't.
A large number of big hatred spenders lack the power and creativity required to make them appealing.

I'd say I agree on this one.
Rapid Fire is a channeled skill. Channeled skills on ranged classes need to be MUCH more powerful to be worth using. I’m talking about increasing power by as much as a factor of 5. The fact that you are utterly susceptible to incoming damage and are not allowed to move AT ALL means that the benefits from the skill should be tremendous to compensate.

It's the same as ray of frost. High dps but the downside is you can't move. Having an upside and a downside makes the skill very balanced in my opinion.
The class suffers from an extreme case of “Kill everything before it touches you”. Taking the desired stats down from their already abysmal number to an even more abysmal number makes the gearing process incredibly straightforward and boring. It also cripples the game’s ability to meet its maximum potential, but I’ve already covered that sufficiently.

You've never played a DH tank. With enough gear a DH can face tank. Just needs very good gear.

Shadow Power absolutely needs to have the reduced damage taken mechanic for every single rune.

Nope. This is a case of get better gear or learn to play the class better.
Blizzard refuses to make it happen.

And I agree with Blizzard. The DH is a high dps glass cannon. And it should stay that way unless you invest the millions to tank it out.

I’m fairly certain that Blizzard is unwilling to accept that SO many skills are nowhere near what they should be.

And you'd be wrong. Jay Wilson and numerous others in blue posts in the past have said Diablo 3 is a great game (and it is) but it's just not what they wanted it to be. And I agree. Diablo 3 at the moment is that great game (better than most out there) that is close to being amazing. I think with the expansion pack it will be amazing. And Blizzard know about the skill and rune issues. They are slowly implementing changes to them when time for coding in the changes allows.

Witch Doctor:
To be honest, I just don’t have very much experience playing a witch doctor, nor do I read enough about them to understand a whole lot about the core problems of their skills and gearing issues.

One thing I do know is that, like every other class, there is a TON of under utilized skills. The witch doctor suffers from an insane number of skills that have absurdly long cooldowns. As I said before, 2 minute cooldowns have absolutely no place in this game.

No you don't. You don't know much about the WD. You just said that yourself. The facts are:
In the past WD's mana system was not good enough to make the WD a viable character. But Blizzard fixed this. And post that patch a whole load of different viable WD builds have opened up.

And 2 minute CDs are good in Diablo 3. I used to hate them too. But I learnt to play with them in mind. Big Bad Voodoo for example. I use the rain dance rune for that. And I save it for any time I need a massive mana regen boost for killing an elite. And for that purpose it works well. 2 minute CDs are not the enemy. They are just a restraint you have to work around wen designing your builds.

CRAFTING:


Crafting can't compete with the AH cause RNG can't beat no RNG. Simple fact. But Blizzard are working on this issue so it'll come. Have faith.

SOCIAL FEATURES:

I agree. Clan support. Named games. Separate chat rooms in a lobby, a way to remove chat bots etc etc.

PVP:

It exists. But it's simply not fun. Blizz need to bring the fun to pvp or no one will do it. I say PvP is fine as it is now if the battles last for at least 10x longer then they do currently. It's a one shot fest at the moment.

END GAME AND INCENTIVE TO PLAY:

Diablo was always a "make your own end game" kind of game. Sure achievements help this in Diablo 3 but the same premise is there. I think a ladder really needs to come into Diablo 3. I though of one based on elite kills. Simply you have total elite kills and a 2nd number of elite kills during the season.

Apart from that, keep adding in achievements, new items to farm etc etc and people will keep playing.

Endless Monster Power System:

Bad idea. People choose the MP they want. Not the game chooses it for them. What if you want a lower MP. With your system you can't get it.

Endless Dungeon System:

Even though I think this is a bad idea if I was to vote on it I'd probably say yes.
Torchlight had an infinite level dungeon and after 10 levels of it I got really bored, and left it. Long runs of this is the same mind numbingly boring thing over and over.

I think it should be like this:
20 levels of a dungeon, all random with random titlesets. And has a random very tough monster at the end. You can beat it and reset the game and beat it over and over. I think this way is better as it has an end, something you can strive for, and gives people a purpose. Like beating the special dungeon say once a week.

MULTIPLAYER:

The majority of players don’t choose to play by themselves because they’re loners. They play by themselves because their priorities lie in enjoying the game to its fullest.

You think most players play alone. I don't know how you actually know this. Everyone I know loves Co-Op better then solo mode. But everyone I know is <1% of everyone playing Diablo 3. So without any evidence from Blizzard stating people on the whole prefer solo I will simply assume you are like almost every other player who does not know what every other player prefers to do.

And actually the game is just as efficient solo as it is Co-Op.

**********************

Gosu, thanks for your input. I enjoyed reading it. A lot of it was your opinion you claimed incorrectly as fact, facts you got wrong, and a lot of your opinions. But at least it was one of the better reads I've read no these forums.
90 Tauren Druid
9980
So I've brought it up before but I wanted to add to this topic since it's kind of a catch-all =D

Love D3 so far, been playing since beta, but the one glaring problem that's bugged me since launch is the fact that the game feels broken up into 4 smaller games, IE you have to create a new game if you want to travel acts, minus questing through the whole act.

It makes sense; D3 is built around the questline and events and it would probably take a tremendous amount of work to change it, but if I could have one change in all of D3, it would be this; Creating an option to disable the questline, and open up every WP and act in a single game, while simultaneously having each event / mini boss / boss available. I think now that each monster power is a flat difficulty the concern of stacking NV in act 1 then farming act 4 is gone.

It's just a personal thing that breaks the immersion for me, but I would absolutely love to be able to create a single game on the monster power of my choosing, and being able to go anywhere in the game to farm.
Those people who prefer a "relaxed" game can play on soft-core. Where dying doesn't matter, or they can choose to skip a certain mob pack.

The point the OP is trying to make I believe, is when your dev team believes that the challenge of the game comes from tweaking numbers on damage output or the health pool of mobs. That's not the challenge I am looking for, and I don't think I'm alone there. People want mechanics that challenge the players brain and knowledge of the game. Mechanics that aren't gear dependent but knowledge or common sense dependent. Which is also part of the reason people flock to the AH, everything in your game revolves around better gear instead of player skill. And I think that's the main reason this game is failing, because everything revolves around gear instead of skill.

Having spoken my mind about this game for the first time in awhile, I would also like to thank you for responding to this constructive thread. I still keep up with the D3 news, patiently waiting for D3 to become the game that I know it can be. :)


There we go. This guy understands what I'm trying to say. Thank you for helping to make that more clear :)

actually thats not a problem for me, D2 was that way as well where pretty much NOTHING had to do with "skill chalanges", it was more or less only about gear and the skills of your character. And as said that is what I expect from a Diablo game. As long as it gives you a DECENT chance to find the loot to either TRADE or even USE it for your own character.

At the moment this is the biggest issue with the game becaues its exactly where it was with Inferno 1.0 where the usual players have no chance to find the items to battle the more difficult content. To make it worse even the higher MP levels dont have higher rewards like better items or more quality to the items you find.

If you could find the items to get slowly but steadily better with your character I doubt people would feel so frustrated with D3.
To be honest, I'd have to give this a lot more thought. What I know is that it is not in D3's best interest to have damage purely scale from weapon damage via the exact same attributes (primary, crit, and attack speed) for all classes and builds.


Agreed. One of the only builds in the game that doesn't benefit from IAS is the one I main: A ZC+ZB WD, and we simply stack Avg Damage in the place of IAS, so it's pretty much the same rut you have been talking about.

Move power away from gear on to the actual characters. It wouldn't be so bad if our characters actually held most of the "base" power as we leveled and our gear just modified it in some cool, interesting way, now would it?

Add meaningful, emergent choices (depth) to a game that desperately needs it

Create diverse characters which are uniquely your own

Paragon offered up a golden opportunity to introduce some type of skill tree, but instead all we got token grinding and ill-conceived MF and GF bonuses. I know Travis mentioned changing the Paragon system to accomplish exactly what I'm talking about, but I don't know how they're going to do this.


I agree with everything you say here. I hate that my gear is the only definition of my character's power, and without he/she is useless. I think an interesting way of accomplishing what you describe is through a "Paragon Perk" system. Basically, for every 10 Plvls, you get a Perk point to allocate to the skill of your choice. Each skill would have 5 tiers with a variety of interesting effects that boost it in a meaningful way. I am just coming up with this off the top of my head, and I don't know if it is in line with you are suggesting, but let's say hypothetically a skill looks like this:

Zombie Charger Perks
1 - Increased movement speed of charger(s)
2 - Increased base damage by X%
3 - Reduced Mana cost
4 - Increased damage by X% from all poison sources on gear
5 - Adds an additional Charger to each cast

Other examples for cooldown based skill would be a reduced cooldown timer, longer duration, etc, and I am sure your imagination can run wild with possibilities. You only get a limited number of points to distribute (10 max in my example) that can be distributed as you see fit: put half of them in one skill to get the "best" perk (I would love an extra Bear), and split the other 5 up amongst your defensives. Or, put 2 perks in your five mainly used-skills, whatever you like.

The end result is that the character you leveled to p100 is your own creation, and you put your perks where you want them.
Edited by EddardStark#1833 on 3/1/2013 7:37 PM PST
02/28/2013 06:58 PMPosted by Travis Day
We have discussed ideas such as letting players have some control over what stats will appear on the item they are crafting, using the crafting system to allow players to reroll the values of affixes an item already has, etc. This is a system that, with time, should be able to find a better place in the overall gameplay experience of Diablo.


Please do this.
Gosu, thanks for your input. I enjoyed reading it. A lot of it was your opinion you claimed incorrectly as fact, facts you got wrong

Pretty much this. I am very glad I wasn't the one to notice that.
What he basically did was, that he branded a whole array of both active and passive skills and branded them bad and useless, even ones which can be used to a great effect.

Again, a gamer is supposed to try and find a way to utilize what he's been given instead of just brand it useless. It's not an objective approach.
Again, this is not how a gamer should approach things, nor a game developer wannabe.

I can already guess Goku's response, either "You haven't played enough" or "You don't understand". Just because people disagree with you doesn't mean, that they don't understand the subject. They just don't agree.
Gosu, first of all I must say this is a great post and I'm glad to see others put forth the effort to show the devs that we really do care about making D3 a better game, to make it live up to the series.

I have a few comments of my own to add to your post.

Challenge

I absolutely agree with this point. This is one of the biggest disappointments I have with D3. Given its central role in the game I still wonder what is it about the combat that so many people speak so highly of it. In comparison I find combat to be so terribly boring for the reasons you listed.

After playing through the game a few times I became bored very fast because there is little challenge. There is little variety in the encounters that keeps it fresh. I find TL2, for example, does this far better and is the reason why it is my preferred game. The game constantly throws new challenges at you that keeps the game entertaining and engaged in the combat. The challenges aren't all terribly difficult but they provide variety that keeps you attentive.

As one example, there is a bat enemy in act 2 that flies into the air periodically. When he is rising up he can't be hit. After he reaches his peak he swoops down and hits for a ton of damage. The entire animation isn't very quick so there is actually a fairly broad window to avoid the attack but the damage is high enough that you want to be sure to dodge. It is binary in a way. You either "win" and dodge the attack or you "lose" and get hit by it. The success or failure provides a form of feedback that makes your actions feel significant.

Itemization
Your gaming experience really shows here. This is really top notch stuff. It's good to see good ideas can still be found floating around these forums.

Nephalem points
This is a very unique approach to bringing back skill points and I definitely support it. Adding depth to the itemization simultaneously was a fantastic approach.

Weapon system

Yes, the problem is one that I've thought through as well and haven't really come up with a good way to tackle it either. The unique effects based on weapon type is very cool (another idea found in TL2 :P) and if the bonuses were designed properly it might push characters towards weapon types more cosmetically fitting of their class.

Overpopulation of Items

The loot pinata effect needs to go. It doesn't actually work unless good items pop out. This was great back in D2 with bosses but doesn't work so well in D3's current itemization.

I still believe in the AH system as a whole though. In fact, I feel the AH opens up opportunities with the game that they simply aren't utilizing. As you mentioned there just isn't enough variety in affixes and itemization approaches. The AH actually enables the devs to go completely wild with itemization variety given that crazy affix combos aren't a problem when you have an AH. The AH enables the player to narrow their search for something very specific that may be difficult to find on his own.

There is little concern about a specific affix combo dropping. As we see today the specific affix combo is the BiS combo of crit, crit damage, attack speed, and main stat which by sheer probability is pretty rare. The devs could go crazy with the affixes you listed and it could work out that there are nearly infinite varieties of "BiS" affix combos each being as rare as the current limited system. The additional varieties mean though that each item that drops can be valuable if not to you then to someone on the AH and the AH becomes a tool to connect players with the particular combination of affixes they desire rather than the magnitude of the numbers on them. Instead of shopping for high numbers you shop for cool affix combos that suit your build/play style.

Legendaries and sets
Agreed, were and still are a complete embarrassment.

Prime affixes
An interesting idea and although I've seen better I've seen worse as well. I'm having a hard time seeing the implications of such a system in the current state of itemization. Everything is still very much focused on raw number efficiency and I doubt this system would change anything. Sure there might be the few items that have odd affixes that get some use but it won't ultimately change what people strive for. In a more varied system it may open up a lot of unique build opportunities but I don't think the current affixes would give many more options.

------
Part 2

I really like the skill analysis in terms of supplemental and foundation basis. I think that does a wonderful job of explaining why so many of the skills feel so bland relative to D2. Really great insight from that section. I think something they should explore in depth is using runes as a way to separate foundation from supplemental. Each skill should have at least one rune that enables the skill as a foundation while others provide effects better suited as a supplement for other builds.

One example I like to use is wall of zombies. I always planned to make a "creepers" build but couldn't due to its cooldown but they really had a great opportunity to make that a real breakout rune effect that would distinguish the skill in a meaningful way that a character could be built around.

No one is going to care if you have to nerf one of their skills when they have 1000 other awesome ones to choose from.

This is such a great point! People complain about nerfs most probably because there aren't any good/fun alternatives!

Barb

"One shot wonder" - LOL! I love it!
TBH, I don’t really feel that a 2 minute CD skill belongs in this game at all.

Thank you for that. I'm glad I'm not alone on this matter.

Wizard

"Meteor runes"
Blizz please make this happen :P

I would like to state that I fully support 100% complex skill sets. It may take a bit more learning time but I believe that it is the complex skills that really hold their value in the long run. Ultimately, it was the complex skills that tended to gather the most interest in D2 because they are always the most fun to use. Simple skills are okay to fill out a class' skill set but a full set of complex skills can do the same but better with greater inherent replayability.

Monk
"Crippling Wave: Holy Spam"
Cooldown reduction? Yes please!

It’s a lot more fun to have to prepare yourself to use something efficiently instead of being forced to wait to use it, then just using it the moment it comes off CD.

I think this is the fundamental flaw behind cooldowns. The entire resource system is put in place as a means to control player power output and cooldowns are just an arbitrary, unnecessary restriction in skill use. They serve as a huge hindrance to skill/build diversity with no real advantage.

"Dashing Strike"
I love dashing strike as a skill and these changes just look fantastic.
Is it just me or does this skill and its runes sound fricken awesome????

It definitely isn't just you!

This is definitely more like the monk I was expected from the old class previews.

In reality, the majority of skills and runes in this game are actually pretty boring and ineffective.
This has been one of the biggest detriments to the game for me from the very beginning. I found no entertainment from my classes to even finish leveling them let alone spend time farming with them at level 60 with such a limited and boring skill set.

The witch doctor suffers from an insane number of skills that have absurdly long cooldowns. As I said before, 2 minute cooldowns have absolutely no place in this game.

Creepers :(

Let’s start with Wall of Zombies. I actually think that the Dead Rush and Pile on runes are quite creative and interesting. The problem is that the cooldown of this skill makes every single rune for it useless. This is another instance where I feel that a greater mana cost or some other form of limitation would be far more suitable than a cooldown. Cooldowns are just evil little nuisances when they fall upon such a great number of your fun skill choices.
Oh well look at that :) Blizzard please take the hint!

Nephalem Heritage
If you really want to encourage multiplayer then make it so that the NH bar is shared among all players in the party but EACH player gets to activate their skill when it fills. That would be a huge advantage to playing multiplayer knowing that you could have those extra awesome skill effects compared to single player.

Torchlight 2 Dungeons

As if it wasn't obvious that you played TL2 up to this point :P But yes this would definitely be a nice feature addition.

And that does it for my read through comments. I'll see about going through things more thoroughly another time. These were just the main points that jumped out at me that I wanted to address/highlight. I could easily go pages in my response but you've done a great job that I don't feel the need to rush. Once again, awesome post. I still enjoy reading the many great ideas that people come up with. It leaves me with hope that the game can be saved if only by Blizzard breaking down and just copying some of the better ideas on the forum wholesale.
03/01/2013 07:55 PMPosted by icabod
To me, Diablo has always been about smashing demons, not spending ridiculous amounts of time over itemization.


This basically sums up your perspective.

To a lot of players of D2, it had very little to do with "smashing demons".

There are lots of games(hack-n-slash) where you can smash demons, but very few like a DIABLO game( action ROLE PLAYING GAME).

What does the original player that came up with the build first, which btw would no doubt be hard to prove, have a copyright on the build.

It's not that original players have a "copyright" on the build. It's the fact that this person spent quite a bit of time into designing it and making it work. This player deserves the performance and output of this build as well as the fun factor because that player used everything within the game system to make it work.
The first one to come up with the build does not need any special prizes for coming up with it first. It does not belong entirely to him and him alone.
You're missing the point. It's the uniqueness and the sense of accomplishment that you feel when you've spent so much time into building that character. It's what makes your builds YOURS. It SHOULD belong entirely to him and him alone, at least until the time that it becomes popular by word of mouth.

You see, in the old days, you could come up with something really fun and effective, and because of the permanence that most games had in place, when you saw a guy like that in your game or room you knew that you were really seeing something special.

You think to yourself, man, I really liked that build and I want to play it! So you build a new character and start a journey with the goal of unlocking this particular playstyle that you liked so much.

With Diablo 3, you don't even have to come up with any builds. You wait until somebody else does all the work, then go check out their Youtube video or guide, copy it, and there you go! Where's all the fun in that? Where's the accomplishment for the original player? You have these leechers that do nothing but copy stuff, claim stuff for themselves and not credit anybody. And in the process, they'll trash the game complaining that it's so easy and doesn't take any thought.

How will someone that tweaks the build a little to suit them, or even to improve efficiency destroy what the other player is doing. The player he copied from does not have to alter their build to match the new and improved version, unless they want to.

Tweaking the build is fine and all, but there comes a lot of research, trial and error that is attached to tweaking an already working build. It takes just as much work as it did when the build was originally made.

The problem is that because there's no permanency into your build, you don't feel like you're making all the right or wrong decisions. People just throw stuff together because they "like" it even when there are glaring pitfalls that they didn't account for.

In Diablo 2 and other similar games where there's a sort of build permanence, even if there are optimal builds or desirable builds, you still have to play through those levels and build those characters as the original creator did. You end up learning more about the build, and it is that different viewpoint that allows someone to tweak and successfully optimize the build.

There's no thought required in D3 and the glaring issue is that you miss that learning process that goes into mastering a build and class.
Awesome post Gosu , just awesome , thanks Travis for reading everything and the feedback , i don't know about you guys but i like this guy.
80 Tauren Druid
770
Just wanna say that this is one of the best threads I have found yet. Restored my hope in Blizzard and the future of Diablo 3. This game was amazing but could be better. Let's see if that will happen...
I started the thread high as !@#$, but by the end of the OP, the mother effin DEV response and and equally awesome as the original post hitting the dev back, I stand enlightened and honored.
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