Diablo® III

The Salvation of Diablo 3: A Guide by Gosu

@ theeighthark

Let me first say that I loved this particular post of yours, especially the part about the opinions based on facts he got wrong:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7980249170?page=40#788
That aside, I would like to discuss few things with you.

First, upon braking down, Gosu's idea about removing class specific affixes is not bad at all and it's got hellavalot more to do with itemization, than it does with a "roundabout way of re-implementong the Diablo 2 skill system". I think that both me and the Game designer misunderstood Gosu's idea (which is partially our fault, but partially Gosu's fault as well, considering that again, both me and the dev failed to understand what he was saying initially)... or may be that's my interpretation, I don't know. In any way, please do take a look:
Gosu is not trying to re-implement the old Diablo2 skill tree system, he's merely trying to improve the itemization. He wants to remove class specific bonuses, so that certain item can be just as good for multiple classes instead of just one. A simple example can illustrate that.

Say I have a chest with 90Dex, 90Int, 160+Vita, 70+all resistances and +10max discipline. This chest will clearly operate the best on a Demon Hunter.
Gosu want's to replace the +10max discipline with... say 3 points of Nephalem Powers, which each class can spend on something like talent tree.
Say on my demon hunter I spend 2 points on a tallent "Increases Max discipline by 3 per point" and one point on "Increases hatred regeneration by 1.5 per second, per point".
The difference is that I can now use that chest equally on a Demon Hunter, Monk, Wizard and Witch doctor, because each of those classes would be able to distribute the 3 points to class specific bonuses. The result is that an item that was good for a single class is now good for four!
I hope this explains it better.


The second thing is based on this particular quote:
Choosing points or mini skill trees as in the past. We should move on.

I also think that rebuilding hundred characters of the same class is in the past. In fact, not everyone did it back in the day. Many players (including me) used character editors to try different builds, before actually leveling the real character in a legit manner. I didn't wanna waste my time doing the same thing hundred times back then and I don't wanna do it now either.

That said, Gosu's suggestion's got nothing to do with that. He didn't suggest re-leveling the same character over and over again. What he did suggest was a fix, which was directed towards improving the itemization, while adding some very minor form of customization (which is good), and from what I understood he suggested the points to be refundable (which is also good, since I don't wanna re-level my character hundred times).
03/02/2013 07:06 AMPosted by theeighthark
I like the principle of the idea, it just needs to be implemented in a different way.

My question is how would you feel about the system the way I described it.

And finally, to this last particular quote:
WoW moved on in Panda. D3 moved on. It's best not to move back into the past.

Do you think WoW is a good place right now? Because I most certainly don't.
Do you think Diablo should follow in WoW's footsteps? Because I most certainly don't.
Not everything in the past is necessarily bad. I would argue that many things in the past were better and it's not just the nostalgia talking.
Responses like this are just terrible, and quite frankly, a cop out.

No it is not. It's right on the money. Choosing points or mini skill trees as in the past. We should move on. WoW moved on in Panda. D3 moved on. It's best not to move back into the past.

I like the principle of the idea, it just needs to be implemented in a different way.


Skill trees don't really add as much customization as people believe it does. Counting all of the possible builds (implying that less than max points in your main nuke should be considered a "build") is like counting a D3 wizard with all 3 armors a "build". The end result, whether it be D2, D3, or WoW, is that each class will have 1-3 viable builds for min/maxers, and a bunch of goofy builds for people who want to have fun.

I've said this before, but for a skill tree system, a player often only does 4 things with any given skill:
1) He wants the skill and maxes it out (main nuke)
2) He wants the skill but has no reason to take more than 1 point (certain utility skills like teleport)
3) He doesn't want the skill but is forced to take it in order to access another one (frostbolt, etc)
4) He doesn't want it and puts 0 points in it

D3 streamlines this system by changing 1+2 into "take the skill" and 3+4 into "don't take the skill". No real builds in D2 would put 15 into frozen orb or 5 into teleport or X into a skill that wasn't going to be used at all. Oftentimes, the number of points that went into a particular skill was already pre-determined by the nature of the skill.

What skill trees do add, though, is incremental progression to the leveling process. Leveling in D3 was awful because the vast majority of your level ups offered useless runes for useless skills. So my character basically only gained 3 main stat and 2 vit, which was barely noticeable. With a skill tree system like D2's, each level up improves a skill that the player has in their build and wants to actually use.

In a game that offers respecs and a skill tree (ie. pre-MoP WoW), respeccing was a pretty annoying process, because you'd have to go through 70 clicks just to change a couple points around. For end-game purposes (which games should be balanced around, in my personal opinion), skill trees just become an annoyance and are better replaced with another system.

I agree with you that a different implementation might be warranted, especially if they could somehow keep the fun in leveling that skill trees offer, without the end-game hassle that they bring.
Edited by Dazarath#1968 on 3/2/2013 7:54 AM PST
bli$$ard shifted too much character power onto gear and basically pigeonholed stats into weapon dmg and the trifecta.

the OP suggestions are good but bli$$ard will just keep defending their auction rpg.

i really wish we got d2 or poe or tl2 with d3 combat+graphics
props to Travis for a well thought out post
03/02/2013 07:32 AMPosted by theeighthark
Game ratings equal game popularity and not game quality.

Lulwat? This is the exact opposite of how things are in my view. Diablo 3 as a game was massively popular selling an insane number of copies yet it has turned out incredibly poor and was rated as such. Games like TL2 and PoE aren't terribly popular in the gaming world as a whole but the few who do play have expressed that they are quality games.

03/02/2013 07:32 AMPosted by theeighthark
And 10+ million sales > any random game reviewer's game rating score.

And you give no weight to the fact that many of those 10 million sales turned into very disappointed customers who quit the game within a few weeks?
Edited by steveman0#1968 on 3/2/2013 8:11 AM PST
02/28/2013 06:58 PMPosted by Travis Day
We have discussed ideas such as letting players have some control over what stats will appear on the item they are crafting, using the crafting system to allow players to reroll the values of affixes an item already has, etc. This is a system that, with time, should be able to find a better place in the overall gameplay experience of Diablo.


Discussions are fina and all but I have waay too many meetings at work and sometimes Just need to get the work Done! So this is a call to action:) Please implement both of these... I mean why not:)
I have a third option for you too... This speaks more to Gems though... What would have been cool is if when you socket a Marquise Gem (since they costs so damn much and whatnot) you get the ability to select which property it affects... best example would be, say I socket my weapon with a marquise emerald, since this is already account bound i can't sell the weapon but instead of crit damage which is excellent btw... i want to choose attack speed or crit chance or any other offensive stat and have that one stat be increased from it's top so if attack speed tops at 9% it could say double it to 18% That might make me think about how i get different builds.
Imagine a 3-socket chest piece Hell ya:)
Just a wild suggestion i had this am is all:)
woaw, many great ideas and reading all ur post i really feelt warm feeling that game still can be amazingly great, but then after i read blue post i feelt kind of bad cuz iam pretty sure they will take some ideas and change some things in they own ways wich will be just as disapointing as changes till they made now
03/02/2013 07:42 AMPosted by Noxifer
WoW moved on in Panda. D3 moved on. It's best not to move back into the past.


WoW moved on added Pandas broke there skills more and has steadily become one of the worst games out ATM. So when you move on you don't want to have your game fail. The wheel doesn't need to be reinvented it works. sigh.

Don't tell me either that there Panda/Pokémon bad game is successful because it sold copies. I actually bought the digital collectors edition for my Diablo achievement. I still haven't played that game once nor do I have a plan to.
03/02/2013 07:52 AMPosted by Dazarath

No it is not. It's right on the money. Choosing points or mini skill trees as in the past. We should move on. WoW moved on in Panda. D3 moved on. It's best not to move back into the past.

I like the principle of the idea, it just needs to be implemented in a different way.


Skill trees don't really add as much customization as people believe it does. Counting all of the possible builds (implying that less than max points in your main nuke should be considered a "build") is like counting a D3 wizard with all 3 armors a "build". The end result, whether it be D2, D3, or WoW, is that each class will have 1-3 viable builds for min/maxers, and a bunch of goofy builds for people who want to have fun.

I've said this before, but for a skill tree system, a player often only does 4 things with any given skill:
1) He wants the skill and maxes it out (main nuke)
2) He wants the skill but has no reason to take more than 1 point (certain utility skills like teleport)
3) He doesn't want the skill but is forced to take it in order to access another one (frostbolt, etc)
4) He doesn't want it and puts 0 points in it

D3 streamlines this system by changing 1+2 into "take the skill" and 3+4 into "don't take the skill". No real builds in D2 would put 15 into frozen orb or 5 into teleport or X into a skill that wasn't going to be used at all. Oftentimes, the number of points that went into a particular skill was already pre-determined by the nature of the skill.

What skill trees do add, though, is incremental progression to the leveling process. Leveling in D3 was awful because the vast majority of your level ups offered useless runes for useless skills. So my character basically only gained 3 main stat and 2 vit, which was barely noticeable. With a skill tree system like D2's, each level up improves a skill that the player has in their build and wants to actually use.

In a game that offers respecs and a skill tree (ie. pre-MoP WoW), respeccing was a pretty annoying process, because you'd have to go through 70 clicks just to change a couple points around. For end-game purposes (which games should be balanced around, in my personal opinion), skill trees just become an annoyance and are better replaced with another system.

I agree with you that a different implementation might be warranted, especially if they could somehow keep the fun in leveling that skill trees offer, without the end-game hassle that they bring.


And when you step outside the box and your skill tree doesn't actually have any skills in it?

Hint. Hint.
The salvation of this game is blizz making more content via DLC, im getting impatient.. I want another complete act.. I want skeletal mages.. Y U NO SKELETAL MAGES IN DIABLO GAME? and with the inclusion of the necromancer. some more items wouldnt hurt either.. legendary change ups and more legendary items too.
TLDR – Travis has crit Gosu with Wall of Text for 1 Billlllllllion damage.

hahaha!!!
02/28/2013 06:58 PMPosted by Travis Day
Your system idea for Nephalem Power Stat is basically a roundabout way of suggesting we re-implement the Diablo 2 skill system.


I totally agree. Everything the OP talked about was spot on and a great idea...EXCEPT for Nephalem Power. A not so subtle way of trying to bring back that "classic" mechanic I don't really miss. PoE has done a good job capturing that and improving upon it. Lets keep it out of Diablo 3 and let it continue to evolve without it.
03/02/2013 08:50 AMPosted by Chopu
The salvation of this game is blizz making more content via DLC

What a stupid thing to say. Diablo3 is not the kind of game, which gets new content on a regular basis due to it's lore. It's much more easy for Blizzard to produce content for the WarCraft universe than it is for Diablo.

And quite frankly let's all get real. If any of the major changes suggested here were to be implemented, we'll probably have to wait for the expansion. That's how it was with WoW. Where do you think the popular phrase "the expansion will fix it" comes from?
Back in The Burning Crusade there were a lot of players on the forums with concerns with the state of the game. Blizzard pretty much gave up and decided they are gonna work on the WotLK. Same thing went during the WotLK and Cata.
And since we don't have a name for the expansion it will probably get announced at BlizzCon this year, and it will come out the next year. In any cause it wont be any time soon and I very much doubt we'll see any radical changes.

Blizzard are just about to release the game for consoles and they want the game to be pretty much the same as the PC version. Do you guys honestly think they are just going to radically change the game and turn it on itself, just because of a thread on the forums?
03/02/2013 08:59 AMPosted by Connatic
Your system idea for Nephalem Power Stat is basically a roundabout way of suggesting we re-implement the Diablo 2 skill system.


I totally agree. Everything the OP talked about was spot on and a great idea...EXCEPT for Nephalem Power. A not so subtle way of trying to bring back that "classic" mechanic I don't really miss. PoE has done a good job capturing that and improving upon it. Lets keep it out of Diablo 3 and let it continue to evolve without it.

Please, read this..

First, upon braking down, Gosu's idea about removing class specific affixes is not bad at all and it's got hellavalot more to do with itemization, than it does with a "roundabout way of re-implementong the Diablo 2 skill system". I think that both me and the Game designer misunderstood Gosu's idea (which is partially our fault, but partially Gosu's fault as well, considering that again, both me and the dev failed to understand what he was saying initially)... or may be that's my interpretation, I don't know. In any way, please do take a look:

Gosu is not trying to re-implement the old Diablo2 skill tree system, he's merely trying to improve the itemization. He wants to remove class specific bonuses, so that certain item can be just as good for multiple classes instead of just one. A simple example can illustrate that.

Say I have a chest with 90Dex, 90Int, 160+Vita, 70+all resistances and +10max discipline. This chest will clearly operate the best on a Demon Hunter.
Gosu want's to replace the +10max discipline with... say 3 points of Nephalem Powers, which each class can spend on something like talent tree.
Say on my demon hunter I spend 2 points on a tallent "Increases Max discipline by 3 per point" and one point on "Increases hatred regeneration by 1.5 per second, per point".
The difference is that I can now use that chest equally on a Demon Hunter, Monk, Wizard and Witch doctor, because each of those classes would be able to distribute the 3 points to class specific bonuses. The result is that an item that was good for a single class is now good for four!
I hope this explains it better.
Is this the same legendary Gosu from counter-strike 1.6?
03/02/2013 09:03 AMPosted by Noxifer
What a stupid thing to say. Diablo3 is not the kind of game, which gets new content on a regular basis due to it's lore. It's much more easy for Blizzard to produce content for the WarCraft universe than it is for Diablo.


Woah dude no need to judge man.. Maybe I should have said additional content instead.. I just thought expansions were becoming more of a thing of the past.

Edit from original post: Blizz should also make a !@#$ ton of more dungeons. in fact the story line is so sub par that the game should just be dungeons like D1 was.
I love threads like these. Awesome job.
The nephalem valor can be implemented the same way skills are. It will offer a lot LOT customization for each build you make.

Think about this. Let's supose in skill tree there is a point for increase AOE radius for all skills ... for wizzard. Using magic misile with increase impact radius would be super nice. Or storm armor to have splash effect ... or meteor hitting half the screen ... Why not ? To make it balanced give it a penalty .. like increases arcane cost ...

The nephalem tree should be like skill tree, you change something, you loose your stacks.

The ideea is great.
03/02/2013 09:16 AMPosted by Chopu
Woah dude no need to judge man..

Apologies.
03/02/2013 09:16 AMPosted by Chopu
I just thought expansions were becoming more of a thing of the past.

And what makes you think so within the context of the Blizzard games? Sure you can compare the WoW content patches, which keep the players paying their subscription fee to a form of DLC, but that by no means make the expansions a thing of the past. WoW has had like like four expansions and it will have at least one more.
03/02/2013 09:16 AMPosted by Chopu
in fact the story line is so sub par that the game should just be dungeons like D1 was

First, the comment I made in regards to the Diablo lore is not something I invented, it's actually something I herd from Blizzard, though I am not sure about the source or the context (I think it was discussed on one of the recent BlizzCons or may be on the old forums, I truly don't remember.

Second, even the Classic Diablo (D1) had it's lore and story, same goes for Diablo2. The problem with Diablo3 is the following: the story is too inconsistent and contradicts some of the already existing lore in some way (namely the SinWar Trilogy, but that's another topic) and as if that's not enough to annoy, they shove the story in your face (as opposed to the previous games, in which you could ignore most of it).
03/02/2013 09:16 AMPosted by Chopu
Blizz should also make a !@#$ ton of more dungeons.

More like they should focus their work on inventing incentives, which should keep the players playing.
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