Diablo® III

The Salvation of Diablo 3: A Guide by Gosu

Finding your own gear

Whenever we talk about what the fantasy of Diablo is and what we want the core gameplay to be, never do we say “we want players to farm gold and go buy items off the auction house”. The AH definitely has made an impact on Diablo 3 and we talk about it constantly, but our conversations are usually in the context of “how can we get players to find their own loot instead of just buying it”.


Maybe have a NO AH server with different drop rates ...

The problem with the way it's set up is , unless you are extremely lucky, you have very little chance of finding a really good item. It is really next to impossible to be anywhere close to the same level of power with self found gear, compared to minimal effort and gold on the auction house.

So of course players will , for the most part , take the path of least resistance. But now they have items that would have taken a long time, if ever, to have self found. So of course , all the items they do find are crap and the game is now unrewarding.

You can argue that it's that players fault, but I think it's the game design's fault. A good, fun and engaging item game would not let this happen. I would be happy finding these items myself and I would have a good progression with self-found gear.

That doesn't really happen in D3, I wish it did but it doesn't and that is a huge problem. And the cause is bad itemization, bad drop rates and the auction house.

How is it going to work on the console with the offline play ? I really , highly doubt that it will be using the same drop rates as what we have.

I mean it is blatantly obvious ( to me at least , and i'm sure many others ) that the reason why the drop rates are so horrendous is the auction house.

I would really like to know how that is going to be handled in the console , might give us an idea of how badly it is skewed towards the AH in the first place. It would be nice if you could make some of this information available.

I don't really know how you fix those things with the itemization , but you could increase the drop rates and allow us to play on non-ah servers . But i doubt that would ever happen , you may surprise me , but I doubt it.
Edited by Dazmodan#1520 on 3/2/2013 7:15 PM PST
Gosu is not trying to re-implement the old Diablo2 skill tree system, he's merely trying to improve the itemization. He wants to remove class specific bonuses, so that certain item can be just as good for multiple classes instead of just one. A simple example can illustrate that...


I think it's both...but both might not be necessary. I really think all of his ideas about item affixes was fine, but making a generic "class affix" that can be customized to each class...it sounds ok, but we have to be reasonable. That's quite a divergence. The larger the change, the less likely it is to actually happen. I think we have to accept that the best ideas are the ones that require the least amount of work for the Blizzard devs. The obvious one right now is adding a LOT more affixes that can compete with all the ones that just increase DPS. Of course if that's even possible I don't even know.
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@ Chopu

I apologized for calling you stupid. Now I take that apology back -- you are stupid beyond belief. Here's why.
03/02/2013 10:42 AMPosted by Chopu
This isnt WoW.

First you are complaining that Diablo3 shouldn't be like WoW, but then you want Diablo3 to have a WoW-like model -- namely new content on a regular basis. Doesn't matter if you buy a DLC or you pay subscription fee in between content patches, it's basically almost identical model.
03/02/2013 03:31 PMPosted by Chopu
Because your question does not deserve such a charitable answer obviously. You still have yet to answer my initial question as to why Diablo must absolutely have an expansion rather than just some DLC here and there to keep the game fresh all the time? And, please do not give an unrelated answer such as WoW still does it.

I don't wanna have to pay on a regular basis to get to play the latest version of the game to stay on track, regardless of whether it's through DLC or a subscription fee.
What you're asking for is simply not Diablo.
I am gonna use your exact phrase -- This is not WoW.
OK! Read it all. Hooray for me!

There is one thing I'd like to throw in to OP's great post, something that has bugged me from the start and bugged me throughout the entire game: the RP/voice thing.

Keeping it short, in D2, all Diablo ever said to you was "Not even death can save you from me..." then BAM, he was in your face with infernos and bone prisons. In D3, we get "So, you approach the occulus with the intent to destroy it? You will NOT succeed." Really? Was that line necessary?

"Look, Tyrael, your old lieutenant!" Come on. Come. On.

The enemy is darker, more evil, more terrifying and more impressive when they don't hold your hand through the entire act (Diablo), tell your their plans every step of the way (Azmodan), meet you during every relevant step in an act and call you a "fool" (Butterfly chick). In my mind, it's much more impressive when a boss says "The last thing you will hear is your bones BREAKING!" before charging at you.

I dunno, that's me. Some food for thought. Less hand holding, less butterflies, less "here's my plan lolwhatugonnado?" more surprises, more evil, more darkness.
+1 very good OP

cheers
Blizzard need to stop saying D2 was outdated and admit the fact that D2 being over 12 years, did alot of things right.

Until the current team came and thought they knew better and messed it all up.

Maybe they can swallow their pride once the D2 active player base surpasses D3.
Blizzard need to stop saying D2 was outdated and admit the fact that D2 being over 12 years, did alot of things right.

Until the current team came and thought they knew better and messed it all up.

Maybe they can swallow their pride once the D2 active player base surpasses D3.


Or you could go back to d2 since it's still there. D3 is a completely new game.
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Actually you'd be surprised at how many of us WoW players (or former players, like myself) either don't talk about WoW, or ask that WoW mechanics be kept out of D3. The only reason anything WoW is even necessary at this point (BtA, proc coefficients) is because of how horribly wrong the itemization in the game was done and how people obtained those items (or didn't, especially with regard to the set items).

In reality, those that played Diablo 2, then WoW, and then Diablo 3 may end up having some of the best ability to provide input on this game, providing they can converse with any modicum of civility since they have played several games with varying mechanics and know what works, what doesn't work, and why, respectively.

Believe it or not, Diablo 3 could take a few hints from of all game

This!

This is what people need to understand. Those who have experienced a wide array of games are the most valuable resources for constructive feedback. It's pretty easy to play one single game and try and analyze why it was good or bad, but when you play a plethora of games you tend to see patterns in games and understand why certain games are fun for you, and why others are not.

I do not want D3 to be a direct clone of WoW, but there are certainly pieces of the magic formula that work for WoW that can easily be adapted for D3.

Considering a lot of WoW's mechanics came from Diablo in the first place it's not really making the game more like WoW, but more like bringing Diablo back to its core foundation for success.

Also this.
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Although, I am not sure if I can agree with this:
03/02/2013 05:32 PMPosted by Drothvader
Sure, D2 had a model that worked for it, and if we didn't have a central Auction House in D3 the current model would probably most certainly work.

What does the Auction Houses have to do with what model worked back in Diablo2 and what models work in Diablo3?

Back in the day we (the D2 players, at least those of us who didn't used third parties for trading) used to host games with names along the lines of N this O that (N stands for need, O stands for offer, "this" and "that" are to be replaced with the names of the items).

There were times in which I could stay in a game for hours at a time. And even when someone finally entered the game there was no guarantee, that the trading will go smoothy.
Often times there were idiots, who didn't read the name of the game or were trying to offer me something else, or were trying to get me to lower the price. It was extremely cumbersome and annoying.
The Auction House removes that absolutely idiotic part of the trading. It let's me list an item for the exact price that I want and I don't have to deal with idiots. The model works perfectly for me!
And every time I read a complaint regarding the Auction House, it makes me question whether the poster actually played Diablo2 over battle.net.

If you believe that the Auction House has something (or everything) to do with the bad itemization, then ask for the itemization to be improved.
I liked some of your suggestions on the matter in some of your previous posts.

If you believe, that the current system makes the players feel forced to resort to the Auction House, then ask for more abundant loot, so that the players have higher chance to find their own gear.

If the Auction House were to be removed, not only this is not going to solve the problems with the itemization, but it's going to cause problems for players like me.

Here's something, that I think people need to understand:

Just like many players don't like to use the Auction House for trading, there are those of us who sometimes don't like to trade directly with other players.
If the players can't understand, that I don't always feel like dealing with other people, then why the rest of us are supposed to show understanding when someone complains, that he feels forced to use the Auction House?


Everyone should be able to freely chose the way they want to sell their items, just the way it is now. You can post your items on the Auction House, or you can list your item in the trade chat, on the official forums, or on the forums of small trading communities and so on.

"But I got scammed through the trade window QQ :*("
Then ask for the trade window to get fixed!
"But my friend found this item, that I could really use and instead of giving it to me, he sold it on the Auction House QQ :*("
Then find yourself better friends... or try not to feel so entitled to iems, which don't belong to you!"

The bottom line is: the Auction House didn't stole your breakfast! (well, may be it did :P, I herd such complaints :D:D:D).
Edited by Noxifer#2606 on 3/2/2013 8:17 PM PST
So it only took 5,000,000 great idea posts exactly like this for a blue to post on it without blizz deleting them.........

well too bad I quit already but still come for the $60 forum access lolz.
Edited by ChEEdLe#1230 on 3/2/2013 8:13 PM PST
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03/02/2013 07:54 PMPosted by Noxifer
What does the Auction Houses have to do with what model worked back in Diablo2 and what models work in Diablo3?

Because of the very existence of the Auction House, loot has been specifically modified so that important modifiers are very rare to find on gear in an effort to "preserve" the integrity of the economy.

It's not the Auction House itself, it's the influence it has over the droprate of usable items.

An important quote to back this aspect can be found here.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5150764997?page=3#49

While yes, the Auction House literally has direct influence over you getting gear, it has an indirect influence over your ability to find it.

As a result, things that would be easily found in Diablo 2 aren't found quite so easily in Diablo 3.

The concept of a central auction house is largely stemming from World of Warcraft, but the very existence of the Auction House does not force people to use it. It's used more for commodity / crafted items versus finding actual gear. You most certainly can use WoW's central Auction Houses for gearing your character, but the best gear is found by you the player.

The only way this model works is when powerful items are reserved for players to find themselves.

If powerful items dropped as plentifully as they did in Diablo 2, then gear would be worthless on the Auction House and everyone would be decked out in some pretty sick items right off the bat.

When the developers were talking about the drop rates being tuned for a player not to use the Auction House they were full of it. There's no way a player can currently complete a set without resorting to using the Auction House. In over 700 hours of play, I've found 2... 2 set items.

Now, if those set items were BoA instead and the player was able to find them themselves more easily, it would make for more satisfying gameplay because they aren't forced to trade massive amounts of gold for gear.

WoW has a BoA model and gold most certainly isn't useless as a currency.

Hence, since D3 has taken the concept of a central AH from WoW, it would work in its best interests to adopt some other proven and effective models such as BoA gear.

Without BoA, D3 feels like trying to use a computer without a monitor. You might get lucky and click on what you want, but the chances of that happening are so slim. While a blind squirrel might sometimes find a nut, they certainly aren't as effective as one who can see.
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It's not the Auction House itself, it's the influence it has over the droprate of usable items.


It's as simple as that.

All of the true D2 vets who really played the game in its prime for years and years can understand the overall change in game design implemented in D3.

The AH influences how items are obtained (aka game progress) and the end result was the AH being the cornerstone of the entire games itemization. The game is not designed thinking you will self find, it is taking into account the player using it as a part of game progress which is just a terrible way to make a great game.

Imagine actually being able to self grind a great competitive character? Yeah that was D2.
Edited by ChEEdLe#1230 on 3/2/2013 8:35 PM PST
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03/02/2013 08:17 PMPosted by Drothvader
What does the Auction Houses have to do with what model worked back in Diablo2 and what models work in Diablo3?

Because of the very existence of the Auction House, loot has been specifically modified so that important modifiers are very rare to find on gear in an effort to "preserve" the integrity of the economy.

It's not the Auction House itself, it's the influence it has over the droprate of usable items.

An important quote to back this aspect can be found here.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5150764997?page=3#49

While yes, the Auction House literally has direct influence over you getting gear, it has an indirect influence over your ability to find it.

As a result, things that would be easily found in Diablo 2 aren't found quite so easily in Diablo 3.


Did you even read the rest of my post?
03/02/2013 08:17 PMPosted by Drothvader
the very existence of the Auction House does not force people to use it.

Exactly my point.
03/02/2013 08:17 PMPosted by Drothvader
It's not the Auction House itself, it's the influence it has over the droprate of usable items.

If you believe that "the Auction House literally has direct influence over you getting gear, it has an indirect influence over your ability to find it", then ask for the gear to be more abundant and much easier to find for yourself.
Ask for the Auction House to not influence the loot and your ability to find it!
03/02/2013 08:17 PMPosted by Drothvader
If powerful items dropped as plentifully as they did in Diablo 2, then gear would be worthless on the Auction House and everyone would be decked out in some pretty sick items right off the bat.

If items that I found were powerful, but worthless at the same time, I wouldn't post them on the Auction House, but keep them for friends. Actually, since then introduction of the BoA gear there have been some very similar cases already.
03/02/2013 08:17 PMPosted by Drothvader
Now, if those set items were BoA instead and the player was able to find them themselves more easily, it would make for more satisfying gameplay because they aren't forced to trade massive amounts of gold for gear.

Why does the loot have to be BoA? As much as I would love to completely eliminate any and all trading, what you're asking for is not gonna happen (let's be realistic) and more importantly, it's not what Diablo games were ever about.
It's that I believe what Jay Wilson claimed in interviews that 'Diablo games are based around trading", but the truth is, that Diablo games were not about always finding the gear for yourself. Often times I have given or have been given gear in Diablo2. Many times I have traded. I've also had characters, on which I deliberately played with only self found gear.

But I never asked for everybody else to play the way I did. What I ask is for there to be options. If I want to dump my gear on the Auction House I should have the means to do so.

03/02/2013 08:17 PMPosted by Drothvader
Without BoA, D3 feels like trying to use a computer without a monitor. You might get lucky and click on what you want, but the chances of that happening are so slim. While a blind squirrel might sometimes find a nut, they certainly aren't as effective as one who can see.

Stupid analogy. I am sorry, I like you, Drothvader, but this is just stupid.
What you're saying is basically, that if the gear is not BoA, then the game is dysfunctional, like a blind squirrel trying to find a nut. This is not the case.

If the squirrel finds a nut, nobody tells the squirrel what to do with it's own nut (lol). She get to CHOOSE whether to eat it right away, store it for later or give it's blind buddy squirrel.
What's your problem with players choosing what to do with their own items?
03/02/2013 08:17 PMPosted by Drothvader
Without BoA, D3 feels like trying to use a computer without a monitor. You might get lucky and click on what you want, but the chances of that happening are so slim.


It is possible to make a good online action RPG without any Bind-on-account.

Drothvader is implying that BOA is a requirement for a successful economy, which is completely untrue.
Edited by Chillaxin#1429 on 3/2/2013 9:09 PM PST
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03/02/2013 08:53 PMPosted by Noxifer
Did you even read the rest of my post?

Yes, I read the whole thing.

I just disagree with it.

If you believe that "the Auction House literally has direct influence over you getting gear, it has an indirect influence over your ability to find it", then ask for the gear to be more abundant and much easier to find for yourself.
Ask for the Auction House to not influence the loot and your ability to find it!

I think you're still not seeing the whole picture.

All it does is compound the issues, Nox. If the player can suddenly find a plethora of great gear, then guess what? The threshold is raised.

The problem just becomes worse and worse, it's like trying to cover a giant wound with a box of hello kitty bandages.

Remember back in 1.0.2 and 1.0.3? Rare weapons with 700 DPS on it were actually worth something. At that point they were still rare.

The chance to find a 700 DPS weapon hasn't improved too much since 1.0.3, however they are currently next to worthless.

As many players have found more items and flooded the market, the value of 700 DPS weapons has DRASTICALLY been reduced. As the intrinsic value is based on the items rarity, the item is no longer rare because it's plentiful on the Auction House.

Even though the chance to find said item hasn't changed much, the item is still bountiful.

Now as a countermeasure to help close the gap, you raise droprates... Well, eventually it's just going to raise the threshold again.

This is why the lack of BoA hurts the endgame hunt. If a player was to FIND some BoA gear that was superbly fantastic, they would have a reason to go hunt for it themselves.

This keeps really awesome items from flooding the Auction House and bringing up the rest of the playerbase cheaply.

No matter what, the Auction House is going to get flooded with items. However it is psychologically better for the player to find their own amazing items.

Stupid analogy. I am sorry, I like you, Drothvader, but this is just stupid.
What you're saying is basically, that if the gear is not BoA, then the game is dysfunctional, like a blind squirrel trying to find a nut. This is not the case.

If the squirrel finds a nut, nobody tells the squirrel what to do with it's own nut (lol). She get to CHOOSE whether to eat it right away, store it for later or give it's blind buddy squirrel.
What's your problem with players choosing what to do with their own items?

It's not just about finding any old regular nut, it's about finding that nut that everyone else wants to find.

Think of it this way.

I am one player.

Now if I'm farming up hundreds of really awesome items, I am effectively gearing hundreds of players.

If I am finding hundreds of BoA items, then I'm only gearing myself. Highly valued NON-BOA items will still be dropping during this time, but I am not flooding the market as frequently with them.

I am continually farming the end game to improve MY OWN character. I can't just trade off the last item I wore every time I get an upgrade and keep reflooding the market. There's incentive for items to be removed from the economy.

The only way the Auction House will ever thrive is if items are REMOVED from circulation at the same frequency as they are found. There are several ways to solve this, but they all largely involve binding the gear to the player.
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Nothing I say is Official word from Blizzard, everything is of my own conjecture.
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03/02/2013 09:08 PMPosted by Chillaxin
Drothvader is implying that BOA is a requirement for a successful economy, which is completely untrue.

I am not sure he mentioned the economy.
03/02/2013 08:17 PMPosted by Drothvader
Without BoA, D3 feels like trying to use a computer without a monitor. You might get lucky and click on what you want, but the chances of that happening are so slim. While a blind squirrel might sometimes find a nut, they certainly aren't as effective as one who can see.

Here's my analogy:

Actually it's exactly the other way around. If most of the quality gear and especially set items were to be BoA and I couldn't buy it, then the chance of actually getting the items I want are obviously pretty slim. As if I am the blind squirrel.

The current system actually allowed me to get the items I wanted. Now I've got both my computer and my monitor.
What you're asking is for me to give up my monitor, so that I can get more "satisfaction" and, so that I don't feel so forced to use my eyesight. But that's not even the real reason.
The real reason you are asking me to give up my monitor would be, because you and whole bunch of noobs of the other side of the world (neither of whom I know nor care about) don't know **** about computers and you're just jealous I am better than you, so you want my monitor, so that I become just as blind as you are.

There, that's a better analogy :D:D:D
Edited by Noxifer#2606 on 3/2/2013 9:53 PM PST
03/02/2013 09:22 PMPosted by Drothvader
The only way the Auction House will ever thrive is if items are REMOVED from circulation at the same frequency as they are found. There are several ways to solve this,


This part of Drothvader's philosophy I can agree with. However, it doesn't mean bind-on-account is the correct solution.

A game with an auction house economy needs item sinks.

There are many fun and rewarding ways to have item sinks. The forums have been flooded with great ideas that fell on deaf ears.
My wife loves Diablo 3 specifically because of the free respecs given.

The whole idea of spending dozens or hundreds of hours in an RPG of any kind only to find out the build you like isn't viable and can't make it past a certain progression point is terrible.

She, like many others I know, hoard stat points or simply NEVER SPEND THEM in fear of placing them incorrectly. As a result, they hit road blocks in games that have those systems, and as a result they have to quit as they can't progress.

I don't put thousands of hours of work into my job working on computer software only to find out one day that I need to know how to cook pastries the next morning or I am fired.

Games shouldn't work that way either, and Diablo II was a trainwreck of epic proportions in regards to that. The game never at one point tells you that if you spend a few points here and there that you aren't viable at the end game, and can't actually finish all the content. Or that putting ANY points in energy except on an Energy Shield Sorc is a complete waste.

How many games have you played that you "saved" things for the end only to find out you either didn't need them or didn't know if you wanted to commit to having that change?

Not everyone has 50 hours to reroll a character just to get back to where they were, and you can't buy characters yet.
03/02/2013 09:43 PMPosted by Baldafor
Games shouldn't work that way either, and Diablo II was a trainwreck of epic proportions in regards to that.


02/28/2013 06:58 PMPosted by Travis Day
People want more ways to feel different from their neighbor


At least Diablo 2 had ways of being different from each other.

It would be nice to have more character customization (choices) In diablo 3. Every demonhunter has every skill. Every demonhunter buys the gear with the highest numbers they could afford. You might see the numbers 72 and 89 as choices, but for most people we just see that 89 will always be better than 72 and we will always pick the highest number. In other games gear that didn't have the highest number was still viable choices.

When I was playing other action RPG's and my friend's told me to try WoW, I did. I was disgusted by the loot in that game because they had no flavor, and was just stat-sticks. The higher number the better everytime.

No one can argue and say there is more choices in Diablo3 character creation.

I have a demonhunter.

I don't have a dark elf demonhunter or a human demhunter.

I don't have a Trap demonhunter or a Spreadshot demonhunter or a pet demonhunter.

I don't have a Melee demonhunter or a cannon demonhunter or bow demonhunter or a spellcaster demonhunter.

I don't have a strength demonhunter, or an intelligence demonhunter, or an attack speed proc-based demonhunter.

I JUST HAVE A DEMON HUNTER. The same as every other demonhunter.
People that bash players simply for them taking part in the Annual Pass are making the same mistake as those that bash players for not having a high level Hardcore character and branding them as idiots. One doesn't need to have obtained this game through any specific means to be able to provide meaningful input. They simply need tolerance and the ability to learn both from what they've experienced, as well as their own successes and failures, and then turn that into good feedback.I was one of the Annual Pass holders, but I did rightfully make the distiction that for many of us, especially those that took the AP offer early on and ended up not liking where WoW went with MoP, we kind of got the shaft as it were because we were locked into a year of WoW, even if we didn't play it much/at all after D3 came out. I personally had six months left of my AP "requirements" when D3 came out, so that's 6 * $15, which comes to $90, or just under what the D3:CE cost when it was available.But I got double shafted because I had pre-ordered the D3:CE and didn't get a copy because of overbooking, and Blizzard never did right by those of us that were willing to buy the CE by not making a second batch for those of us that had legitimate pre-orders that went unfulfilled. So I lost both the CE itself, and the CE perk from the AP which would have given me credit for four of those six remaining "required" months of WoW paid time.The Annual Pass was a booster for Blizzard, and a very bitter and harsh lesson for many of us that took it early on and got the dirty end of the stick. It didn't help any when I saw that the devs had "found" several copies of the CE (signed or otherwise) and given them out to the fansites instead of those that were in the AP and who'd had pre-orders that went unfulfilled. So to this day, I have no CE, and I'm cetainly not going to pay $150 for one because Blizzard couldn't do the right thing by their customers.I learned my lesson. I don't view my purchase of the AP as a complete failure since I do enjoy Diablo 3 for what it is (even if it has yet to surpass "meh" stature), but I do see it as at least a partial failure due to not being able to make full use of it, even if that was caused by the company that was supposed to make those available to us specifically so we could make good on all of the AP's features.So I have a fair bit of experience behind my purchase of the AP that I use to temper how I look at Diablo 3, but I'm also smart enough to only temper the esoteric portion of my views on the game, and leave the AP baggage at the door when it comes to dealing with the real meat and potatoes issues still plaguing this game.


Hey Man, Im not "bashing" players who took advantage of the Annual Pass.
In fact I think its not a good idea to "bash" or insult anyone.

I feel for you for the raw deal you got!

I blame blizzard because of thier marketing techniques.

I think that if not for the AP, many people would not have "bought" D3 or even tried the free trial version. I simply think that the AP deal "attracted" many people to this game that didnt really understand or even like Diablo 2.

When they got here they thought/expected it to be somewhat like WoW, and tried to push the game towards being more like wow as opposed to being more like D2.

AND I BELIEVE THEY ARE STILL DOING THAT!

(this is just my guess as to why the "WoW bashing" and that is all I was trying to say)

My point of view is: Dont try to make D3 more wow like, because you liked wow and got tired of it or didnt like where MoP was going. Not saying that you are personally doing this.

I will agree that D3 probably even could use/incorporate some stuff from other genre games, but at its core it needs to be a DIABLO game.

If you (or anyone else) happens to like BOTH types of games GREAT, but I think there may be very few of you.
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