Diablo® III

The Salvation of Diablo 3: A Guide by Gosu

Yes, I read the whole thing.

I just disagree with it.

So you disagree, that I should have the right to chose what to do with the gear, that I've found? I shouldn't have the right to chose whether I use the item or give it to a friend?

The chance to find a 700 DPS weapon hasn't improved too much since 1.0.3, however they are currently next to worthless.

As many players have found more items and flooded the market, the value of 700 DPS weapons has DRASTICALLY been reduced. As the intrinsic value is based on the items rarity, the item is no longer rare because it's plentiful on the Auction House.

No, the reason the 700 DPS weapons have lost their value is not, because they are so abundant, rather, because there are currently hellavalot more better items which got released with 1.04 and 1.05. Don't try to take things out of the real context.

Now if I'm farming up hundreds of really awesome items, I am effectively gearing hundreds of players.

If I am finding hundreds of BoA items, then I'm only gearing myself. Highly valued NON-BOA items will still be dropping during this time, but I am not flooding the market as frequently with them.

I am continually farming the end game to improve MY OWN character.

What's the problem wiht you gearing up hundreds of players? You've found all those items. You should be allowed to chose what to do with them.
03/02/2013 09:22 PMPosted by Drothvader
The only way the Auction House will ever thrive is if items are REMOVED from circulation at the same frequency as they are found.

Why do I care whether or not the Auction House thrives? I care for the players, not for some artificial entity!
If you want items to be removed from circulation, then ask for BoE (bind on equip) as opposed to BoA (bind on account). At least this way players get to chose what to do with their items as opposed to getting a BoA item (which in your view is equal to "bind on pick up" so that I don't get to "gear hundreds of players").

Again, what is the problem with me gearing uo hundreds of players? So far I've itemized 3 characters of my own and around ten characters of friends of mine. If I could I would grant gear to hundreds of players and they will thrive!
If you get satisfaction from playing self found and that for you is thriving -- then thrive!
I still fail to see why you want everybody else to play the game the exact way you do. Are you control freak or something?
Edited by Noxifer#2606 on 3/2/2013 10:01 PM PST
03/02/2013 10:31 AMPosted by familia

They are different games. But all 3 games can learn from each other to better themselves.


He's under the impression that his opinion matters. Except Blizzard has absolute creative control and he's just some nerd who buys their games.


I thought your motto was "Everyone's entitled [to their opinion]."

Or did you change your name so you could change your own troll philosophies so you wouldn't like like a hypocrite, Ender?
Sorry, these forums be broken with editing, apparently.
Actually you'd be surprised at how many of us WoW players (or former players, like myself) either don't talk about WoW, or ask that WoW mechanics be kept out of D3. The only reason anything WoW is even necessary at this point (BtA, proc coefficients) is because of how horribly wrong the itemization in the game was done and how people obtained those items (or didn't, especially with regard to the set items).

In reality, those that played Diablo 2, then WoW, and then Diablo 3 may end up having some of the best ability to provide input on this game, providing they can converse with any modicum of civility since they have played several games with varying mechanics and know what works, what doesn't work, and why, respectively.

Believe it or not, Diablo 3 could take a few hints from of all games

Why you are not an MVP at this point is beyond me...

This is what people need to understand. Those who have experienced a wide array of games are the most valuable resources for constructive feedback. It's pretty easy to play one single game and try and analyze why it was good or bad, but when you play a plethora of games you tend to see patterns in games and understand why certain games are fun for you, and why others are not.

I do not want D3 to be a direct clone of WoW, but there are certainly pieces of the magic formula that work for WoW that can easily be adapted for D3.

Considering a lot of WoW's mechanics came from Diablo in the first place it's not really making the game more like WoW, but more like bringing Diablo back to its core foundation for success. Sure, D2 had a model that worked for it, and if we didn't have a central Auction House in D3 the current model would probably most certainly work. But D3 has already adopted some of these ideas and it's time the synergies of these systems were completed. These concepts don't work entirely on their own, they work because they work well together as a whole.

I think a lot of people are still missing that picture.


Funny enough, you're an MVP, and you also didn't play D2. Curious.
02/28/2013 06:58 PMPosted by Travis Day
Thanks for taking the time to put your thoughts on paper for us. There are a lot of topics here that deserve attention and I want to share our views on them with all of you. Stay a while and listen.


Wall of junk...and after this wall of junk there we have the suckups...THEY HAVE THE PERCEPTION ABOUT BLIZZARD IMPROVED BY OVER 900 000
03/02/2013 10:01 PMPosted by Mith
Funny enough, you're an MVP, and you also didn't play D2. Curious.

That is not a true fact.

I did play D2, however not as religiously as "D2 vets"

Stating that I have never picked up and played D2 is completely false and I would appreciate it if that wasn't continually perpetuated.
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MVP's are not employees of Blizzard Entertainment. We are players just like you.
Nothing I say is Official word from Blizzard, everything is of my own conjecture.
I don't have moderation powers and I am not a Blizzard Representative.
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Also some contradictions:

I know I contradict myself by writing "I don't care about bunch of noobs on the other side of the world" and at the same time I am saying, that I care about the players and I want them to thrive. That's OK, but keep in mind one of those posts was an analogy.

What bothers me is this:

Drothvader, at least in my opinion is contradicting himself beyond belief.
On one hand he wants the BoA model from WoW. He things it makes for a "more satisfying gameplay" and that without it the game is dysfunctional, like "trying to play on a computer without a monitor", or like a "blind squirrel trying to find a nut".
03/02/2013 08:17 PMPosted by Drothvader
Now, if those set items were BoA instead and the player was able to find them themselves more easily, it would make for more satisfying gameplay


03/02/2013 08:17 PMPosted by Drothvader
Without BoA, D3 feels like trying to use a computer without a monitor. You might get lucky and click on what you want, but the chances of that happening are so slim. While a blind squirrel might sometimes find a nut, they certainly aren't as effective as one who can see.

He also blames the Auction House for the current model not working for Diablo3:
03/02/2013 05:32 PMPosted by Drothvader
D2 had a model that worked for it, and if we didn't have a central Auction House in D3 the current model would probably most certainly work

At the same time, he's concerned about the well being of the economy, he doesn't want to over-flood the market and want's the Auction House to thrive.
03/02/2013 09:22 PMPosted by Drothvader
Highly valued NON-BOA items will still be dropping during this time, but I am not flooding the market as frequently with them.

03/02/2013 09:22 PMPosted by Drothvader
The only way the Auction House will ever thrive is if items are REMOVED from circulation at the same frequency as they are found.

03/02/2013 09:22 PMPosted by Drothvader
There's incentive for items to be removed from the economy.

I am getting confused. I want clarification from you, Drothvader.

Which items exactly do you want to be Account Bound (BoA)? And on what principle it's decided which of those items get bound to you?
You want them all to be bound pick up (so that you can't gear up hundreds of other players) or on equip(BoE, which essentially allows you to gear up hundreds of players)?

Do you want the players to thrive by finding their gear for themselves, or you want the Auction House to thrive?
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03/02/2013 09:36 PMPosted by Noxifer
Actually it's exactly the other way around. If most of the quality gear and especially set items were to be BoA and I couldn't buy it, then the chance of actually getting the items I want are obviously pretty slim. As if I am the blind squirrel.


You're assuming that under the scenario Drothvader used as an example that the drop rates would remain the same. They would most likely go up simply because they wouldn't be on the AH at all, thus they're only found by the players themselves, not by perusing a smorgasboard list. In that situation, because of increased drop rates, perhaps matching or even exceeding Diablo 2's overall drop rates (which are far far FAR more frequent than anything in Diablo 3 sans the "guaranteed rare" via NV stacks), you'd be finding the items much more than you think. You might not find the item you want right away, but you'd find items of value, meaning the loot trek is less frustrating by quite a bit.

03/02/2013 09:36 PMPosted by Noxifer
The current system actually allowed me to get the items I wanted. Now I've got both my computer and my monitor.


Except your monitor is simply premade visual navigation for your computer, and your computer doles things out at the pace of a Trash-80. With some (but not all) of the powerful items as BoA, your computer would output more in line with a high end Pentium III. That doesn't sound "great" when you take it literally and compare it with today's top clock CPUs, but in terms of the item drop scale, it's right in line with what Diablo 2 delivered relative to both the low end and high end of the curve.

What you're asking for is simply the ability to get your gear without any effort, which is easy under premade navigation (Auction House). What the vast majority of players want is self-found progression that is fulfilling both during leveling and at "end game" without taking years (or the entire span of a game's/expansion pack's life) to achieve.

The AH wasn't designed as a supplement. It was designed as the "go to". There's no way around that considering that a) that's how most players feel at some (many) points in their gameplay, b) gear that they do find most of the time has no intrinsic value because of the supreme ease outside of gold buying/farming in obtaining AH items, and c) the base average item drop rate was made remarkably low outside of artificial "enhancers" such as Nephalem Valor and Paragon Levels, such to the point that while rares were actually rare, due to the horrible affix roll design you almost never see loot worth a damn without a max level character with full MF/NV buffs.

Without hope of finding items by one's own self, the core premise of the game falls apart and the game crumbles under the weight of its own ill-conceived design. That's where we are right now: solid gameplay, lousy rewards unless we buy them ourselves.

Somehow I don't quite get the same endorphine boost from clicking "Buy it Now" that I do when I find something awesome on my own.

03/02/2013 09:36 PMPosted by Noxifer
The real reason you are asking me to give up my monitor would be, because you and whole bunch of noobs of the other side of the world (neither of whom I know nor care about) don't know **** about computers and you're just jealous I am better than you, so you want my monitor, so that I become just as blind as you are.


So basically your only real retort here is to just go and say "I know you are, but what am I?" like some spoiled child. OK. You've got some real credibility there, son. Let us know how far that gets you.

At least now we know not to bother taking you seriously. Nice troll though.

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03/02/2013 10:41 PMPosted by Noxifer
I am getting confused. I want clarification from you, Drothvader.

Ok, I can attempt to dilute the muddy waters if you would like.

03/02/2013 10:41 PMPosted by Noxifer
Which items exactly do you want to be Account Bound (BoA)? And on what principle it's decided which of those items get bound to you?

Nothing that's in game currently. Items that I would like to see BoA would be items with extended roll thresholds, special set items for the class you're currently playing... ect...

Basically, items that are guaranteed to be really high quality, but go above and beyond the current loot system. However, not quite so drastically.

A good example of this is the crafted BoA items. They're guaranteed to have at least 1 primary stat, and the threshold for the roll is heightened. Let's say it's currently possible to roll between 20-200. These items will instead roll between 150-300.

Specifically really high powered items that you know exist, and if you do happen to find one you're almost guaranteed for it to be good.

This will allow people to use the AH to fill in the gaps of gear they haven't found, but allow them to still find really high quality gear. The only difference is if they can actually find an upgrade for that BoA item, they can't pass it down to someone else. Other characters on their account, sure, but not someone else. The point is to give you incentive to keep farming without forcing you into the Auction House.

03/02/2013 10:41 PMPosted by Noxifer
Do you want the players to thrive by finding their gear for themselves, or you want the Auction House to thrive?

Both will thrive.

If you look at WoW, there are certain BoE Epic items that drop in raids that can be freely traded. Some of them are quite good, but are overshadowed by the items that you find in raids that are BoP. These items go for quite a lot on the Auction House. The Auction House still thrives, but you're not entirely dependent on it.

So yes, I want players to be motivated to find gear in Sanctuary for themselves, not because someone else who farms more efficiently found it for them first.

03/02/2013 10:41 PMPosted by Noxifer
Drothvader, at least in my opinion is contradicting himself beyond belief.

I'm not, you're just building a straw man by quoting me out of context. ;) You're taking what I'm saying and not only misquoting it, but also simplifying my arguments and attacking the simplified version. You have to take the whole statement into context.

You're forgetting a large part of the equation that is that Droprates are lower BECAUSE the AH exists. Since droprates are lower, it's less satisfying than it was in D2 because you're more focused on trading on the Auction House. Sure there's still trading on D2, but it's on a much smaller scale. As a result, the drop rate can be higher to facilitate that. In effect, the addition of the Auction House has DRASTICALLY lowered the potential for high drop rates as Blizzard doesn't want people to just go to the AH and deck themselves out for next to no gold.

Your power should be equal to the time invested into the game. Having a BoA model facilitates that.

03/02/2013 10:41 PMPosted by Noxifer
At the same time, he's concerned about the well being of the economy, he doesn't want to over-flood the market and want's the Auction House to thrive.

Again, you're misquoting me.

I don't want the economy to be flooded with handmedowns. It's those items that devalue everything in the economy.

If you were able to sell and equip an item once, and only once, then you're creating value by removing that item from trade. BoA does this as well. You can't trade down your BoA item to someone else so you're not flooding the economy with handmedowns.

You have to look at the WHOLE picture, not just snapshots.
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MVP's are not employees of Blizzard Entertainment. We are players just like you.
Nothing I say is Official word from Blizzard, everything is of my own conjecture.
I don't have moderation powers and I am not a Blizzard Representative.
MVP FAQ: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/4038704716#2
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Drothvader, at least in my opinion is contradicting himself beyond belief.
On one hand he wants the BoA model from WoW. He things it makes for a "more satisfying gameplay" and that without it the game is dysfunctional, like "trying to play on a computer without a monitor", or like a "blind squirrel trying to find a nut".


Do note that Drothvader is stating this under the current loot model. Which brings me to...

03/02/2013 10:41 PMPosted by Noxifer
He also blames the Auction House for the current model not working for Diablo3:


That isn't what he says at all. The current loot model is a byproduct of the Auction House. It's the other way around from how you just said it. The current model cannot work period, auction house or no auction house simply because it's too restrictive, relies on too many "crutches" (Nephalem Valor, Paragon Level bonuses), and makes finding gear on your own to be the most frustrating task you could possibly do in this game at best.

Note that BoA is necessary under this set of circumstances to at least temporarily remedy the problem, but it does not fully solve it. Drothvader has already admitted that BoA cannot fully solve the inherent design flaws of the current itemization and loot models. He's merely stated, quite correctly, that it's a necessity to prop it up and save it from complete and utter collapse at both ends (players quitting due to frustration of never finding anything and/or not being able to afford anything of worth from the system that brought this all on us in the first place).

03/02/2013 10:41 PMPosted by Noxifer
At the same time, he's concerned about the well being of the economy, he doesn't want to over-flood the market and want's the Auction House to thrive.


Since the "economy" is apparently here to stay, especially if we're never given an Offline mode where we can fully enjoy the self-found route without interference from any outside influences, Drothvader is pointing out that without some form of a combination item sink/item removal/gold removal system, the market reaches a bursting point where it can no longer sustain itself. Real economies suffer the same type of effects when premium goods are put out for sale, and then knock offs (the equivalant of bots and dupers) enter the picture, driving down the cost of the real goods to the point that they're not capable of sustaining a free market while at the same time flooding everything else into both obscurance and obsolescance in rapid order.

Basically, the current state of Diablo 3 is a perfect storm of horrible itemization, vastly unrewarding loot model, and a house of cards holding it all up. It wouldn't take much more to bring that house of cards tumbling down. We've already seen the signs of that for the last few months where the AH became so saturated that only the very best items held any intrinsic value and only those that exploited the system early and often could afford what they wanted, while the rest had to settle for scraps of any kind.

Frankly I'd rather be able to find my own things in one form or another (loot, crafting, gambling) than peck at the crumbs thrown to us by those who command the economy via exploitation.

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03/02/2013 10:08 PMPosted by Drothvader
Funny enough, you're an MVP, and you also didn't play D2. Curious.

That is not a true fact.

I did play D2, however not as religiously as "D2 vets"

Stating that I have never picked up and played D2 is completely false and I would appreciate it if that wasn't continually perpetuated.


It's something you yourself said.
03/02/2013 11:10 PMPosted by Mith
It's something you yourself said.

No it isn't, I said I only played a hundred or so hours over the span of 3-4 years. That does not mean I didn't play at all. So while it's true that I wasn't a hardcore D2 player, I still played D2.

I would appreciate it if you would stop building straw men. This conversation is not about me, I would appreciate it if it remained that way.
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MVP's are not employees of Blizzard Entertainment. We are players just like you.
Nothing I say is Official word from Blizzard, everything is of my own conjecture.
I don't have moderation powers and I am not a Blizzard Representative.
MVP FAQ: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/4038704716#2
Drothvader, actually it is you who are taking things out of their context and you're trying to fit them the way you want. Gonna giver you two examples:

The first was the part about the 700DPS weapons.
Remember back in 1.0.2 and 1.0.3? Rare weapons with 700 DPS on it were actually worth something. At that point they were still rare.

The chance to find a 700 DPS weapon hasn't improved too much since 1.0.3, however they are currently next to worthless.

You took that completely out of context and forgot to mention, that the real reason many of those weapons are not obsolete are the new items released with 1.04.

Now I catch you in a second attempt to take things out of their context:
03/02/2013 11:00 PMPosted by Drothvader
You're forgetting a large part of the equation that is that Droprates are lower BECAUSE the AH exists. Since droprates are lower, it's less satisfying than it was in D2 because you're more focused on trading on the Auction House. Sure there's still trading on D2, but it's on a much smaller scale. As a result, the drop rate can be higher to facilitate that.

You're forgetting (may be even on purpose), that the droprates in Diablo2 were higher, because there is relatively frequent ladder reset. And since you're talking about trading, I would have to assume you're talking about playing ladder over battle.net, since trading on non-ladder is hell, and trading over LAN is non-existent (people just duplicate the item).

Quite frankly the more I read from you, the more I think you didn't really play Diablo2, only you read about it somewhere.
I am also starting to think, that even if Blizzard implement your suggestion (which they pretty much already did with the new crafts), you'll still find something to complain about. Did you even bother to try out the new crafted items?
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You're forgetting (may be even on purpose), that the droprates in Diablo2 were higher, because there is relatively frequent ladder reset. And since you're talking about trading, I would have to assume you're talking about playing ladder over battle.net, since trading on non-ladder is hell, and trading over LAN is non-existent (people just duplicate the item).


Just for reference, the drop rates for non-ladder were exactly the same as ladder, only certain items could only be obtained via ladder, and only after the ladder season ended would those items enter the non-ladder arena. The item drop rates in Diablo 2 were higher because player based trading (direct bartering) is far less efficient and more cumbersome than the auction house will ever be, thus a higher drop rate could be afforded with little to no impact on the overall health of the game. Ladders simply acted as item dumps, since if you wanted the newest and greatest each season, you started fresh.

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You took that completely out of context and forgot to mention, that the real reason many of those weapons are not obsolete are the new items released with 1.04.

Now I catch you in a second attempt to take things out of their context:

No, you took it completely out of context. Both statements say the same basic thing.

Items are valued less because there is more of them.

HOWEVER, you can still allow players to find high quality items more often if you DON'T ALLOW THEM TO TRADE THEM.

You're forgetting (may be even on purpose), that the droprates in Diablo2 were higher, because there is relatively frequent ladder reset. And since you're talking about trading, I would have to assume you're talking about playing ladder over battle.net, since trading on non-ladder is hell, and trading over LAN is non-existent (people just duplicate the item).

Lol? The droprates weren't raised because of the ladder. The ladder was put in to remove items from the economy...

See, you have the potential to see the point I'm making but you're still missing it. The whole point is to REMOVE items from the economy. Whether you do this by not allowing people to trade away their handmedown items, or by simply just deleting them, they both have the same effect.

03/02/2013 11:20 PMPosted by Noxifer
I am also starting to think, that even if Blizzard implement your suggestion (which they pretty much already did with the new crafts), you'll still find something to complain about.

I will always find something to improve because that's human nature my friend. We only got where we are today by improving the things we had yesterday.

The first plane was made out of a plywood frame and cloth. Since then the design has been greatly improved.

I simply seek to help with the continual improvement. Complaining is the wrong word to use here.
________________________________________________
MVP's are not employees of Blizzard Entertainment. We are players just like you.
Nothing I say is Official word from Blizzard, everything is of my own conjecture.
I don't have moderation powers and I am not a Blizzard Representative.
MVP FAQ: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/4038704716#2
Basically, the current state of Diablo 3 is a perfect storm of horrible itemization, vastly unrewarding loot model, and a house of cards holding it all up. It wouldn't take much more to bring that house of cards tumbling down. We've already seen the signs of that for the last few months where the AH became so saturated that only the very best items held any intrinsic value and only those that exploited the system early and often could afford what they wanted, while the rest had to settle for scraps of any kind.

Frankly I'd rather be able to find my own things in one form or another (loot, crafting, gambling) than peck at the crumbs thrown to us by those who command the economy via exploitation.


I absolutely agree. Tell me what are we going to do about it!
Are we going to storm up the Blizzard headquarters in Irvine? If so -- when?

You do realize that they intentionally made the game like this? It's not like someone slipped on a banana and farted out the Auction House as he hit the ground...
03/02/2013 11:29 PMPosted by Drothvader
Lol? The droprates weren't raised because of the ladder. The ladder was put in to remove items from the economy...

Facepalm. The ladder didn't "remove items from the economy", it completely reset the whole thing. The droprates were scaled so that you can find a whole bunch of items within the months between the ladder reset.
In Diablo3 we have no ladder reset. We have all the time in the world to get the items that we want, or at least up until the expansion (at which point I don't really know what's going to happen).
Edited by Noxifer#2606 on 3/2/2013 11:46 PM PST
diablo 2 seemed that it had some rewards even for the casual players like me...nowdays diablo 3 seems that if you don't farm your bones out you have no way to advance

See, you have the potential to see the point I'm making but you're still missing it. The whole point is to REMOVE items from the economy. Whether you do this by not allowing people to trade away their handmedown items, or by simply just deleting them, they both have the same effect.


You should go back to Hardcore. You sure did help the economy in this regard.
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