Diablo® III

The Salvation of Diablo 3: A Guide by Gosu

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Facepalm. The ladder didn't "remove items from the economy", it completely reset the whole thing. The droprates were scaled so that you can find a whole bunch of items within the months between the ladder reset.
In Diablo3 we have no ladder reset. We have all the time in the world to get the items that we want, or at least up until the expansion (at which point I don't really know what's going to happen).

Hmmm, "remove items from the economy" vs "remove items AND characters from the economy"

I guess you're right, the ladder didn't remove items. They just stayed floating in space for the player to come around and find them for the next ladder season.

Silly me...
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I absolutely agree. Tell me what are we going to do about it!
Are we going to storm up the Blizzard headquarters in Irvine? If so -- when?


Sigh.

03/02/2013 11:32 PMPosted by Noxifer
You do realize that they intentionally made the game like this? It's not like someone slipped on a banana and farted out the Auction House as he hit the ground?


Blizzard created a business model, with the unfortunate side effect of not fully realizing just how bad that business model made the game look, especially since it affected the core premise of what all Diablo games are about: finding loot and making your characters stronger. They're simply starting to understand that starving your customers doesn't make them come back for more, nor does flooding them with garbage. You need a balance of rarity and quality, both of which are lacking in the game right now.

03/02/2013 11:32 PMPosted by Noxifer
Facepalm. The ladder didn't "remove items from the economy", it completely reset the whole thing. The droprates were scaled so that you can find a whole bunch of items within the months between the ladder reset.


See above in my previous post - ladder and non-ladder had the exact same item drop chances. Only the addition of certain powerful items set ladder apart from non-ladder.

There were two kinds of players that played ladder. Those that longed for the competitive edge and latest and greatest, and those that wanted items that couldn't be found otherwise, but would still be around once their character was converted to non-ladder. For the former, the economy was reset each time yes. For the latter, it was simple item removal/control (a natural chokepoint for items entering into an already established [non-ladder] economy).

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03/01/2013 07:54 PMPosted by Noxifer
Gosu, thanks for your input. I enjoyed reading it. A lot of it was your opinion you claimed incorrectly as fact, facts you got wrong

Pretty much this. I am very glad I wasn't the one to notice that.
What he basically did was, that he branded a whole array of both active and passive skills and branded them bad and useless, even ones which can be used to a great effect.

Again, a gamer is supposed to try and find a way to utilize what he's been given instead of just brand it useless. It's not an objective approach.
Again, this is not how a gamer should approach things, nor a game developer wannabe.

I can already guess Goku's response, either "You haven't played enough" or "You don't understand". Just because people disagree with you doesn't mean, that they don't understand the subject. They just don't agree.


Your disagreements are based on a beginner's understanding of the game. I'm really very sorry and I don't mean to be rude but that's just the way it is. I would give you a much longer explanation as to what logic brought me to that conclusion but I honestly just feel like it's a waste of time. Some people aren't going to agree and that's totally okay. If I respect the reasons for your disagreements and I think that you bring up valid points and demonstrate a respectable knowledge of the game then I will either agree with you, or do everything I can to get you to understand my side.

Being able to get SOME use out of a skill does not make it a good skill. When I said "useless" I did not mean it in the perfectly literal sense.

I'm going to use this guy for an example as to why I just don't want to take the time to respond to all of this stuff and, instead, focus on the responses that really pique my interests. As much as I want to, I just can't respond to every post in great detail.

Belial still is a nice challenge. It is my favourite boss because of the skill needed to beat it. Well for most builds. In v1.0 it was a little harsh though. With most builds being one shot (when you have good gear on) by a boss is never fun. I think Belial should be a touch harder then it is now but the boss meshanics work well.

Monster affixes are not impossible to avoid. I think it's quite the opposite. Even as a melee, avoiding frozen, plagued, arcane, molten etc is very easy. Just walk out of it.


In the first 8 sentences this guy has demonstrated a complete lack of understanding both of the game and of my OP. Lets go over each one point by point. Note that I won't be doing this for anyone else, I just wanted certain people to understand why I'm not responding to them.

I ONLY used Belial as an example because of the TYPE of challenge the fight offers. I wasn't trying to compare the overall challenge with any other part of the game, nor did I ever say that the current Belial isn't fun or challenging. The point seems to have been missed here entirely.

"Monster affixes are not impossible to avoid. I think it's quite the opposite. Even as a melee, avoiding frozen, plagued, arcane, molten etc is very easy. Just walk out of it."

This is the one that did me in.

Obviously monster affixes are not IMPOSSIBLE to avoid. I said that they were too inconvenient and/or difficult to avoid consistently. Also, I never included frozen in that mix. Frozen is almost always easy to avoid and it's actually a fine example of a "fun" monster affix. The whole point of the affix explanation was to illustrate that certain challenges are destined to be circumvented with ease due to the nature of the game while other challenges, like certain aspects of the Belial encounter, are at least PARTIALLY unavoidable with gear(or WERE in vanilla inferno).

I really do appreciate the feedback of every single person here, but I just don't have the time, energy or motivation to explain to some people why they're wrong. Put at LEAST 500 hours into the game, level a character up to paragon 100 and accomplish a gear value of over 1 billion gold. After you do those things, I think you will undoubtedly understand the reason for my opinions.

I'm not saying those things are required to partake in this discussion, I'm simply saying that those of you who disagree who have not accomplished those things, you might be surprised by what you will learn.
Thanks Travis, your post made me believe that my time was not wasted playing D3, but instead a good stepping stone for my future as a player. Much appreciated!
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Blizzard created a business model, with the unfortunate side effect of not fully realizing just how bad that business model made the game look, especially since it affected the core premise of what all Diablo games are about: finding loot and making your characters stronger. They're simply starting to understand that starving your customers doesn't make them come back for more

OK, how do we teach em that we don't take kindly to such business models, ones which starve the players? They already got our money.
The only thing I can think off is for the players to massively boycott the expansion, but the way I see it Blizzard will promise a whole bunch of awesome stuff, they are gonna get our money for the second time and starve us all over again.

What do you suggest?
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I really do appreciate the feedback of every single person here, but I just don't have the time, energy or motivation to explain to some people why they're wrong. Put at LEAST 500 hours into the game, level a character up to paragon 100 and accomplish a gear value of over 1 billion gold. After you do those things, I think you will undoubtedly understand the reason for my opinions.


I don't see how paragon levels even fit into that particular statement (which is the first time I've disagreed with you so far here). All Paragon Levels are is a grind, pure and simple. You gain the ability to trade some MF on gear for more defensive or damage affixes, but aside from that, it's just a simple grind (the stat bonuses each level are negligible).

Also accomplishing a gear value of over 1 billion is both subjective and unobtainable for a great majority of players, and as such you sort of lumped those people into the "sorry, your view on the game isn't worth anything" category. I'm not saying that's necessarily your intent, but that's how it comes off. :/

I have only PL 35, coming on 36 and I wholeheartedly understand your reasoning. You don't necessarily have to be among the 1% to understand that if you have a firm grasp of how concepts such as those you've used for examples can work.

Don't fall into the same trap other players do by saying that just because you don't have high paragon HC characters that your opinions or experience are worthless. ^_^

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Gosu

Is there anyway you can make a video about this thread? its really interesting and has a lot of key points of "how to improve D3" or maybe "How D3 can be for seen in the future" thanks


As much as I would love to do this for people that would appreciate and/or enjoy such a thing, I really just don't have the time for that kind of effort at the moment. It would undoubtedly be a long and difficult process as I wouldn't want to leave out ANYTHING.

Who knows, maybe in the future? lol
Gosu

Is there anyway you can make a video about this thread? its really interesting and has a lot of key points of "how to improve D3" or maybe "How D3 can be for seen in the future" thanks


As much as I would love to do this for people that would appreciate and/or enjoy such a thing, I really just don't have the time for that kind of effort at the moment. It would undoubtedly be a long and difficult process as I wouldn't want to leave out ANYTHING.

Who knows, maybe in the future? lol

Gosu is completely on point. (Tho I don't want the removal of stun and freeze and the like, as I actually do use and like those, and think that elemental dmg has lots of potential). But I had to bump for justice and that a blue has actually responded to a thread like this.

+1 my good man


Thanks for your feedback. Just wanted to clarify real quick; I am not for the removal of stun, freeze etc. I'm for the removal of affixes that do the exact same thing as another affix. Freeze is a stun, stun is a stun, why do we need both? lol I also used those as examples because the potential value's that you can roll of those affixes on the majority of items is so low that the affix might as well not even exist.
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03/02/2013 11:57 PMPosted by TheTias
Also accomplishing a gear value of over 1 billion is both subjective and unobtainable for a great majority of players, and as such you sort of lumped those people into the "sorry, your view on the game isn't worth anything" category. I'm not saying that's necessarily your intent, but that's how it comes off. :/

Not to mention it's a straw man argument...

Someone could have something completely valid to say, yet they're being completely dismissed because suddenly since they don't meet some stupid criteria, everything they say is worthless.

You know Gosu, there are those of us who are more than capable of being Paragon level 100 by now but simply have absolutely no motivation to do so.

Just because someone can grind their face against a cheese grater with great determination doesn't automatically make them more deserving than others. =(
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Nothing I say is Official word from Blizzard, everything is of my own conjecture.
I don't have moderation powers and I am not a Blizzard Representative.
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Gosu

Is there anyway you can make a video about this thread? its really interesting and has a lot of key points of "how to improve D3" or maybe "How D3 can be for seen in the future" thanks


As much as I would love to do this for people that would appreciate and/or enjoy such a thing, I really just don't have the time for that kind of effort at the moment. It would undoubtedly be a long and difficult process as I wouldn't want to leave out ANYTHING.

Who knows, maybe in the future? lol

Gosu is completely on point. (Tho I don't want the removal of stun and freeze and the like, as I actually do use and like those, and think that elemental dmg has lots of potential). But I had to bump for justice and that a blue has actually responded to a thread like this.

+1 my good man


Thanks for your feedback. Just wanted to clarify real quick; I am not for the removal of stun, freeze etc. I'm for the removal of affixes that do the exact same thing as another affix. Freeze is a stun, stun is a stun, why do we need both? lol I also used those as examples because the potential value's that you can roll of those affixes on the majority of items is so low that the affix might as well not even exist.

Hi Gosu - I think you have some compelling ideas, that would be fun to discuss. I host a YouTube channel and on it a podcast called, "The State of Diablo 3."

I usually have a variety of guests on it, and I think it would be fun to have you come on and chat with us about your ideas more. I am sure my viewers and the D3 community would like to hear you on the show.

You can search RTG on iTunes for it, or you can find it on YouTube here:

http://bit.ly/150tPSF

I will also try to add you in game, I am Sibcoe#1756

You can also reach me via email through my YouTube Channel.

Good job.

Cheers 0/

RTG Sibcoe
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http://www.youtube.com/redteamgaming
http://www.twitter.com/redteamgaming
http://www.facebook.com/Sibcoe


I added you in game so we can chat easier.
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03/02/2013 11:47 PMPosted by Gosu
Your disagreements are based on a beginner's understanding of the game.

OK, tell me exactly what's being beginner about the fact, that you don't seem to know, that proc coefficients exist? Otherwise you wouldn't have branded Cinder Arrow useless, since it's clearly the skill rune for LoH users.

What's being beginner about the fact, that some people successfully utilize the skill rune Wall of Zombies: Pile on?
03/02/2013 11:47 PMPosted by Gosu
Being able to get SOME use out of a skill does not make it a good skill.

Did you see the videos, in which players were using the skill? Some would argue it was too good as opposed to your "useless".
I agree there are a lot of bad skill runes. Yet the way you're going about it just isn't right.

Already couple of people called you on the fact, that a lot of your views are opinions based on "facts", which you got wrong. And because you can't use proper arguments, that I am "a beginner", you just repeat it like a parrot.

From where comes the belief that you got "the good understanding of the game" and I am just a beginner? Did you even check my profile and if so -- say the exact reasons why I am the "beginner".
Until then, all these claims are void.

Where does that arrogant behavior comes from? Thinking you can brand things useless and people "beginners" left and right, without the need for proper argumentation?
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03/03/2013 12:48 AMPosted by Ðragonslayer
Pile on is trash. PERIOD.

What it's trash, you can just skip it and leave it for those who know how to use it. PERIOD.
Two different witch doctor, one is clearly MP5, the other MP10 with the trash skill:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXTzh8GHln8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6BDiXWZ7hQ
Thing to note is that these videos are several months back, at a time players didn't quite had the gear they have now.
Again, this as PvP ability, regardless if whether or not you're willing to accept that fact. It's not really meant for PvE, yet some people managed to utilize it.
Be more mad, please.
Edited by Noxifer#2606 on 3/3/2013 1:22 AM PST
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Why does it matter whether or not it's the most efficient WD skill?

If people are having fun playing it, and it actually has the desired end result of killing things, then what does it matter?

Obviously a Tempest Rush build or a WW Barb build is going to be the most efficient for those 2 classes, but there are still those who can play a FoT / Sweeping Wind build effectively or a Tanky Barb. It doesn't matter if they kill stuff in 1.5 seconds compared to your 1.2 seconds. As long as they're having fun, and certain skill don't overshadow one another it's what the system was designed to do.

Don't get me wrong, there's still a lot of ways it can be tweaked, but at the end of the day if you had more fun throwing a bunch of zombies at something rather than charging at it with an army of deadly bears, what does it matter?

That in essence is what makes Diablo fun.
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MVP's are not employees of Blizzard Entertainment. We are players just like you.
Nothing I say is Official word from Blizzard, everything is of my own conjecture.
I don't have moderation powers and I am not a Blizzard Representative.
MVP FAQ: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/4038704716#2
Why does it matter whether or not it's the most efficient WD skill?If people are having fun playing it, and it actually has the desired end result of killing things, then what does it matter?Obviously a Tempest Rush build or a WW Barb build is going to be the most efficient for those 2 classes, but there are still those who can play a FoT / Sweeping Wind build effectively or a Tanky Barb. It doesn't matter if they kill stuff in 1.5 seconds compared to your 1.2 seconds. As long as they're having fun, and certain skill don't overshadow one another it's what the system was designed to do.Don't get me wrong, there's still a lot of ways it can be tweaked, but at the end of the day if you had more fun throwing a bunch of zombies at something rather than charging at it with an army of deadly bears, what does it matter?That in essence is what makes Diablo fun.


Auuugh! You did it again!

I agree with everything you said here! Except for the last sentence!

Diablo is NOT just about smashing monsters!
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Auuugh! You did it again!

I agree with everything you said here! Except for the last sentence!

Diablo is NOT just about smashing monsters!

You know, you don't have to agree or disagree with absolutely everything.

Loot is a means to an end for me, a vehicle to get me to my end goal (Which as of now is clearing MP10 Inferno)

I have way more fun just smashing monsters. Items just keep the lust for the kill alive for me.
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MVP's are not employees of Blizzard Entertainment. We are players just like you.
Nothing I say is Official word from Blizzard, everything is of my own conjecture.
I don't have moderation powers and I am not a Blizzard Representative.
MVP FAQ: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/4038704716#2
03/02/2013 11:29 PMPosted by Drothvader
I simply seek to help with the continual improvement.


I question this statement wholeheartedly. The threads I've read of yours if taken seriously by a developer would only sabotage FUN. From Best-in-slots requiring Bind-on-account to dynamic drop-rates that reward players the same no matter how efficient they are at killing speed. Drothvader, your ideas to "improve" this game sound like deliberate sabotage.

The scary part is, I think you honestly believe creating new bind-on-account items which have a higher stat range than all the items we've been farming for the past 10 months will help. Please understand that would do more harm than good.

03/02/2013 11:00 PMPosted by Drothvader
You have to look at the WHOLE picture, not just snapshots.


Please... Please take your own advice and use some foresight when you make your suggestions. Can you image all the rage players would have when suddenly a new tier of BOA's make their entire gear-set completely outclassed? Try to make suggestions that can benefit both veteran players and undergeared stragglers like yourself. Your suggestions are 100% biased towards helping players in your category.
Edited by Chillaxin#1429 on 3/3/2013 1:42 AM PST
Loot is a means to an end for me, a vehicle to get me to my end goal (Which as of now is clearing MP10 Inferno)I have way more fun just smashing monsters. Items just keep the lust for the kill alive for me.


For YOU and YOUR goals loot is just a means to the end.

But for me and a WHOLE LOT of veteran and current diablo game players "beating the game" on MP10 is NOT what a diablo game is all about.

THAT is why we are disappointed with this game and angry at the dev's!

Sadly the dev's under Jay Wilson and even some of the CM's dont seem to understand this. Or they know it and dont care!
02/28/2013 07:22 PMPosted by SmokeyBuddha
You start making easy ways for one person to find everything they need on their own and that becomes THE way to get items.


I liked some of your ideas but what is the problem with this? Why do pro-AH people have grudges against the people who refuse to use the AH and want the game to be more like Diablo 1 and no AH (neither Blizzard-ran nor 3rd party)? Why can't we just have a safer more social trade in town in game with players and NPCs. Why can't we have a much bigger world with large cities and larger fields/dungeons like an MMORPG? Why can't we have better drops so that people who don't wish to trade or buy/sell items can find their own and people who do wish to trade have better items to trade. I think it would be good to have less items if the items were more diverse and on average better (and had better/more interesting effects). I don't like how people say that people like me who refuse to use (the AH) are not playing the game how it is meant to be played. That's just a lie. The AH is a crutch. If I used it, it would be to buy farming gear, use this gear to farm and sell items, use this gold to buy more items for testing out possible builds. Same thing I'd do on my own but faster and less fun by the way. I don't like the grind because monsters seem too easy or too hard depending upon the MP level. I don't like the grind because there aren't enough unique types of items or legendary items to make the game interesting and good items just don't drop often enough.. combine this with boring skills/runes that mostly are based upon the strength of your items' damages and stat.s.. it just gets boring.. The AH just exacerbates all these problems.. It forces them to use a horrible drop system that drops tons of random, mostly useless gear.. Eh, I don't know, there's just so much poor design in this game.. Games are supposed to be fun.. not random.. not pay-to-win.. They're not supposed to be too hard unless you buy items then too easy.. : /
My and others ideas:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7909211228?page=1
Edited by StiMMarine#1484 on 3/3/2013 2:57 AM PST
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