Diablo® III

how do you survive reflects with no LS tankin

Hi all. I've been an avid Life steal user since the day D3 launched.

I've been thinking of converting to a double socket manticore because all that dps is SO tempting but I can't imagine being able to tank anything without LS. I've tried a friend's bow paired with 1100 LOH amulet and still got my !@# kicked by RD elite. I should probably mention that I am non-kiting DH for max dps output.

Is the only option to perma gloom with nightstalker or kite?

i don't want to spend half a bil to find out =)
Edited by Gracestyle#1994 on 3/5/2013 8:18 AM PST
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LOH is poor in high levels with a few exceptions. If you're using Manti, however, you really do need to rely on life steal, which comes with Gloom, so use it. Why are people so averse to this skill lately I don't understand... It's by far and wide one of the best defensive skills in this game, perhaps the best.
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The only option is to go gloom regadless of if you have a LL manticore or not. I do have one and I still need to pop it when it comes to reflect damage. The few percent are not enough to keep you up against the massive reflect you will receive.
The LL on your weapon is only good enough to refill you when fighting trash or certain elites. I have come to the conclusion that it's not really worth it the extra stats/socket you could get. When I am going to upgrade next time I will rely solely on gloom for heals.
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03/04/2013 10:36 AMPosted by Oscar
LOH is poor in high levels with a few exceptions. If you're using Manti, however, you really do need to rely on life steal, which comes with Gloom, so use it. Why are people so averse to this skill lately I don't understand... It's by far and wide one of the best defensive skills in this game, perhaps the best.


^this

i just started rolling with dh and when i found gloom i was like wtf is this, how can this skill be so op. Coming from a wiz where i need to either get very expensive ls weapons or have to stack a ton of loh on several pieces + the damage mods so equallly expensive.

wizs ls rune is 10x less ls and no 35% damage reduction. I cant understand why anybody wouldnt use it.
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I went from a top 1 socket LS manticore to a 2 socket manticore with no LS. I was reluctant at first, but now I'm glad I made the change. The main thing to get used to, is you really need to be on top of your gloom. Without lifesteal on your weapon, there is less margin for error. Now, with the change to reflective mobs, it's a lot easier to deal with. But you still need to pay attention and keep your gloom up at the right times.

As far as playing without gloom... I simply don't see how anyone could do it. I can't imagine a single build without it. There are too many reflect mobs in the game, and if you ever want to run an uber, you have no choice but to gloom for seige. Unless you want to be 1/2 worthless for that one battle.

With gloom and a 2 socket manticore you are going to be doing MUCH more damage. And the more damage you do, the more life you get back. Even if I get down to a fraction of health... One shot with gloom up and I'm back to full health (two shots max).

Anyway, I know your concern about going from LS to No LS.. But think of it like this... 30k more damage @ 15% lifesteal is better than 17.7% lifesteal.

We'll use simple numbers.

Say you are currently critting for 100k with 2.7% lifesteal + gloom 15% = 17.7% would be a heal of 17,700

With the new Manticore, say you crit for 30% more. Your crits are now at 130k with no life steal, and only 15% gloom. That would be a heal for 19,500

So not only are you doing WAY more damage, but you are healing yourself for WAY more by going with the stronger weapon (even though it doesn't have lifesteal)

So make the switch today. You don't need lifesteal on your weapon if you have gloom. You just need more power for bigger heals.
Edited by DonnyCage#1757 on 3/4/2013 11:34 AM PST
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Don't forgot LS is actually like 20 or 30% of total in inferno. So your 15% is actually like 3-5%. Even the Damage reduction is nerfed in inferno. I crit for 10's of millions with my Sever build, health is almost always full.
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03/04/2013 10:36 AMPosted by Oscar
LOH is poor in high levels with a few exceptions. If you're using Manti, however, you really do need to rely on life steal, which comes with Gloom, so use it. Why are people so averse to this skill lately I don't understand... It's by far and wide one of the best defensive skills in this game, perhaps the best.


Spot On ! I don't know why I hesitated as long as I did on Gloom. It's a must have against the reflectors. I went from dying every time I encountered them to never. Use the gloom and it will save yer butt.
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Sentry doesnt reflect damage back onto you. I drop 3 of them, with custom engineering, and they make reflect mobs a joke :D
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Is the only option to perma gloom with nightstalker
no, this is just a very strong option

There are tons of tools being familiar will help you solve this issue; handling it (without stopping) is controlled asymptotically by 3 variables

a) damage output (10% returned)
b) mitigation (armor and all resistance)
c) recuperation (regen/ls/Loh)

You don't need gloom since shadowPower runes all come with considerable leech (1/5 in inferno); however in high MP gloom is pretty much a necessary clutch survival buff

much is self explanatory

A
slow on your attack
Have a backup skill like NT
something with better procs if you use LoH

B
more armor/resistance (enchantress, perfectionist, boar, guardian sentry
numbing traps i presume does nothing (have not tried to test that)

C
more regen/ls/LoH

using all three in conjunction multiplies rapidly, so don't try to focus on one when improvement all over works better
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As a not-so-minor point, don't forget the 80% penalty on LL in Inferno. . . .

As a side note, that penalty does NOT apply to LOH. Of course, the downside is that LOH is a fixed amount per monster hit, and doesn't scale with crits.

We'll use simple numbers.

Say you are currently critting for 100k with 2.7% lifesteal + gloom 15% = 17.7% would be a heal of 17,700

With the new Manticore, say you crit for 30% more. Your crits are now at 130k with no life steal, and only 15% gloom. That would be a heal for 19,500

So not only are you doing WAY more damage, but you are healing yourself for WAY more by going with the stronger weapon (even though it doesn't have lifesteal)

So make the switch today. You don't need lifesteal on your weapon if you have gloom. You just need more power for bigger heals.
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I don't use gloom or any shadow power most of the time. I just kite RD packs with impale / caltrops and heal it off. Use Bola / Cluster arrow when the opportunity arises. For higher MP's using Maelstrom so I don't blow myself up on RD packs is another option. You could also you Bounty hunter which makes RD packs a faceroll.
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@Donnycage or anyother face tankers.

Hey so I forgot to mention that I'm more a facetank build and I never kite. I see that you don't have vault on either so hoping that you are also more of a tanky build and asking you this question.

So I can solo tank mp 9 no problem and still tank an elite at mp 10 in group with LS and Gloom.

My concern is that
1. if i have massive mob surrounding me, with my slow bola/spike can I still facetank without LS with only gloom.

2. my spike crits at 1500K. That reflects back pretty damn hard and if I forget my gloom, it's a one shotter reflect. Does it still work without LS?
Edited by Gracestyle#1994 on 3/5/2013 8:17 AM PST
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If your spike crits at 1500k then running Blood Moon would give you 25% (5% in inferno), therefore 75k life back. Also Gloom gives you 45k back but also has damage reduction. This results in only 1m of the damage reflected.
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@Donnycage or anyother face tankers.

Hey so I forgot to mention that I'm more a facetank build and I never kite. I see that you don't have vault on either so hoping that you are also more of a tanky build and asking you this question.

So I can solo tank mp 9 no problem and still tank an elite at mp 10 in group with LS and Gloom.

My concern is that
1. if i have massive mob surrounding me, with my slow bola/spike can I still facetank without LS with only gloom.

2. my spike crits at 1500K. That reflects back pretty damn hard and if I forget my gloom, it's a one shotter reflect. Does it still work without LS?


How do you facetank? Seriously? I can comfortably do mp5 and I believe I outgear you, although it's no doubt close... I ask because I was expecting to see sick gear and yours is not doubt good, but you're using strongarms and a non-crit mempo. I don't get it. Am I using the wrong skills or something? Anything over mp5 and I start having trouble solo...
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@Rimripper

Yes, your skills are not optimal for higher MP. Unless really high dps, BL becomes less and less useful.

Suggestion, why use archery when it only gives you 50 CD when you can use Steady Aim that gives you 20% more damage to everything farther than 10 yds. Higher mp skills you need ones that hit for their full damage every time. Ball Lightning hits for 77.5% per tick, but the higher the MP the less chance you have to hit on both ticks.
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03/05/2013 09:10 AMPosted by Rimripper
I don't get it. Am I using the wrong skills or something?
try Bola + spike traps (scatter or echo)


1. if i have massive mob surrounding me, with my slow bola/spike can I still facetank without LS with only gloom.
gloom is 15% vs your 2.7% - you won't notice it gone, it contributed 1/6 of your leech

if you are at a razor thin margins for perma-gloom, addition of weapon leech may help pad out its need; But then again ~5% more crit chance or ~10% ias would compensate you with more disc
So in that case, go with the ones that add DPS; killing two birds with 1 stone


2. my spike crits at 1500K. That reflects back pretty damn hard and if I forget my gloom, it's a one shotter reflect. Does it still work without LS?

by default gloom mitigates reflection, no matter how much damage (provided you have more than 2500 armor and 250 resistance); when it is off you are in serious trouble

You'd need some gear numbers more like 5000 armor, 600 all resistance and 4-5% leech to cast off gloom and not care much about reflection

try to never place spikes without gloom on against refection pack unless you are dead certain on the RD buff timer. Spike traps 'snap shot' leech% on deployment (not on detonation)
if you place them, and then activate gloom you will not get the leech and can self jib yourself for sure

pool hatred and as gloom is about to expire then drop spike traps at the last 1/2 second
1.2 seconds later they will still detonate and leech, allowing you about 1 second of non-gloom time but still getting LS - it is for that reason I prefere echos. You can place about 2 of em at the last second and they provide a ton of leech for over 3.2 seconds while you continue to use bola for hatred the damage won't hurt much since the echos are recovering so much for you,
in that case you don't need perma gloom, more like 75% uptime if discipline is a bit light
Edited by zoid#1554 on 3/5/2013 9:55 AM PST
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Hey Ripper. I didn't check your gears but I do 80K more DPS so maybe I kill faster and hence less damage taken per mob? Also, ball of lighting is only good for speed killing at low MP.

If you are in doubt, I can carry you in MP8 =)
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My Life Steal 2OS Manticore is the best thing I've ever spent my gold on.
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Hey Ripper. I didn't check your gears but I do 80K more DPS so maybe I kill faster and hence less damage taken per mob? Also, ball of lighting is only good for speed killing at low MP.

If you are in doubt, I can carry you in MP8 =)


Ok Grace, I'm not gonna fight with you. You are using ss though, what's up with that? Also, my question regarding tanking wasn't so much your damage as it was your lack of resists. I can stick a purple in my helm and get to 50k vit and my resists are in the high 400's and in the mid 500's if I add whatever that passive is.

Maybe I'll go try that and see if I can run some 8...
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