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Also, same goes for Brawler....I never really investigated any of this information, just kind of went with what I thought worked best.
That being said, I´m a pretty good researcher hmm... :)
Berserker Rage tests:
- "activate" means how many frames it took from the moment your fury globe aws maxed out until the passive activated
- "lose" means how many frames it took from the moment your globe dropped from full fury
activate 27-10-07-00-02-06-22 frames
lose 18-35-44-17-38-29-35 frames
Note that each value above is a separate test. Afterwards I made some simpler tests with Rend.
22 activate -> 190 at full -> 35 lose
15 activate -> 11 at full -> 34 lose
05 activate -> 07 at full -> 38 lose
To me, it seems as if the game checks each 45 frames after activation whether your fury globe is maxed out. Not sure when exactly this timer is activated the first time and whether it is reset on each activation (EDIT: the 45 frame timer starts at the very first Berserker Rage activation). The subsequent bonuses don´t activate right when you hit max fury, instead there´s a periodicall "check if max fury" mechanics even for the activation.
It is possible to activate the bonus the same frame you get to max fury as one of my tests showed.
The ability to keep up the bonus is quite random for WW because of the fast fury loss/gain alternation. Basically you need the ITF rolls before or on the same frame as the game checks if actual fury = max fury. As you know WW damage tick has a corresponding fury globe tick.
For example you have 2.51 aps = 7 frames per WW tick. You´re WWing and Berserker Rage activates (f0), let´s say your first tick happens on f1 -> f8 -> f15 -> f22 -> f29 -> f36 -> f43 -> (f45) check -> f50 so in this scenario you´d need your ITF activation on f43 or RLTW ITF activation on f43-45 and these fury gains would have to put you to max fury.
Now add the cases when you lose fury from Rend and Sprint and you get quite a messy fury gain/loss sequence.
So for berserker rage to be up, you´d have to modify your playstyle and don´t spam Battle Rage and Sprint so much (it´s pretty easy to keep up WotB in high MP even without spamming those skills). i guess higher attack speed giving more ITF rolls is preferable. I´d say this is still a solid option over Brawler, mainly against elite packs because:
- minions die very fast and afterwards you won´t activate the Brawler bonus anymore
- champion packs don´t always stick together (depending on monster type) and as soon as 1 dies you won´t activate the Brawler bonus anymore. As for Brawler mechanics, I´d imagine it follows a similar pattern (it´ll be more difficult to test, though).
HotA users (with a primary skill), you´re basically always at max Fury when you want to, it should be very easy to keep up the bonus as Det0x showed in his videos.
Edited by Nubtro#2147 on 3/3/2013 4:27 AM PST
Great vid....and that's a pretty set-up you have there....also, I don't think that Juzam guy is going to post a video in here....that's alright though, probably better off that way.
Making me eat some humble pie....
Wow, thanks for the info....if Brawler works on the same mechanics, that being check for 3 enemies close range every 45 frames then a yes/no answer to that I would imagine it would proc less than Berzerker Rage by quite a bit with WW. After all, how many times are you standing next to 3 enemies long enough to gain the bonus? Not to mention if you are constantly moving you could easily miss one of the chances for it to proc just by passing over the required 3 enemies in between the checking phase of the buff.
I guess I will hold judgement until all the results are in, but for now Berzerker Rage looks promising for both builds, no?
Edited by Wayneold#1685 on 3/3/2013 6:59 AM PST
Thanks for taking a closer look at this. You are the man with the research plan for sure :). I took another look at a couple of my own videos and was surprized how often I was fury capped. I'm going to try and see if I can get some numbers together as far as uptime with Brawler vs. Berserker Rage. I measure everything in terms of damage to elites and you are absolutely right about Brawler being essentially useless in the second half of most yellow champ fights when hes all thats left.
I am certainly not at this gear level yet but at what point, if there is one, do you think you might consider dropping Weapon Mastery or Ruthlessness for taking BOTH Bersker Rage and Brawler?
Kind words brother, thanks, my gear is coming along, trying to stash more gold away. I really want to save up and get an Ice Climbers with move speed and keep my Tyrael's for max move speed freeing up my bracer slot for a crafted one. With crafted gear I think a good Tyrael's might push out the IK Chest for BiS given an unlimited budget, if max TDPS vs. Elites is your goal. Where would you go from here if you were in my shoes?
Yes, OP killing spree, and as far as the third passive, I was using Brawler....but it looks like that may give way to Berzerker Rage pending ongoing testing reflected in this thread.
I have never been sold on Tyreal's Might.....I think you would be better off with move speed Ice Climbers and a crafted chest.....but without experience with the new crafted items, perhaps I am no longer a good resource for gearing information.
Not quite sure I know what MTG is....
Well if his 7 minute kill time on ONE set of ubers he posted in the Hall thread is anything to judge by I wouldn't exactly hold my breath waiting for him to show his face in here :P
@ Wayneold, LOL here's JuzamDjinn's submission in the Hall thread:
He posted that like it was supposed to silence anyone that doubted his ability. At 7 mins to clear one set and several close calls, all he definitively proved was that he was full of crap. Anyway lets keep this thread moving along as I'm sure it will be a very long time before he shows his face in here again.
@ Wayneold, LOL here's JuzamDjinn's submission in the Hall thread:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hco4XQKrzw
I'll be honest, I am kind of disappointed that he hasn't shown up and proven me wrong yet. When acrimony and I had our famous first blow-up it was because I was told by several people that there was no way I could do what I claimed I could....then I took video, and it took a while, but people started to accept that it could be done.
I was kind of hoping that this guy had it all figured out and had just fallen through the cracks somehow....but, alas....seems he was just another troll....ahh well.
I saw you repost some of your old videos the other day and I looked at them...I still can hardly believe my eyes when I watch them.
You and Death are right, 1.42 aps unbuffed (which gives 4.62 tps buffed) is enough for perma-wrath with dtww, it just takes some care.
Now I'm trying to decide what other two skills I should use are. There are videos out for very fast MP10 kills with every combination of rend, OP:KS, and HotA...and I love all 3...
My guess is that rend+OP:KS is strictly speaking the best combo for experience, loot, essences, etc., but HotA is just too fun to drop.
Make it 1.43 aps for then you´re out of WotB, it happens you know...
I´m still undecided abour what Skorn to eventually run:
- 500+str with vit
- WW bonus (heh)
Leaning towards LS as it simply makes your life easier and gives you the most gearing options.
Here´s a little chart I made. Obviously some base aps values include the Enchantress, it´s for complexity sake, I´d rather use the +3% crit chance from the Scoundrel that is up no matter if he lives or not (doesn´t apply to the Enchantress for whatever reason). The values in brackets () are numbers of gear slots needed to achieve the breakpoints.
SKORN 1.67 aps 1.82 aps 2.01 aps
1.00 aps +42%(5) +57%(7) +76%(9)
1.03 aps +37%(5) +52%(6) +70%(8)
1.05 aps +34%(4) +49%(6) +66%(8)
1.06 aps +33%(4) +47%(6) +64%(8)
1.07 aps +31%(4) +45%(5) +62%(7)
1.08 aps +30%(4) +44%(5) +61%(7)
1.09 aps +28%(4) +42%(5) +59%(7)
1.10 aps +27%(3) +41%(5) +57%(7)
1.11 aps +26%(3) +39%(5) +56%(7)
1.12 aps +24%(3) +38%(5) +54%(6)
1.13 aps +23%(3) +36%(4) +52%(6)
1.14 aps +22%(3) +35%(4) +51%(6)
...and the gear choices/skills I´ve been testing for WW/RLTW/OPKS/Rend.
LifeSteal Belt Passive Rend total LS Result
0% WH BerserkerRage Blood Lust 0+9% doesn´t work
0% IKTB BerserkerRage Lacerate 3+0% doesn´t work
0% WH Bloodthirst Lacerate 3+0% doesn´t work
0% WH Bloodthirst Blood Lust 3+9% solid
0% IKTB Bloodthrist Lacerate 6+0% good
5% WH BerkerkerRage Lacerate 5+0% ???
5% WH BerserkerRage Blood Lust 5+9% ???
As you can see in my profile, I´m far from top geared but still run MP10 VotA relatively fast. The resists are pretty low (around 420) but having almost 400K buffed displayed damage and running 4 damaging skills makes up for it. I´d eventually like to go all out offense with Lacerate and Berserker Rage but I´m not sure if I can survive certain affix combos without Blood Lust. Yeah reflect is nerfed but it still takes a while before it wears off and with this kind of sick damage output (doesn´t compare to dwt0x´s 800K+ lol of course), it´s hurting like hell, on top of things like the new plagued and also electrified...but at least it´s a bit fun if you can die.
I'll probably have to wait till the next PTR to see what I can do to compete with these videos. With my current cheapo gear from the gold that just won't sell on the RMAH I'm just practicing optimizing skipping elites KD2 runs. So far on MP9 I'm going at slightly above 6500 kills/hr from learning the map better. Still need to memorize optimal pathing and decision making for the 4 exit pieces and immediately recognizing which dead end pieces I should run. It'll be a while before I can pull off anything close on MP10 though and elites just don't gel well with my 1.18 APS.
PS Is it just me or is there always a bit of animosity between players going on when I check the official forums.
Only when trolls start trying make BS claims and then don't have balls (more exactly skill and gear) to cash the checks their mouths are writing.
Edited by Death#1408 on 3/3/2013 3:30 PM PST
I use berserker rage for HotA vs ubers, as you'll pretty much recover your fury on 80% of your hits given that your crit/fury/hota reduction meet the minimum thresholds. I even go with war cry to help keep fury full should into the fray not proc.
Interesting that you're finding it effective for WW as well. Personally I don't spend much time at max fury for that build so I go with brawler there instead. How well are people able to optimize their skill casts to coincide with brawler (e.g. waiting until the barb is inside the brawler range + any activation time before casting overpower or rend).
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