Diablo® III

Question about Rend/WW/Sprint Barbarian

What APS breakpoint should a Rend/WW barb be aiming for? Is more attack speed good for dps, or should I stick to 1.09 aps for keeping fury when whirlwinding?

Thanks
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1.09aps? Can it even go so low....

You need to get over the 2.23 BP I believe for a skorn user in order to maintain WOTB.
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1.09aps? Can it even go so low....

You need to get over the 2.23 BP I believe for a skorn user in order to maintain WOTB.


Not at all....it can go much lower....

Act 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ik9KrMQELeI&feature=youtu.be

Act 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqxK5iUITGk&feature=youtu.be

In both of these I was at 1.42 APS unbuffed and I felt like I could have gone lower.

In fact, Meow, are you able to keep WoTB going permanently with your current gear? If so, what MP level?
Edited by Wayneold#1685 on 3/6/2013 7:37 AM PST
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In fact, Meow, are you able to keep WoTB going permanently with your current gear? If so, what MP level?


At the lower MP I actually have come trouble keeping WoTB going because I don't get enough ticks from the tornadoes before the enemies die. But at higher MPs (ie MP7 and above) I can keep it up provided there isn't too much space between groups. Where I start to lose it is on small groups or single target.

Edit: At MP10 my dps isn't high enough to make it worth it to run. And the fallen maniacs totally destroy me.
Edited by Meowingtons#1458 on 3/6/2013 8:24 AM PST
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You've got Wayne to Wayne-in on your question. (No pun intended)

I'd say your APS is abysmal and you need to greatly improve it in order to succeed with WOTB.
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If you want to truly be able to hold wrath and spin around a single mob, then you need to hit the 6 tps breakpoint buffed, which requires 57% IAS with a non-ias Skorn. 42% as Wayneold rolled with, is the minimum for the next breakpoint down, 5.45 tps, and is enough to hold perma-wrath pretty comfortably in almost all situations. If you're careful enough about herding mobs together, etc, I'm sure you could get by with lower, but it'll be clunkier and clunkier the lower you get, and your actual DPS will get lower and lower as well. There's a distinction between what's possible and what's optimal, and strictly speaking, even 42% isn't optimal, it's just that it's usually hard enough to even get there without sacrificing tons of survivability, let alone 57%, which requires 7 slots of IAS and is guaranteed to cost you a fortune to incorporate in a well-balanced set.

Perhaps you switched your gear since writing the original post, but I see your unbuffed aps sitting at 1.33 with what you have on now, which is a decent start. I didn't really attempt to use ww at that breakpoint, because the smoothness wasn't there for me. Someone with (much) more experience with dtww like Wayneold could probably make it work without dropping wrath. For me, it was more trouble than it was worth. It's the type of thing where it depends on how much you're willing to tolerate. I'd suggest picking up another 9% IAS as soon as you can, though, to bring you to the next breakpoint. It'll make a huge difference. You have plenty of room for it between your gloves, amulet and right ring.
Edited by silverfire#1855 on 3/6/2013 9:37 AM PST
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I actually would like to see what the slowest APS I could do to keep perma-wrath on.....it seems to be a point of some debate with people saying:

"You can't keep perma-wrath under ____ APS"

I haven't used a lot of slow 2 handed weapons besides Skorn in the PTR....but I am still yet to hit a point where I can't perma-wrath....I wonder what the break-off point is....
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The only truly objective measure for when you "can't" is the worst-case scenario, when you have a single mob that has no ground effects and isn't doing any damage to you. In that situation, I guarantee that even 42% IAS won't cut it.

Of course, that situation pretty much never happens in reality, and if you play smartly you can keep generating fury even if your gear isn't well suited for it. That doesn't make stacking IAS any less important for Skorn builds, though. It's critical and one should still aim to hit the highest breakpoint possible.
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03/06/2013 09:57 AMPosted by silverfire
The only truly objective measure for when you "can't" is the worst-case scenario, when you have a single mob that has no ground effects and isn't doing any damage to you. In that situation, I guarantee that even 42% IAS won't cut it.


:(

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqxK5iUITGk&feature=youtu.be

6:20 of this vid I fight a skeleton bowman (small hitbox) waller with no ground effects and my Wrath timer actually regains instead of depletes....I guarantee it will cut it.
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It had electrified. I know I'm sounding nit-picky, but it helps tons with fury generation, and it's the only (as far as I know) affix that mobs can cast even while being frozen. Don't get me wrong, it'd take a really contrived example to have it not work, but such situations do exist in the game, even if it's just .0001% of the time. You tend to have a harder time when you run with a high-end CM wizard and stuff gets turned to statues.

Maybe I should try to make a video of myself dropping it, and have you point out what I did wrong...though tbh, I don't think I ever have with 1.42 as long as there was something around to fight. I think 1.42 is solid, but I wouldn't want to go lower, and I'd still want to go for 1.57 if I could.

I think it's about time you re-login and build yourself a skorn ww barb, you know you want to. :)
Edited by silverfire#1855 on 3/6/2013 10:46 AM PST
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03/06/2013 10:44 AMPosted by silverfire
I think it's about time you re-login and build yourself a skorn ww barb, you know you want to. :)


Can't say I haven't thought about it....actually I'm snowed in today....so the temptation is there.
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WW with below 1.42 unbuff aps is pretty bad. My thread here gives a detailed list of what BP you should aim for to make WW a complete faceroll experience in all situations: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7199962320?page=1

In all cases, your TPS (ticks per second) needed to maintain wrath depends on your passive selection, buffed CC, how well you place tornadoes, and latency.

For a single 'fat' target, like Azmodan, you can place 4-5 tornadoes out per cast of sprint. You need to be above these TPS values for perma-Wotb:

(4.5 tornadoes hitting each second)
55% cc - 6.2
65% cc - 5.2
75% cc - 4.5

These numbers above are your minimums to make the spec work 'good enough' on trash.

For a typical single elite, maintaining 3.5 tornadoes on the target is doable. In these cases you need:

(3.5 tornadoes hitting each second)
55% cc - 7.4
65% cc - 6.3
70% cc - 5.8
75% cc - 5.4

For the worst elites that move around a lot and scatter, 2.5 tornadoes is about typical. The requirements go up again:

(2.5 tornadoes hitting each second)
55% cc - 9.2
65% cc - 7.8
75% cc - 6.7

To factor in animosity, divide the above numbers by 1.2 to get the required TPS. Most WW barbs using killing spree will have ~75% cc fully buffed. Use of cold SOJ will turn the 'worst elites' into a 'typical elite' and 'typical elite' into Azmodan. So, users of cold SOJ should ignore the last recommended tps values and aim for the set above. There's nothing wrong with getting even higher tick rates, but it's unnecessary for making the spec work.

Now, these number above are 'conservative' in that they do not include fury from damage taken or maximizing the fury you get from overpower (i.e. only casting it when your fury is low inside a dense group). However, they also do not include the effects of latency, which can substantially reduce fury generation. So if your latency and skill with the build are very good, you can get by with less than these values.

For most of us, you need to hit 6.7 tps with 75% buffed CC to make the spec very smooth in virtually every situation.

1.00 aps skorn hits 6.0 tps with 57% ias.
1.10 aps skorn hits 6.0 tps with 41% ias.
Edited by Jim#1333 on 3/6/2013 6:12 PM PST
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Gotten myself an IAS skorn. Tested 2-hand ww build. Before buff with enchantress is 1.49 aps. I am doing okay at MP7. I move up to MP 8. I can still perma berserk. I can bash (instigation) a single mob while sprint and battle rage to reduce wrath cool down. But it is not as fast compare to dual wield.

Plug the new setup into calculator. I am actually lower my tdps from 1.96m to about 1.8m using a skorn. I need another 5 IAS to bump to next breakpoint with skorn, that will bump the tdps to 2.15m. I do not foresee that happening soon unless I manage to craft trifecta gloves. On the side note, craft 250 gloves yesterday. Non better than the one I am wearing.
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