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(had a detailed post that got eaten! now you'll get the short version)
I'm not sure what you armor is....your profile said 5656 but d3up says 4713...and i think that later is correct. Whichever, you need to get to about 4500 armor and 700 all res to be more balanced. since you don't have much armor and all res on your chest and pants you'll have to add it elsewhere. Your rings definitely could both use 65+ ar. I'd also use an All res tals chest.....as close to or more than 800 armor would be great. Then maybe you could drop the armor on your ammy inexchange for all res. Also,. your Taskers could use 100+ VIT or INT (less than 10M). I'd also be tempted to drop INT/VIT from your Lacunis in favor of All Res. Your boots can also have armor...means you might have to drop some INT to do this.
Losing INT (i.e. DPS) will kinda suck, but I think with 700/4500 you will be more robust, won't have to kite as much, won't die as much, and be more survivable in general. You'll then be more efficient in your runs....even with a little less DPS.
Edited by PieHole#1628 on 3/30/2013 12:31 PM PDT
usually ping is the culpret. I run with ~110 ping and can feel the difference between 2.73 and 3.01. I've never done a gohm test at 3.01 though. You are correct, in that the samage multiplier actually decreases some (the amount is debated, and probably tied to ping) as you go up in breakpoints. The main advantage in 3.01 is not in the damage multiplier but in the LoH return and freeze lock. Since you have a better lock, enemies get less attacks off, you can do with a little less damage mitigation as well as LoH.
But, if you lock is worse...that is very odd. Has to be ping related.
You might want to keep an eye out for a 250 LoH ring (which would get you to 800 with your "precious"). 1000+ with your pants is way too much. Or get pants with only 350 LoH and jacked up armor and all res (well, you're are already jacked up...nevermind!) You'd be a cahdidate for inna's pants if you could displace the other stats...like you already suggested. You could also think about rare pants (70+AR/70 armor/150 VIT/150 INT/2OS.....that might rock....(if you got 250 LoH on a ring)).
Edited by PieHole#1628 on 3/30/2013 12:32 PM PDT
Thanks for the tips, will try to follow this
The correct armor is around 4700, it was higher on profile 'cause I probably logged off with the armor buff from warcry :P
Yes, very help me and thanks so much Pie :-)
for this moment the best skill i used CM/Cool blood/ blur
sometime i used my storm crown to get 30 APOC when used bone chill coz 30 APOC very help for single target like gohm or azmadon. I still try get 250+kdps but not lose CC, AR and Armor... can u advice for my wizrd to get 250+kdps, 700+AR, 4500 +Armor, 800+ LOH and 60+cc ( the best CC for CM wizrd, it just base my experiment)
nb. i ever try 250+kdps but lose my cc, ar and armor.. very bad for my wizrd :-(
I just found this thread and it's very helpful. I hoping you can provide guidance on my build. It's reach its potential. MP5 is fine and survivable up to MP7. My next purchases will be Chanto's Will/Force and the Witching Hour. Chanto's Will will be in the 1.75as - 1.77 range to save money for other gear. After those 3, I'm not sure what direction to take. Your videos suggest I should concentrate on all resist.
Thanks in advance for any help.
I think you will see a big difference when you switch out from dagger/Trium to Chant set! The difference in attack speed and freezing and LoH returns and all that will be SO much better. You can make it work with dagger/trium, its just that it takes a special setup (Life Steel dagger at 250K DPS) to make it work. Chant set is so much easier for starters.
The videos are by boozer and, along with a large segment of the community (led by Aimless) advocate EHP over DPS. That means lots of AR and Armor (while keeping life between 35 and 40k) and not worrying about DPS as much. The max DPS for a SNS wiz occurs after the ~2-3 sec windup...when all twisters are out and your are spamming EB and DS and all that....as soon as you have to move, and kite, and move from desicrator or plagued, or move to avoid an arcane beam or two....you start to drop twisters, fewer EB's go off....i.e. you lost your full DPS potential. If you have mega EHP, then you can keep spamming all your abilities through the worst affixes. Thus, lower DPS/high EHP will lead to a much more efficient SNS wiz....even though you're not going to epeen your DPS. Dead = 0 DPS, as aimless likes to say.
He's the king of EHP....and his low 200K DPS will be more efficient than most wizards with 300 or more DPS. He just doesn't die, or kite, or anything.
Your goals initially should be 700AR and 4500 Armor. You've done a good job with armor really (though losing your BT belt will really hurt that)....just try to add in AR while keeping your armor up. And track your EHP changes at d3up.com - its the most reliable to use.
At any rate,...yeah...WH with 65+ AR and, hopefully, 40+ CD. Since you're not doing a 1.78/9 wand, then an 8 IAS one will do (as long as you hit your breakpoint...2.73?)
Just to nitpick your nats set a bit, I'd look for similar boots with 600+ armor and high 70's AR....drop INT down to 80 or 90 to do this. Same for ring, look for 60 or 65 AR, and drop INT down in order to do this.
You're bracers aren't bad, (and are a good place to craft, if you're interested in that) but ones with 65+ AR would be a little better. Something like: 65AR, 5CC, 75 INT, VIT, Armor (or STR).
VW: good work there. Nice balance of STR+Armor and INT and VIT
Pants: could really go 60+AR and 600+Armor. Stacking VIT there is also popular, like 250 VIT/ 40 AR or 250 VIT/700 AR (whatever your AR and armor needs are). This allows you to drop VIT from most of your other items since it is concentrated here.
Left rings ought to be, like: 50+AR, CC, AS....then whatever else you need (INT, CD, VIT, etc)
Helm: eventually when you get your AR up you can switch to a CC version...that will really help. But keep the AR one for now as you make changes.
Chest: pretty solid, really. Sure AR and armor could be higher...but you're on the right track here.
Good luck...! Feel free to post here again if you have any follow up questions.
Well, managed to raise DPS (147k), resists (630) and kept my armor at around 4700. EHP went from 280ish to 328k.
Still looking for replacements so I can reach 700 RES but I'm kinda short on money at the moment (and by short I mean broke lol)
Lol....broke. Yep, this build does that.
Great job on EHP....+50k has got to feel great! Of course, that just means you bump up the MP and you're right back to feeling glassy, lol.
Now you're really in a bad place gear wise. Solid EHP, DPS, Armor, AR (well, still kinda low...700 would be better (lacunis)), CC. Upgrades are going to be pricy! I always say that you can sacrifice some CC as long as you stay above 50, but psychologically its hard to do ;-) But...you can. Those rings at 6CC just really are budget busters....as are the 9.5 gloves and ammy.
Greetings Nephalem Pie!
Thanks for the really thorough guide AND taking so much time to answer everyone's questions at great length! Great read!
I've just hit 60 w/ Wiz and I've built a "budget" wiz (~10 mil although stole some gear from my WD so probably actually ~15 mil)
CC: 44.5% on gear (49.5% char sheet)
EHP: 231827 (eh...)
IAS: 5 slots (a few IAS pts over but originally planning to go 9/9/9/8/8 and panned out all 9's)
Paper DPS (vs Elites): 152634
(DPS calc fully buffed w/ Cold Blood + FN Bone Chill)
*note APS @ 2.5375 so DPS may be inflated
I have a lot of newbie questions about CM/WW wiz in general, SNS build, and overall gear choices! I hope you can clarify some points for me! Ty in advance!
1. In the beginning of your guide,
Are these values (like armor/AR/CC) character values? or ON GEAR values?
2. General Wizard class/Wiz mechanics question...
I don't know how to put this in a way that doesn't come off as all wizards are terrible gearers (which is not at all what I mean by this statement), but I am a bit confused as to why all the sticky threads I've read have a recommended 35k HP pool and advocate stacking really high flat mitigation (including this thread).
I haven't gotten a lot of play time w/ CM/WW wiz but just looking at such a low HP pool makes me feel... glassy. I'm used to gearing a barb where ideal HP pool is 50k and my current EHP is maybe 500k-600k+. Why don't most higher end Wiz or Wiz's pushing high MP stack more Vit/Life % and instead continually stack EVEN MORE AR. Is it just me, or does stacking AR/armor beyond 65%-68% mitigation see severe diminishing returns? (and therefore experience gear cost and gear slot inefficiencies?) With such high flat mitigation, aren't EHP values a bit "inflated" since in calculation they act as "multipliers" but in truth true HP pool (1:1) is the true indicator if you are dead or alive?
I guess I'm just really confused, since Int classes inherently have high AR,and wiz's have sooooo many defensive and flat mitigation skills + passive skill options, as to why top end Wiz's continue to stack such high AR over true HP?
ex. for my wiz
+1 Strength: 31.8
+1 Dexterity: 72.47
+1 Intelligence: 21.69
+1 Vitality: 231.12
+1 Armor: 31.8
+1 Resist All: 216.87
+1 Life Bonus %:1842.39
*Note 1: It occurred to me that the current CM/WW follows a flat LOH model for sustain rather than a LS model that scales off of DPS, so a flat life returned/second maybe a driving factor for getting every ounce of mitigation. However, I still don't understand the lopsidedness of mitigation:true HP in favor of a more "balanced" setup.
*Note 2: I have a very low understanding of class mechanics, so translating concepts of another class is probably not very accurate. (I can't imagine top end Wiz's who have studied the mechanics/gear choices doing things "wrong"). I just don't understand and would like some clarification...
3. Weapons Calc question:
Does the in game weapons APS still carry more points after decimal? It just so happens that my current Weap comes out perfectly even, but lets say
+ 8% IAS
Is the value used
1.4 * 1.08 + 0.22 = 1.732
or is the rounded displayed value of 1.73 used?
4. WW mechanics question:
More of a curiosity and true DPS related question...
How does WW BP mechanics work in relation to damage? (I couldn't find anything on this Shandlar's BP post). I vaguely remembered reading somewhere that the damage of a WW cast is flat no matter APS so BPs really are just dividing the damage up but giving more LOH/APoC procs. Correct?
So is the damage of the WW set per cast and evenly divided over the entire cast or is CC/CD applied per tick?
Ex. Normal WW does 100 damage with 10 ticks
CC = 20%
CD = 100%
(1) Cast WW -> has 20% of a crit WW ->
if CC -> 10,000 damage divided over 10 ticks -> 1000 dmg/tick ( and every tick counts as CC proc)
otherwise -> 100 damage divided over 10 ticks -> 10 dmg/tick
(2) Cast WW -> each tick does 10 damage
if CC -> tick does 1,000 damage -> that tick counts as a CC proc (Woot! arcane power!)
otherwise -> 10 dmg/tick -> that tick is a normal tick
4. Gear improvements
Budget: Let's say 50%-75% of gear so 6 - 10 mil?
(1) What should be my priorities? Upgrading defensive stats or pushing next BP? (Mostly a party/Uber Wiz and not a farm Wiz so I'm guessing dmg isn't as high of a priority?)
(2) What's my best slot to pick up armor on a budget?
(3) Do I need more LoH? (currently 769) If so, what slot?
(4) Unity (+dmg vs elite) or Rare Ring - CC/CD (where should I stack my LoH?)
(5) What MP lvl ubers should my Wiz handle/survive and run (as a utility not damage Wiz)?
(6) All other critiques greatly appreciated!!!!
Sorry for wall of text! Thanks for all the help and for the awesome guide!
TY! GL HF!
Edited by Cartographer#1273 on 4/1/2013 5:14 PM PDT
Oh! and what are good calculators for calculating true damage output? I've been using d3rawr but the DPS calc is pretty much the same as in game paper DPS for the Wiz class.
Also, are non-WW Crit SOJ's worth slotting? or is the CC loss too severe to make flat %vs Elite multiplier worthwhile?
Hello, i'm playing in EU.
I was an archon with 450k dps in town and 600 buffed, but mp9-10 is too slow in my opinion and i can't play with my friends so i tried to go CM.
First of all i went classic CM/WW with my archon sword with socket, cd and 3 LS. It was not too bad, only 2.1 aps but i managed stuff in KD2 away from my teammates (WD and Barb), and dps was 370 - not too bad. With 18 APoC.
But i decided to go tornado shards with chantodo, so i bought 1, my dps went down, but APS isn't 2.73, yeah. And even at that point i'm constanly out of arcane power - does more APS goes to more arcane power wastes?
Of course i will get more APoC on source, but... as I read - more APS - less APoC needed.
So the main question - how to get 2.73 APS, it's quite difficult for me, but if i need that - only 2 options left - change amulet or change zuni... so i don't know...
Edited by divinity#2228 on 4/2/2013 1:50 AM PDT
Wow....lots of good questions. We'll see how much I can help out.
1) These are values for what shows up on the screen and in the details tab. So, for CC, that includes the 5% that your character automatically comes with. At the All Res (or "AR") refers to the lowest value (though its nice to have +fire or +lightning, that's not what values are generally talked about. As you get more advanced gear, you won't find any of these affixes on gear anyways, because all the affixes are CC, CD, AR, INT, VIT, STR, etc. When you are first gearing, at a low budget, I found it very useful to have +fire on one item, +light on another, +cold on another, etc....to artificially increase my total AR numbers)
2) I'm not sure at what point you hit diminishing returns, but it seem (just from watching the discussions in the forums for the last year) that 5500 armor and 900 AR are possible...and some people go beyond that. And I don't think there are diminishing returns. Obviously, a good balance is best. If possible, favor AR over Armor. You can go to the calculators on d3up.com and find out how much EHP that 80 AR is worth....then how much armor you'd need for the same amount...and it usually takes armor on 2 pieces.....where as you can put 80 AR on one.
More to your question....CM/SNS wizards with 40k life....actually have ~50k....or ever 60k life actually! Diamond Skin can do two things. If you use the diamond shards rune it will add to your DPS. If you use the crystal shell rune it will add to your life. Everytime that diamond skin is refreshed it basically adds 10.8k to your life pool. If you use crystal shell it adds 21.7k to your life pool. Enemy damage is taken off of crystal shell before it is taken off of your life pool. It is important to either use CM and Evocation -or- have high CC so this is refreshed quickly.
The basic premise of the build for incoming damage is 1) mitigation 2) Diamond skin 3) health. You want to first reduce the amount of incoming damage with armor or AR (-elite reduction, etc). Whatever damage is left over gets taken away from Diamond Skin. If anything else is left over, then it come out of your actual health. Then, you have LoH to help refill this if necessary. It ends up (one again, discussions on the boards over the past year) that reducing damage through mitigation (AR and Armor) si that a smaller amount of damage hitting a small health pool (35-40k) is much better than a larger amount of damage hitting a larger health pool (50k+).Since Diamond Shards contributes the smallest amount of damage (compared to Explosive blast, WW, and Storm Armor) its the first rune to change - swap to crystal shell for the extra ~11k life...you'll see a huge difference in survivability.
As far as EHP goes, that value is largely influenced by VIT. Stack VIT, and you can have a ton of EHP...but we consider that "fake" EHP. If you want to do EHP comparisons with your gear, just be sure that you keep your health between 35-40k....and make AR and Armor (or STR) comparisons from that standpoint.
Another way that many people are now (and alot have in the past) using to follow mitigation is to look at "total damage reduction" on d3up.com (also referred to a %mit). The D3 details tab I think only calculates "armor" mitigation (the 65-68% you mention). D3up.com calculates it all. So, while EHP is influenced by VIT/%life/etc....%mit is not.
For you (on d3up.com)
EHP: 202k (not including dodge...no cheating! Sites like diabloprogress include dodge)
All very low considering that you only have 3200 armor and 600 resists (and are just starting out). Here's an example:
Say you get hit by a spear from a spearman every sec for 10 seconds...and diamond skin refreshes every second. Each spear is worth 100k damage and with your current setup (202k EHP), after your armor and AR, that leaves you with 17k damage (i.e. after 83% mitigation). Subtract off 11k for Diamond Skin, and that leaves you with 6k damage. You can currently take ~6 hits before you're dead. If you add a ton of VIT (400), that gives you ~50k health and 300k EHP, and you can take ~8 hits before you're dead. Either way, you're dead quickly.
Ex B) Same scenario but your armor is now 4700 and you have 750 AR with an EHP of only 284k (still only 33k life). Each spear hits for only 12k damage (i.e. after 88.1% mitigation). Subtract 11k for Diamond Skin and you only take 1k damge. It would take over 30 spears to kill you....but LoH kicks in and you could take hits all day long.
I'll take scenario B. Yeah, stacking mit is expensive, more expensive than VIT - but when you reduce the damage down to small amounts a low life pool (35k) is more than enough.
90% mit is considered the gold standard, and obviously tough to achieve. Consider is along with EHP.
LS and LoH is a whole other story. LoH works well because of the tick rate of the WW's. Each one "ticks" 36 times over 6 seconds at 2.73 attack speed and you can have 10-12 twisters going at one time at full windeup. Each tick from each twister generates LoH. Going up or down a breakpoint give you more or less ticks, and changes your LoH return. You can do LS, but its generally recommended only if your DPS is over 250k
3) do not round....do the math yourself. The game calculates out to the third decimal, but rounds in game. There are very few times where this matters...(depends on IAS and +AS)....but I was helping someone where it did...and he was only at 2.725 (not breakpoint) but the game rounded to 2.73. ouch.
4) Wow. I'm not gonna touch this question. There's an answer out there, and Loroese could probably explain it...but there's also alot that is not understood. I can say:
- IAS has little effect in between breakpoints other than adding DPS. Most people stay at, or just above breakpoints for gear/gold consideration.
- adding an extra 6-8 CC can make it "feel" like a higher breakpoint from the freezing perspective. Since you have more CC you proc CM more and FN refreshes and casts more quickly. A higher breakpoint with lower CC gets the same result because of the extra ticks.
- LoH, since its not affected by CC, only changes with the breakpoints. The LoH return increases by about 20% if you increase a breakpoint.
5 ) 1) if you're doing ubers you really want to be at the 2.73 breakpoint. I usually run at 3.01. You can use the cold snap rune of FN to simulate 3.01. If you're at 2.73 with 55CC that would be great. Also, like you said, favor mitigation over DPS, esp if you're in a group - your value is in locking down elites and/or ubers to make everyone else's job easier.
2/3/4) if you're not doing Tal's chest (with IAS), then really make Zuni chest worth it for EHP (or %mit!). I'd max it out at 750+ armor and 75+ AR. Then, prioritize VIT over INT for the other two stats. You really should have BT pants (which have LoH...shoot for 800 total) with as much AR and Armor as you can afford (40AR/750armor or 60AR/600armor - check EHP or %mit to make your decision. balance is usually good...and cost effective). With your current Chant Will, you're going to need 7 IAS pieces (both rings (no unity), belt, source, gloves, lacunis, and ammy).
5) If you are at 700 AR and 4500 armor you can do MP8 or above....you just need to see what works. I usually (even with my setup, because I'm lazy) use UA for the extra life. That leaves CM and Evo for the other two passives. If you feel squishy, use Shell instead of shards for the extra 11k life. If you're still squishy, and you might be at MP10 (esp if you fall short of the stats), use Energy armor. I know...that'll kill your DPS because of no storm armor...but you'll easily survive. Using force armor will keep you from getting one-shot by Mag's swarm attack or Kule's fireball. I'm at 812AR/4673Armor with a litany ring (-6% elite reduction) so I can cruise through ubers on MP10 no problem. Only took me 10 months to get here!!
* I never see a wiz using a SOJ. Everyone needs to stack CC and IAS...so a SOJ never works out.
* DPS tests (cut and pasted from answering this previously). There are 2 ways to do it...based on what you're looking for. Alot of the multiplier figures kicked around are based on a single target.....and is really easy to obtain. The number you get has a caveat though - most of the game isn't played against a single target, but rather against a mob of enemies (major exception is Ubers). However, once you widdle that pack down your're left with a single elite, so it still has relevance. Its also useful against kiting elites, etc.... The second way gives you a value against a mob at full windeup.....but is harder to obtain.
The single target is Gohm, and the method is discussed here:
Basically, find out how many seconds it takes to kill Gohm on MP8. He has 70.6M life...so divide that by seconds and you get your eDPS. Divide by your DPS and that gives you your multiplier.
The mob test is more difficult. You really need, or it helps, to have video recording software. Turn on the life numbers for enemies. Find an elite mob, TP in, get to full windup and start recording. After 10 sec, stop. You can then go back and see what the elites' life was before and after 10 seconds.....then do the same math as above. That will get you a more real-world estimate of you eDPS and multiplier. You can also do this without video recording software its just more tedius, not quite as accurate, and you die pretty often trying to write life values for the elites and start your stopwatch, and keep the enemies all locked down. But, with some practice, you can do it.
Also, from a statistical standpoint, before you go sharing numbers around the forums, make sure you have an n=3 (repeat three times and average the values). This just makes sure there aren't any outliers and you are accurate as possible.
Edited by PieHole#1628 on 4/2/2013 11:50 AM PDT
i Have been reading around, im wanting to upgrade my damage, im at 78k currently and just dont see how people are hitting 300k..
also money? do you guys just get lucky and find an expensive item and sale that? or do these builds require you to buy gold on rmah? im not too keen on that idea..
any advice on upgrading my gear/build is very welcome!!
i have only 5mil currently.
I'm a long time wiz, and just started gearing my barb. For the latter, I realized the importance of a good guide. It's not easy to roll a new alt and figure out all the nuances. Just wanted to give props for writing this guide AND continually answering questions for people who are new to the class.
You are so awesome! Thanks for taking the time to read through my post and answer all my questions along with breaking down EVERYTHING.
I think I have a better grasp now of wiz mechanics and this SNS build vs defensive CM/WW.
Thanks for breaking this part down extensively. Now, I know true HP is not only on character but effective HP is on DS skill. (well... ACTUAL effective HP opposed to the fictitious conversion calc as it's a temporary and refreshable 1:1)
Perhaps the biggest help! I totally misunderstood the mechanics and thought DS was a 10.8k or 21.7k FLAT off the top (as in it in itself was damage mitigation before all other mods). In hindsight, what I thought doesn't make much sense since High MPs and Ubers, that small dmg absorbed off the top means almost nothing. This makes soooo much more sense now and explains why mitigation wins out even at higher levels and why on character you don't stack to 50k+ HP!
I guess that means for gear slot efficiency (6 IAS slots) I should be moving to 1.78 APS wand and swapping unity for CC/9IAS to hit 2.73 BP. (Either that, drop ehp for Tal Chest, or drop CD for 9 IAS on ammy... yikers!)
TY for the help!
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