Diablo® III

ShockNadoShards(SNS), a CM/WW build [guide]P2

04/11/2013 05:06 PMPosted by BobFarmer
3. Skill Suggestion: Slow Time, Time Warp in place of Storm Armor.


Sorry, I have to respectfully disagree there. You're are going to be giving up a ton of DPS. Tests have showed over and over that using storm armor is worth about a 40% increase in DPS. Yeah, the bubble will bring 20%....and is a group buff. Maybe that's something to think about. But if you're farming you ought to be using deep freeze for the extra 15CC (which is a huge bump for DPS) and will be amplified more by Storm armor (40%) than the bubble (at 20%).

If you want to use some sort of bubble instead of *teleport*, fine. But not instead of Storm Armor.

Then again, there's always room for variations and play styles, but before you make a claim like running with bubble *feels* faster than with Storm armor, try the DPS test with Gohm.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7004691927
We like hard data here in the wiz forums.

Cheers!
Edited by PieHole#1628 on 4/12/2013 8:03 AM PDT
3. Skill Suggestion: Slow Time, Time Warp in place of Storm Armor.


Sorry, I have to respectfully disagree there. You're are going to be giving up a ton of DPS. Tests have showed over and over that using storm armor is worth about a 40% increase in DPS. Yeah, the bubble will bring 20%....and is a group buff. Maybe that's something to think about. But if you're farming you ought to be using deep freeze for the extra 15CC (which is a huge bump for DPS) and will be amplified more by Storm armor (40%) than the bubble (at 20%).

If you want to use some sort of bubble instead of *teleport*, fine. But not instead of Storm Armor.

Then again, there's always room for variations and play styles, but before you make a claim like running with bubble *feels* faster than with Storm armor, try the DPS test with Gohm.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7004691927
We like hard data here in the wiz forums.

Cheers!

Not trying to "make claims," I'm trying to investigate the build. I am a bit new to the forums, but not to the game or the build, or to math. Unfortunately I don't have all the inputs I need to math everything out just yet. Yes, I see what Storm Armor does, but my question is--does every SA display visually? If so, I can count them easily. If not, then there's hidden damage there I can't account for.

On the other hand, if ST/TW adds 20% to everything, that's every DS, every WW tick, and every EB. If I do DS and EB even just once per second, that's 42% more DS and 58.2% more EB. With even just 10 WW stacked that's 82%/sec. All that aside, where it seems to have a disproportionate, sheet-beating result is when EB triggers. I ran an entire Plevel of farming MP8 with it, and another Plevel without it (both solo) and the results were... hard to explain by the math.

I find there are several different play scenarios. Random farming, known boss fighting, and MP10 Ubers. I tweak my skill settings a bit for each. For example with Ubers I go for Evocation, but with farming I'll use Glass Cannon. In group play I use ST/TW, etc. The data you linked to is interesting, but doesn't necessarily address all these scenarios. Ghom is Ghom, a way to measure, but not indicative of every fight.

My mainstay is SA, I break out ST/TW when in group play because the 20% boost happens to all. I want you to know I wasn't trying to discredit the build, or you. That's also why I asked if anyone wants to come and experiment with me, so we could figure out (mostly APS-related) more data. On the contrary, I've been doing CM/WW then SNS since 1.07, and you are the best thing that has happened to it since Blizzard made the skills in the first place!

Now, what to do about my pants?? :)
Edited by BobFarmer#1874 on 4/12/2013 8:36 AM PDT
@BobFarmer: IMO your new pants are better than your old. Only downside is that you dropped 50 LOH.

If you don't like the ghom test, use a video capture and record a VOTA run. Take a 10 second slice of each elite fight (after windup) and see how much damage you did by summing up the difference of health bars at 0s and 10s. This method works for group play too.

In a 4x SNS group, having the wizard with the least DPS drop SA for TW should be OK. I would think replacing your right-click would be better, like Pie said.
@BobFarmer: IMO your new pants are better than your old. Only downside is that you dropped 50 LOH.

If you don't like the ghom test, use a video capture and record a VOTA run. Take a 10 second slice of each elite fight (after windup) and see how much damage you did by summing up the difference of health bars at 0s and 10s. This method works for group play too.

In a 4x SNS group, having the wizard with the least DPS drop SA for TW should be OK. I would think replacing your right-click would be better, like Pie said.

Good ideas, thanks!

I'm still wearing the new pants, hard to tell a difference either way at this point. I'm also still searching for ways to boost my mitigation. Smart teleporting and high APS keep me alive, but the rare pack of fast illusionist ranged mobs with other ugly affixes tend to get scattered are hard to pin down in permafreeze. Upgrading my gear is becoming harder and harder...
@bob...

Ok...no problem. Sometimes we get people from out of nowhere who come into the forums, "make claims" and are total bitc**s about it. Epeen, blast nonsense, spew hatred, and madness ensues. We don't like that. But, since you're new here and want to learn and brainstorm, that's certainly cool.

Yeah, the MP8 Gohm test isn't the best test, but its basic, easy, and readily tested. Just set your toon up with SNS but switch out Time Warp for Storm Armor. Get out a stop watch...and kill gohm refreshing your bubble every 6 or 7 seconds. Quick math will give you your multiplier. Granted, its against a single target, not a bob, but its a start. Getting a multiplier against a full mob is more difficult....but if you can't the SNS multiplier against gohm, then you probably won't against a full mob.

And, yeah, the storm armor damage I'm talking about is NOT the big lightning bolts from the sky. Its damage is worked into the WW damage. So its really difficult to see.

Check out the CM/WW simulator: http://d3cmww.com/cmww -----> mind=blown

Here is another link where Shandlar (legend around here) went through some math.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7708262216

I, honestly, never had time for the math. I just understand the outcomes, and relate those in the guide. Shad doesn't hang out here too much. After understanding everything there was to know about CM Wiz he went to figure out everything there was to know about Monks. Our resident math expert now is Loroese, one of the originators of the build. Just call him out in the title of a post, and he'll gladly work through some of the math with you. He loves it.

---

But you are correct, different situations mean different builds, but some of the basics of the build should never change:
WW/EB/DS/FN/SA for actives and CM for passives. Runes can change, and passives too:
DS: shell, if you need more mitigation...otherwise always shards (for DPS)
FN: Deep Freeze for farming, Bone chill is great as a party buff (and for ubers), cold snap also good for ubers (makes it feel like an additional breakpoint)
TP is usually the last active skill....its usually wormhole for moving around quickly, but safe passage is good for ubers for the damage reduction. Otherwise various bubbles (like you suggested) are good for playing in groups. Stretch Time stacks (if you have 2 or more wizards) where as Time warp does not. Oh, Magic weapon electrify is also a huge DPS boost with big mobs...so its can make farming quick if you're farming with a slow-moving group (and don't need TP).
Edited by PieHole#1628 on 4/12/2013 9:05 AM PDT
The right click option is my biggest conundrum!! When I was doing 150k sheet DPS, adding magic weapon was a huge difference maker for faster farming runs in MP10. But man do I miss the fun and ease of teleporting. Also losing teleport made UA much more necessary as a passive. Now that my buffed sheet DPS is close to 300k. I am thinking Magic Weapon is not so necessary. So I will probably go back to teleport with the new wall buff!!

Don't be making me think about Time Bubble!! I have a hard enough time choosing between the two now! Hmmm, if I go back to to teleport, I wonder what I should do with UA. Evocation feels extremely unnecessary, and let's be honest, it's not the sexiest passive in the world. Blur? Meh. Cannon - no way, right? Would require much more kiting and slow down the runs. Sigh ...
Edited by kcbandit#1990 on 4/12/2013 9:07 AM PDT
Question to CM experts:

considering a source, do I go with

avg dam +160 with APOC

or

dam +260 without APOC

?

The first allows for IAS mempo, second choice forces crow.

thoughts?
@Shammy -

Forgive him Lord, he knows not what he has done.

LOL

You are bringing up the biggest fighting topic among all CMWW Wiz's!!
@bob...

Check out the CM/WW simulator: http://d3cmww.com/cmww -----> mind=blown



I think I'm in love...

My current build shows 1,666,863.5 single-target average DPS with a 7.94 ratio. Now to play around with gear, APS, skills, whatever, and figure out how to maximize that.

I was also able to use this page to prove what I was feeling--with enough targets, Time Warp beats SA as a direct replacement. With 9+ targets TW beats SA. That explains why I was seeing huge groups go down faster in the bubble than with SA on. I was noticing this most by running around Stonefort, Dahlgur Oasis, and Fields of Misery (key warden areas), herding together large groups of 20+ mobs, teleporting into the middle, and killing them. However, as the sheet shows, it probably isn't even worth the extra 15% damage at that point to bother rotating configs. :)

I'm in your debt. If there's anything you need, please let me know.
@Shammy -

Forgive him Lord, he knows not what he has done.

LOL

You are bringing up the biggest fighting topic among all CMWW Wiz's!!


LOL

New to CM, migrating from archon, need some pointers pls! :)
Lol,

check this out Shammy:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/8569148402

basically, alot comes down to gold. Mempo/APOC Force is the winner...but it tales a lot of gold (500M-1B) to make ti work well. I think that's the general consensus.
Question to CM experts:

considering a source, do I go with

avg dam +160 with APOC

or

dam +260 without APOC

?

The first allows for IAS mempo, second choice forces crow.

thoughts?

I think it all comes down to how fast you want to go. I'm a speed freak, as is evidenced by my posts. I use a 1.79 APOC Chant as well as Mempo, contributing to a total 74% non-weapon IAS. Most people will tell you that if you can get past your ~2.73 breakpoint, you shouldn't worry about more IAS, and instead go with best mitigation first, then best DPS. I'm in love with 3.1+ APS, so my views are slightly different.
Edited by BobFarmer#1874 on 4/12/2013 9:29 AM PDT
Lol,

check this out Shammy:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/8569148402

basically, alot comes down to gold. Mempo/APOC Force is the winner...but it tales a lot of gold (500M-1B) to make ti work well. I think that's the general consensus.


OK, I'm by no means rich as you can see by the numbers posted. When I say IAS Mempo, no CC there! I can't afford that. So I'm guessing from last two posts, better off going highest avg dam on source and going with a crow (or something with similar needed stats). Correct me if I'm misinterpreting the posts. So a follow up question, IAS Will, or CD Will?
How about Andariel's Visage?
@shammy

Well, CC on the mempo isn't necessarilly the problem. If I switched to a nom-CC Mempo I'd still be at 51.5 CC, which is respectable. Its most about the cost of the Force. Just look up a 250 Avg damage Will - APOC and non-APOC version. The price difference is staggering.

In the end, CD or OS WIll provides more DPS. It's just that you probably have to use Lacunis (bad for DPS unless you're rich and can afford alot of CC and INT) and a CC/IAS/CD ammy (which is bad for DPS unless you can afford alot of CD and INT). Conversely, check out my setup for an IAS Will - can use an ammy with CC and CD (almost 100) and a bunch of other stats you want/need and some rolled bracers (max CC and int (wish I had a double INT roll!)). Running with an OS or CD wasn't isn't necessarily a gg or 1%'er thing....it just makes gearing a little more difficult. Now, if you do OS/CD -and- mempo/APOC Force....you then have the ability once again to use rare bracers or a non-IAS ammy. Inna's pants afford you that same opportunity. But then you're moving into expensive territory.

TL;DR - run IAS wand if you have a limited budget, 1.78/1.79 IAS Wand or CD/OS if you have a decent budget (300M+), and whatever you want with a budget larger than that.
Edited by PieHole#1628 on 4/12/2013 10:55 AM PDT
Shammy,

No andy's helm. Its considered a poor man's Mempo, which is fine. However, since it has no APOC, it still requires you to use an APOC force (for ~20 overall). Unless you're really hard up for CC, even a non-CC Mempo will do, really. And if you can afford a nice APOC FOrce, you can probably afford a CC Mempo.
Shammy,

No andy's helm. Its considered a poor man's Mempo, which is fine. However, since it has no APOC, it still requires you to use an APOC force (for ~20 overall). Unless you're really hard up for CC, even a non-CC Mempo will do, really. And if you can afford a nice APOC FOrce, you can probably afford a CC Mempo.


Any chance you can pop in and check my gear out? I bought the chantodo set with an APOC source, a ghetto budget SC and mempo just to test out the best config.
@shammy

You currently have a very curious Archon setup going on in your profile. you'll need to put on your CM stuff and log out.

--i guess butcher's sickle is a black weapon. nevermind ;-)
@shammy

You currently have a very curious Archon setup going on in your profile. you'll need to put on your CM stuff and log out.

--i guess butcher's sickle is a black weapon. nevermind ;-)


Oh it refreshes on logout? Good to know! Yes the archon build/gear has been great so far, love it, but I need a change. CM seems like it has so many variables, and I got my APS to 2nd breakpoint, but CC is abysmally low <40. BRB gonna log out.
I put on my andariel's visage since it combines the CC of the SC and the IAS of the mempo in order to get the middle ground. If I go SC, I lack IAS, but with mempo, I lack CC. Actually in all cases, my CC is too low.

Edit: oh and I lost like 14k life with the new gear (swapping out archon gear)
Edited by Shammy#1705 on 4/12/2013 11:32 AM PDT
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