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Thank you for the suggestions Pie! Pretty pumped, went on the ah last night to price out different sources, and ended up sniping the one on my profile for 40k. Boosted my ehp quite a bit, I hadn't thought about looking for strength on it before. You the man!
@f3nsir & redmond
What MP to farm partly depends on what you find enjoyable and how much you involve math!
Sure, you get a 250% bonus to MP at MP10, which is the largest bonus that you can get. Many people therefore assume that its the best place to farm. Untrue.
Ex1 - Say you have 75% MF gear/paragon, 75% from your stacks, and 250% from MP10...that makes 400% total. Say also that it takes you 1 hr to fully clear Act3 - maybe all the keeps, Fields of Slaughter, Key warden, etc.
Ex2 - Say you have 75% MF gear/paragon, 75% from your stacks, and 200% from MP8...that makes 350% total. Since the enemies have half the amount of life, lets say that you clear it in about 30 minutes.
Overall....it makes little sense to farm at MP10!!! You could farm MP8 TWICE in the time that it takes you to farm MP10 once....and only for an extra 50% MF. Another way of looking at it is that by doing MP8 twice, you have an effective MF of 700% (versus farming MP10 once at 400%)!!!
So....I just go for what "feels" efficient....killing an elite pack in 20 seconds...something like that (for me, that MP7-8). For awhile I did low MP speed farming.....you can breeze through a run in 10-15 min on MP3 (roughly 75+75+75=225%...if you do it 4x an hour, that'd be an effective ~800% MF) - so, that's another possibility.
Now, i'm playing a little fast an lose with the numbers, so don't definitively hold me to them. But this is generally how MF works. Don't get caught up in the MP10 farming hype (if you can't kill an elite in ~20 sec or so)....its too slow to make the extra MF valuable. Instead, farm lower MP's more effectively and efficiently.
BTW, I'd suggest a DPS of, like, 200k to farm MP10 "efficiently." Like I said....with ~150k DPS I typically farm MP7 or 8. It makes little sense to go up higher. I have the mitigation to hang in there,....but DPS isn't there. When I get to 175K I'll probably jump up to MP8/9 on a routine basis. Now, that doesn't mean that you can't do Ubers at MP10 - that's a different story. There's no reason why you can't do that (skip all the white enemies, just kill the 5 elites to get your stacks, then kill the 3 Ubers).
Edited by PieHole#1628 on 3/19/2013 12:57 PM PDT
Nicely balanced Wiz! ...and here's how you start down the path to rock it out.
I'll give you 2 suggestions (1-2) that will help open up gearing options for the future (3-4) and eventually (5-6).
1) VW: 630 armor, 150+ STR, 80+ VIT, 180+ INT (under 5M)
2) T&T: same as your, but with 100+ VIT (under 5M)
(i.e. stacking VIT here, so you don't need it on other items, like rings and bracers, etc...you can upgrade to better ones with no VIT)
3) Left ring: 5-6CC, 7 IAS, 60+ AR, etc
4) Storm Crow: 4 CC, 400+ Armor, 400+ LoH (450+ really, so you can afford to only have 350 on pants for a later upgrade (which will be cheaper), and still have ~800 total LoH)
(i.e. move AR from SC to your ring, so you can add more CC)
5) Chant Will with 1.78 or 1.79 AS. Yeah, expensive. But, if you also keep in mind and gear up with the ideal of having 9 IAS on all your items, then with a "fast" wand you can reach the breakpoint with only 6 IAS items (6*9=54% 1.54*1.78=2.74).
6) Ammy: With your fast weapon, you can drop IAS from your ammy and BAM...add CD. Like 100 CD!!! (ok, settle for 80+). Even if you have to get a lower DPS Will that's 1.78/9 you will more than make up for it with the extra CD on your ammy.
Just use a site like d3up.com to import your stats in, and see what the DPS advantage will be (i.e. balance between adding a faster, but lower DPS Will and adding CD to ammy....to make sure you come out ahead, lol).
Good luck! (and don't forget to keep adding in extra AR (bracers, ring, etc)... because like you said, you are a little low._
I love it when a good plan comes together! For some reason, at least me personally when I was first starting out, I would buy a source and only pay attention to the highest average damage that I could afford....I'd buy it and then forget about it. Probably upgrade everything else 2 or 3 times before returning to my source. I also hadn't though about adding any main stat to it either. I know better now, and am glad that you've done it as well. Even 100 STR is beneficial as armor. VIT is of course one of the most expensive things to add, but is nice to have there as long as you don't sacrifice too much AVG damage to do it.
Ive been following a few threads, and reading between the lines with some of the debates, and I think I'm reading that:
1. The 2.51(2.74 drops dps too much?) aps breakpoint with either a black dagger+trium or socket/chd chant is top dps and best for levelling/farming mobs
2. The 2.74+ breakpoint with an ias chant set is best for ubers due to near complete stunlock
I've been tossing around gear and using calculators to try to figure out how to up dps from 120k at 2.86 aps to something around 200k at 2.51 - so far no real luck at least for paper dps (minor changes of a couple k either way).
I'm playing around atm with subbing meteor out with a -5 meteor/apoc chant offhand, but on the fence; killing seems to go faster but having to stay in groups as the initial wind up is often deadly for me solo (low LOH and no LS without blades - looking for loh rings).
I just want to confirm or at least get your opinions on the above statement before I really try to get two sets of gear together with the kind of cost associated.
Also, I cant find anyones ideas on the exact relationship between varying apoc/aps/crit chance numbers.
It would seem reasonable that at some point the effectiveness of a ratio of 50% crit and 2.74 aps could be matched by a ration of apoc to crit using 2.51 aps.
I'd like to know what that point is, so that if I can end up dropping ias gear to add chd and crit alone (cheaper then tri gear) with a +8% crit wand sub or just a black dagger/trium setup and end up with higher damage and the ability to stun-lock ubers it would be win win.
Does anyone have a solid number on this or is it still very much guesswork at this point?
Edited by Tinkerbell#1915 on 3/19/2013 8:31 PM PDT
I am mainly a DH player, but I am really starting to like Wiz SNS build due to you have to plan things out properly. Face tanking is not always the option.
I have tossed on gear from my DH and WD... just wondering if I am on the right track for farming MP10. I rarely do anything in between... Either MP0~2 or MP10.
I have an +10 iAS /10 APOC wand (1.78) 1176 dps and my open socket wand with 10 APOC (1.61) what I am currently equipped with.
I tend to go back an forth from one to the other. I am guessing it comes down to personal preference, but I would like to hear why someone would like a iAS/APOC versus an OS/APOC wand.
Great thread and thanks.
Edited by Neoshinji#1433 on 3/19/2013 4:13 PM PDT
Okay, Mr. PieHole -
I am still a fairly new Level 60 Wiz, but I feel like my build is finally to the stage where I feel like I could get some good advice on where I should go next. Finally got to the 2.5 APS breakpoint, and I don't know if it's just me, but the difference between 2.3 and 2.5 is nuts.
My gut is telling me to give up some CD for attack speed on the Amulet, and if I do that as well as replace my Strongarms with Lacunni's, I think I can get to 2.73. I REALLY like the Zuni 3 set combo for the AR, but if I need to give up that say the word. If you have suggestions for small changes/less gold versus big ones for lots of gold, that would be awesome. I don't want to spend $500 on pixels, but I am not afraid to shell out a little bit extra here and there if it would make a huge impact.
Also, if you have any concerns or comments on the skill choices, please say so. I chose Anomaly because I just hate those crazy deaths that come out of nowhere - (horde, plague, morter, combo crap).
Any thoughts on what MP level I could farm with this build? Just tried out MP6, and seemed okay??
One last thing, can you explain the ruin choice in our Armor? Does that give extra APOC chances or do we just get a huge DPS boost from large mobs since the 35% adds up when you are diong crits half the time? I was thinking about maybe Reactive or Thunder might work here?
(this launched a whole new discussion thread, thanks! ) http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/8197743131?page=1
There are actually sever things to consider (as you would have imagined!).
freeze strength (related to CM procs)
LoH (related to attack speed. i.e. breakpoint)
damage multiplier (a mystical, magical force (sometimes))
I have some threads linked below, but will summarize the data here:
"Equivalent Setups" for Freezing:
Why doesn't everyone drop to 2.5001 breakpoint if this is the case?
* First is survivability based on LoH returns as I said before - being able to stand through the worst affixes is a huge advantage....you're not breaking your lock or interrupting your full windup (which is your max DPS). This really shouldn't be understated. Some people move to 3.01 just for this reason....they get over 40% more LoH returns versus 2.5....and can drop some armor/all res simply because of this.
* The other is simply gearing options and cost. If you max out CC on all of your armor pieces (and use nat's set) that gives you max 60CC (and 66 with a CC Nats (unrealistic)). That's impossible. Back off 1CC from each item and that puts you at 54...still, very difficult (but where I am finally at) while maintaining DPS and mitigation. Most people while starting out, and even after gearing awhile, have trouble cracking 50CC. Would stacking CC be easier than stacking IAS? Perhaps. Yeah, probably. But that always get me back to the first point. But: "Pie, just add a third source of LoH!" OK, fine - you'd have to add an extra 200 LoH. Not the end of the world, but now that's taking up a roll on a ring or amulet, just like CC or IAS would. That's not cheap either.
Steve's Simulator: http://d3cmww.com/ ; http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7709121181?page=1
2.5/2.73 Thread: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7811651308?page=3#45
Edited by PieHole#1628 on 3/20/2013 11:50 AM PDT
It mostly comes down to....well, alot of things really. One major difference is the number of IAS pieces that you need to use.
1.78 - 1.79 AS Will - you will need 6 pieces of IAS gear
1.68 - 1.77 AS Will - you will need 7 pieces of IAS gear
1.61- 1.65 AS Will - you will need 8 pieces of IAS gear
I have always used a "fast" 1.78+ Will so I only need IAS on gloves, 2xrings, chest, source, and belt. Of course, they all have to be 9 IAS items...but 6*9=54 and 1.54*1.78=2.74
This lets me use rare (crafted) bracers and a non-IAS ammy where I can stack CD. This is pretty huge. I can also add 15 more IAS and hit the 3.01 breakpoint (lacunis and ammy). So, this is why I always have used a fast IAS Will.
With an OS Will, you will need IAS on 2 additional pieces from above...like lacunis and ammy. You have a little more flexibility in the IAS that you need on items. If you have a 1.61 OS (or native CD) Will, you will need 70 IAS to reach breakpoint (six 9 IAS pieces and two 8 IAS pieces). Faster Will's will lower the IAS requirements on the 8 pieces. Having the extra (up to) 110 CD can be pretty huge for DPS.
I honestly can't really tell you which is best. I was running with 4500 armor/750All Res/120k DPS and built a set for someone for 300M (about the same that i had spent on my gear). He wanted an OS wand.....so I built the set around that. And guess what....same results in the end! If I were to guess I would say that a good majority of the top players around here play with OS Chant Wills (maybe 3/4)....the rest with "fast" IAS Wills. The availability and cost of the 1.78/1.79 Will is also a big consideration....they're expensive. Not that a OS wand is cheap. Alot is personal preference, I guess.
Here are links to two regular forum contributors who arrived at pretty much the same DPS with either IAS or OS Chants.
Edited by PieHole#1628 on 3/20/2013 12:29 PM PDT
I grabbed an 11ias 7ww chdos slorak . Running 27apoc 52/59 crit and over 1k loh.
Current profile shows 9 APoC?
Where is all of your APOC? Seeing that Slorak's doesn't come with APOC and you're using a non-APOC Force, that means the only APOC is from your StormCrow. And that's why your AP keeps running dry.
edit: sorry...simultaneous post with Worloega!
Edited by PieHole#1628 on 3/20/2013 1:02 PM PDT
Lots of good questions.
To get to 2.73 with your current wand: 2.73=1.74x and x=1.568, so 57% IAS (I always doublecheck 1.57*1.74=2.732)
Currently you are at 44, so you need 13 more IAS.
Also, you are at
* 4000 armor (good, not great, wouldn't go lower),
* 679 all res (good, not great, wouldn't go lower. Its also boosted by your INT, so if you have to shed INT to get IAS, you'll likely have to add some All Res to make up.
* 45 CC (bare minimum, really. Wouldn't go lower)
* you have a TON of life. As you increase breakpoint and mitigation (armor and all res) you can shed some of that....anything above 35k really. 40k is a nice place to be.
Since you need 2 pieces to get to 2.73, I'd suggest your left ring and bracers. And not your amulet. It's the one piece that can go up to 100 CD (other than Chant Will)...and you'll never get there if you have to add in IAS.
Lacunis: 4.5CC, 50 Vit, 50 INT, 8 IAS. alternative: 4.5CC, 50+ All Res, 8 IAS
Swap your CC Zuni Ring for an IAS Zuni ring. Same stats....just IAS instead of CC. I'm blindly making this assertion without the AH nearby to consider the financial ramifications (since I haven't dealt with zuni ring much). However, since it only needs to be 6 IAS (making the rest up on your bracers to hit 13) I feel like its not going to break the bank.
I'd switch to Nats set....like everybody else!
Boots: 600 armor, 90 INT, 150+ Dex, 77+ All Res (you'll actually gain 20+ all res even though you lose your set bonus). You can also add in VIT, if you choose.
Ring: 7 IAS, 300 LoH, INT......whatever you can afford. I also don't know what cost of this is. The IAS and LoH shouldn't be a problem....its everything you want to add on top of that.
This should get you to 2.73 (by adding 13 IAS), keep LoH the same, Increase your CC by 4, decrease your life (you should still be above 40k) and INT/DPS. But you'll be in a better place.
note: play with the IAS of each item (both rings and bracers). I said 8 for bracers, 6 for zuni ring, and 7 for nats ring....but any combination will work. But try for 9 on the bracers if possible....leave the most flexibility for the rings.
FUTURE: if you want to shell out cash/gold, you can always start converting to more of an end-game build....using an 1.78/1.79 Wand. The equivalent DPS wand for you would be, like 250M. I only suggest it because you already have quite a few 9 IAS items. You'd only need six 9 IAS items and a 1.78 wand to hit 2.73...leaving you with an extra non-IAS piece....such as BIS crafted Bracers (instead of crappy lacunis). Just something to think about long term (i.e. as you're buying either ring above...if you find a 9 IAS one that seems like a good deal, you might want to go for it....thinking of this course of action).
Good lord. I was switching and buying so much gear i didnt realize my wand was missing apoc and i had the wrong oh.
Oh well, have to switch oh over and see if 19 apoc will cut it.
In regards to this build, when talking about crit, are we just really focusing on ww?
Im thinking that at base 52 crit, and having 7 crit extra on ww already, that i might switch my rare
Ring with a skull grasp that has another 8 on it for 67 ww crit.
What would your feelings about that be? Is boosting ww crit enough to get my lockdown
And loh returns back?
I'm not just facing problems freeze-locking Kulle and Siege, but also with SK and Maghda. I am wondering if latency plays a part here, considering I'm not in the US?
What stats would you suggest me to upgrade from here on? I somehow can't really do ubers efficiently. I get "walked" over by SK a lot and usually kills me, and also Magdha's bees. Is it due to armor or something else?
For the most part, WW CC is what we are concerned with. There are also crits for explosive blast (Chain reaction gives 3, which is most of the reason why we use it, as opposed to the other runes) and diamond shards. Those make up somewhere between 5 and 10% of the CC crits. The rest come from WW.
However, say you are running:
45 base CC
sloraks (with + 7 WW CC)
skull grasp (with + 7 WW CC)
Overall, you'd be freaking golden with "60CC". You'd get plenty of crits from EB & DS from the base 45 CC, and the WW crits covers you past the ~55CC that'd you'd need to make 2.5 feel like 2.73. In other words, I don't think I'd advocate going with 35 base CC plus 15CC from +WW CC to reach "50CC". That might be a stretch.
And, like you said, you'd be in the 67CC range....it should really feel like you are at 2.73....maybe even more so. *Except* for LoH....no amount of CC will boost that. LoH is based on the tic rate of the WW, and is based on the breakpoint. You get 33 tics every 6 seconds per twister at the 2.5 breakpoint. At 2.73 you will get 36 tics, and is responsible for the increase in LoH. If you feel like you need more, then adding 200 (to get somewhere closer to 1000) will certainly cover it (and that comes on Skull Grasp anyway).
I have not had any issues freezing SK and Mag since the latest patch, only SB/Kule (btw, did you see the thread on how to deal with thie?)
I'm going to assume that the gear you have on now is not what you are using for Ubers, but are using for leveling. For ubers you should be at the 2.73 breakpoint with close to 50CC for the best freezing.
I'm not sure what part latency plays at 2.73. I know that people with over 200 latency find that running at 3.01 has no benefit, so falling down to 2.73 is the answer for them.
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