Diablo® III

Worth Dropping OWE now?

I'm curious what dps stats people are having to give up to get AR, compared to giving up the same # (one lol...) of stats for a resist of their choice with OWE to save money.

Or you could mention double stacking resists, but that further gimps your dps by requiring TWO affixes on items compared to one.

Its really not that bad if you think about it. You can get AR on these slots without sacrificing dps:

helm
shoulders
amulet
gloves
bracers
belt
ring
boots

You could be conservative and figure 60 AR per slot. That still gives you ~480 AR, and thats not factoring in whatever INT you have from leveling (or things like WH). Thats more than enough to easily handle MP10 anything.

See, it all comes down to cost.

Look at my WH - 90 dex, 90 vit, 9/44 ... and 49 cold resist. I got it for 170 mill. How much would it cost if you just changed the CR to AR? Then you have to factor in that the inability to double stack resists on non-DPS oriented pieces (shoulders, boots, bracers to a degree) means that you really should look for a higher resist roll than what I currently have. So how many WHs exist with 90d, 90v, 9/44, 60+ AR? How expensive are they?

Keeping OwE locks up a passive, but it allows you to be flexible with gear. Dropping OwE frees up a passive, but it removes options when it comes to gearing.

The general argument for dropping OwE when it comes to gear is that it allows you to get better rolls (more dps rolls?) in place of the double stacked resists. This argument is 100% incorrect.

Here's why:
That still gives you ~480 AR, and thats not factoring in whatever INT you have from leveling (or things like WH). Thats more than enough to easily handle MP10 anything.

The amount of resist you need to survive doesn't change whether you are using OwE or not. If we followed that resist guideline, the OP could feel free to drop the phys resist on his Nat's boots and get a high dex roll and high vit roll. He'd still have enough resist to survive MP 10.

Same thing with the gear in my profile - I'm at around 542 resist ... so I could definitely drop the CR on my boots for a high dex/vit roll if I wanted to and still be around that magic 500 number.

The difference in gearing for OwE and not gearing for OwE is cost, and that's it.
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03/20/2013 04:57 AMPosted by Vrkhyz
Oh, right, you've got Quickening. Well, eventually, you'll figure out that's the JV version of this combo. Check the forums; word is getting out. Good luck!


I didn't find the thread/build, what is it exactly?
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03/20/2013 08:47 AMPosted by LSOJJ
Oh, right, you've got Quickening. Well, eventually, you'll figure out that's the JV version of this combo. Check the forums; word is getting out. Good luck!

I didn't find the thread/build, what is it exactly?

A secret, obviously :)

No, seriously, I've never used it myself. I think Quickening plus Infused with Light is pretty damn good, although I haven't used that, either. Doesn't work too well for me with this equipment.
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03/20/2013 01:57 AMPosted by speedforce
Actually I've been telling everyone for the past two months and nobody believed me nor nobody would even try. They were too focused on cookie cutter from LordRaahl and Druin


I don't know enough about the cookie cutter builds (nor do I care really), but what I have never understood is why if someone isn't spamming overawe, they don't use submission. What am I missing here? I get the additional 12% damage dealt, but is it just the fact that the extra 12% is active damage vs 18% passive damage (spiky vs steady)?

Dunno, I have pretty craptacular gear and was able to beat Inferno 1.04 style with my Monk (not that that is impressive, but it is reference) with my current spec. There are a number of tweaks that I could make with better gear (dropping chant of resonance being #1), but I guess I am simply interested in the theorycrafting more than the actual gear set up :)
Edited by Fayld#1951 on 3/20/2013 10:50 AM PDT
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See, it all comes down to cost.

Look at my WH - 90 dex, 90 vit, 9/44 ... and 49 cold resist. I got it for 170 mill. How much would it cost if you just changed the CR to AR? Then you have to factor in that the inability to double stack resists on non-DPS oriented pieces (shoulders, boots, bracers to a degree) means that you really should look for a higher resist roll than what I currently have. So how many WHs exist with 90d, 90v, 9/44, 60+ AR? How expensive are they?


@Piffle complete agree with you.
Dropping OWE or not, it is a cost issue. In this case, the WH from CR to AR will cost you probably 500m~1B.. Yet, there are benefits you have to when you drop OWE, be it using
fleet footed, combo strike, beacon, exalted soul, guiding light, pacifism, etc. And usually this means more in PvP than PvE.

If you are at 40k dps, it may take you 10M to drop OWE, and rearrange your slots.
If you are at 150~200k dps, it may take you upward of 1B+ to completely drop OWE.

OP, you have gone down the right path, but at your gear level, if you want to drop OWE and maintain your DPS, and resist level, I would say you got some work to do, and may take you 1B to do it.

$100 usd may be a lot to some people, but it's chump change for others.
In the end, only you can answer for yourself, Is it worth it?
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See, it all comes down to cost.

Look at my WH - 90 dex, 90 vit, 9/44 ... and 49 cold resist. I got it for 170 mill. How much would it cost if you just changed the CR to AR? Then you have to factor in that the inability to double stack resists on non-DPS oriented pieces (shoulders, boots, bracers to a degree) means that you really should look for a higher resist roll than what I currently have. So how many WHs exist with 90d, 90v, 9/44, 60+ AR? How expensive are they?


@Piffle complete agree with you.
Dropping OWE or not, it is a cost issue. In this case, the WH from CR to AR will cost you probably 500m~1B.. Yet, there are benefits you have to when you drop OWE, be it using
fleet footed, combo strike, beacon, exalted soul, guiding light, pacifism, etc. And usually this means more in PvP than PvE.

If you are at 40k dps, it may take you 10M to drop OWE, and rearrange your slots.
If you are at 150~200k dps, it may take you upward of 1B+ to completely drop OWE.

OP, you have gone down the right path, but at your gear level, if you want to drop OWE and maintain your DPS, and resist level, I would say you got some work to do, and may take you 1B to do it.

$100 usd may be a lot to some people, but it's chump change for others.
In the end, only you can answer for yourself, Is it worth it?


It would take me exactly 200 USD from where I am right now to do it, 466 AR, 300k unbuffed DPS, 525k EHP without amethyst.

Really tempted to pull the trigger right now.
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It would take me exactly 200 USD from where I am right now to do it, 466 AR, 300k unbuffed DPS, 525k EHP without amethyst.

Really tempted to pull the trigger right now.

$200 is equivalent to what, more than 5 billion gold if you buy from other sites? Or, if you use the trick mentioned earlier, it's what, like 2.8 billion?

Would you pay 2.8 billion gold for 10% extra MS? Knowing that you're losing EH in the process?
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It would take me exactly 200 USD from where I am right now to do it, 466 AR, 300k unbuffed DPS, 525k EHP without amethyst.

Really tempted to pull the trigger right now.

$200 is equivalent to what, more than 5 billion gold if you buy from other sites? Or, if you use the trick mentioned earlier, it's what, like 2.8 billion?

Would you pay 2.8 billion gold for 10% extra MS? Knowing that you're losing EH in the process?


Hmmm, when you put it like that dropping OWE actually sounds bad! LOL
Edited by Shade#6905 on 3/20/2013 11:00 AM PDT
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I'm just going to say one thing. If u don't have the gold or money...which is a Ton to gear right to not use OWE or just enjoy playing. Its not worth it.
If u have the gold and funds. Go for it. I've seen monks with over 200k dps with OWE. I personally would rather have that extra passive.
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IMO OWE gives way more bang for the buck than other passives and the EHP/DPS gain (cheaper, easier to obtain gear) is far greater than any other passive.

10% runspeed vs 200+ AR? 2 spirit regen vs 200+ AR? Monk passives are so bad it just isn't worth giving up for something else unless you get to a point where your gear is so godly it would only give you a pretty small amount of AR.

In my mind it's not even a question that needs to be asked. If they make monk passives better and I may agree that it's worth getting rid of but for now, unless you have GODLY gear it's not worth dropping.
Edited by Karandor#1872 on 3/20/2013 11:46 AM PDT
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WTF is OWE????
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03/20/2013 12:21 PMPosted by Theudys
WTF is OWE????


DDK UJO WOL HIP!? *pushes glasses up nose*

.
.
.

PS: One With Everything ;)
Edited by nthexwn#1102 on 3/20/2013 12:32 PM PDT
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I don't know enough about the cookie cutter builds (nor do I care really), but what I have never understood is why if someone isn't spamming overawe, they don't use submission. What am I missing here? I get the additional 12% damage dealt, but is it just the fact that the extra 12% is active damage vs 18% passive damage (spiky vs steady)?

Unspammed Overawe is better than unspammed Submission by more than you might think (and it sounds like you don't think it's better, period). The reason is that Submission's AOE isn't affected by the haste modifier on your primary attack. Also, it doesn't affect the tornado damage you do. Unless you're wading into incredibly dense areas, Overawe is a winner. And Submission's range is small enough that it's very, very hard to make up the difference.
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Dropping OWE is like quitting smoking. The best way to quit is to never start.

Dropping STI is like... being a nudist?
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03/20/2013 12:31 PMPosted by nthexwn
WTF is OWE????


DDK UJO WOL HIP!? *pushes glasses up nose*

.
.
.

PS: One With Everything ;)


Thnx dude :)
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03/20/2013 12:47 PMPosted by Vrkhyz
Unspammed Overawe is better than unspammed Submission by more than you might think (and it sounds like you don't think it's better, period). The reason is that Submission's AOE isn't affected by the haste modifier on your primary attack. Also, it doesn't affect the tornado damage you do. Unless you're wading into incredibly dense areas, Overawe is a winner. And Submission's range is small enough that it's very, very hard to make up the difference.


That answers my question actually. So really it is things like cyclone damage, AOE damage, etc that truly shine with overawe as compared to Submission. I am assuming that even spamming cyclone strike (like I do) will not make up this damage because the number of enemies dragged into my AOE will not make up for the additional damage lost by my cyclone. That makes all the sense in the world. Thanks!
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The general argument for dropping OwE when it comes to gear is that it allows you to get better rolls (more dps rolls?) in place of the double stacked resists. This argument is 100% incorrect.

Lets take a look and see whether this is really true or not. Heres the amount of random affixes BiS items typically have:

Head - mempo = 1, radiance = 2
Shoulder - BOA = 5, VW = 2
Amulet - BOA = 5, Rare = 6
Chest - BOA = 5, Inna's = 1, Tal's = 2, BT's = 2
Gloves - BOA = 5, Rare = 6, T&T = 2
Bracers - BOA = 5, Lacuni's = 3
Belt - WH = 3, Inna's = 1, Rare = 6
Pants - Inna's = 1, BT's = 2, Rare = 6
Ring - Nat's = 3, Litany = 1, HF = 4, SOJ = 0, Unity = 1, Rare = 6
Boots - Nat's = 1, Zuni's = 2, IC's = 3

I'm sure most people would consider BOA stuff BiS, and beyond that WH, Temperance, Reflection, and Bloody Footprings too.

That leaves head and your 2nd ring up for debate only. And maybe chest still too.

Lets take a look at the items we're talking about though:

Mempo vs. Radiance = 1 vs. 2 affixes
BOA Shoulders= 5 affixes
BOA Amulet = 5 affixes
BOA vs. Inna's vs. Tal's = 5 vs. 1 vs. 2 affixes
BOA Gloves = 5 affixes
BOA Bracers = 5 affixes
WH = 3 affixes
Temperance = 1 affix
Reflection = 3 affixes
Litany vs. Rare vs. HF vs. Unity = 1 vs. 6 vs. 4 vs. 1 affixes
Footprints = 1 affix

Now we can examine each slot closer...

Mempo comes with dex+ias+life%+ar+os meaning the ONLY stat worth choosing here is CC. So double stacking is out. Radiance comes with Dex, Vit, CC, and OS. Meaning the last two affixes become choices from Vit, Life%, AR, a 2nd resist, and less desired stacks like SR, LPSS, and FoT/SW dmg. At the highest of gear levels AR + Life% is arguably the best possible combination of rolls. But given the other choices, 60 AR is less valuable than Vit or Life%.

We'll use rolling Dex shoulders as an example. We would ideally then want vit, dex+vit, ar, life%. That DOES leave one affix open for double resist, although an argument for stats like PUR or Chance to Chill on Hit too.

On Dex amulets you want IAS, CC, and CD. After that theres two rolls to divvy up between AD, Vit, Life%, AR, and double res. Again I would argue ideally one would NOT contain a 2nd resist.

For chests, its fairly straightforward too. Inna's and Tal's both benefit far more from rolling Vit compared to AR. Tal's potentially has the option of both though, if you sacrifice Dex. BOA Dex chests are the only one remotely worth considering for double resists. For them you would want these rolls - vit, dex+vit, 3os, life%, and either elite DR, lps, a second resist, or AR. Since the most dangerous enemies in the game ARE elites, I'd argue that 7% eDR is more valuable than 60 ar. But I suppose thats mildly debatable. We also know that 80 > 60 so if you want two resist rolls that means giving up one of Vit/Dex+Vit/3os/Life%. Hardly worth it.

For gloves, we want/need IAS+CC+CD. The last two rolls desired would be Vit and AR. So no room for double stacking.

With bracers, we reach one of the best slots to actually double stack. Here you only need Vit, Dex+Vit, AR, and CC. Actually, this becomes the same situation shoulders put us in. Choosing between 60 AR, PUR, and Ranged/Melee DR instead of on hit Chill. Whether you want/need any PUR is up to you, but so far shoulder or bracer are the only slots worth considering a 2nd resist roll in.

Witching Hour has 3 rolls. It comes with Int, CD, and IAS. That leaves us with Dex or Dex+/Vit, AR, and Life% ideally. You'll mostly likely spend an arm and leg to get one though. Alternatively, you can get a far cheaper one with just a 2ndary resist. But you still won't want to sacrifice an affix for double stacking. Vit and life% are more valuable than 60 AR generally.

Inna's pants have one roll. You either want dex/vit or vit here. The ONLY way AR Temperances are competitive EHP wise with Vit rolled ones, is if you use amethysts instead of emeralds in the sockets. But then you lose EHP and DPS from losing Dex. So its never worth it getting AR here. And the possibility with 1 affix to use double resist is nonexistent.

Reflection rings come with Dex, IAS, LPS, and 3 affixes. The most valuable obviously is CC. DPS wise you could spend all 3 on AD, CD, and CC. But it's probably better overall to drop either AD or CD for AR. Obviously with such a large amount of dps potentially coming from one slot, stacking 2 resists here is not worth what you'd be losing.

For the other ring slot, Litany and Unity are out since they both only have 1 affix. That leaves HF and rare rings. The former has 4 while the latter has 6. Ideal ring stats are AD, AR, IAS, CD, CC. Obviously HF have to choose 4 of these, while rares can roll all 5 + a secondary resist. But to do so, you either have to sacrifice a dps roll already listed, or being will to not have Dex on it. A loss either way.

For boots, Bloody Footprints only have 1 roll. You COULD double stack here. And this would probably be the most likely place to suggest it, because the best roll for this item clearly is Dex+Vit which run you over 2B easily if you're looking at 270+ 80+ pairs.

So that leaves us with 3 potential slots out of 11, that could be used to double stack resists without sacrificing MORE EHP, or dps.

That means OWE AT MOST is worth 180 AR.

Perhaps the conversation shouldn't be about whether OWE is worth it or not, but whether it's more worth using than STI. Because most monks have less than 3.6k Dexterity.
Edited by gotaplanstan#1369 on 3/20/2013 3:00 PM PDT
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Anyone can spend a lot of money and be one of the best, but where's the fun in that. I earned everything in game and even decline free gold by people who buy it, because it's like blood money to me lol.

I have a lot of fun with my build and I think that if you are using OWE or Serenity, you're doing it wrong.

I've never been more fast or had so mych fun until I realized the skorn and low MP was where it's at: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#bcXdSQ!bdc!YZbaYZ

OP, quite whining, you sound like my girlfriend.
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Lets take a look and see whether this is really true or not. Heres the amount of random affixes BiS items typically have

Yep, and also consider the way that items roll (prefix > suffix > prefix > suffix) so getting an optimal roll, especially on legendary items, may not be possible.
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