Diablo® III

Worth Dropping OWE now?

Just a question here, why ES and not the 7 min mantra passive? if you are looking for spirit regain I'd think the 2 spirit/sec would be a bit better than the 1... or is it due to the 100 extra spirit?

Not trying to be an smartbutt, just wondering is all


Shade's APS & skill selection allow him to gain tons of spirits within a very short time, he needs a bigger spirit bank.
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Many people choose to rid themselves of OWE earlier rather than later, which is a smart choice. As Shade has shown us, the longer you wait to gear out of it, the more you'll end up paying the closer to the top you get.

Okay, I've been staying on the sidelines long enough and I feel a strong urge to contribute here -- I've been on a self-imposed D3 forum fast for a while, but I think it's almost time for me to lift it. :) I don't understand this statement. As far as I'm concerned, it costs the same to gear out of OWE no matter when you decide to do it, and in fact, it would be better to gear out of OWE later than sooner. Here are some of my thoughts:

(1) AR/Vit/Life% gear costs the same to a non-OWE monk than an OWE monk. This point should be obvious and should not need any further clarification.

(2) OWE allows players to gear to higher DPS/EHP levels more cheaply than non-OWE monks. While it is true that it is cheaper to transition to non-OWE monks at a lower DPS/EHP level, the costs to upgrade to a higher DPS tier (without sacrifice to EHP) will be significantly higher for a non-OWE monk vs an OWE monk.

(3) When you consider opportunity costs, deciding to go non-OWE earlier means being stuck at lower DPS/EHP levels for longer (because of point #2 above). I would guesstimate that a 140K DPS OWE monk will have gear that would be be valued similarly to a 100K DPS non-OWE monk. Likewise, a 175K DPS OWE monk will likely cost the same as a 130K DPS non-OWE monk (holding all other things equal such as EHP & sustain). Again, no evidence of that, but I'm sure you can agree that two monks at 200K DPS with similar EHP/sustain levels -- one with OWE and non-OWE, the cost of non-OWE monk >>>>>> cost of OWE monk.

(4) Being able to play at a higher DPS/EHP level (for an OWE monk) will allow these monks to increase the expected value of their drops on a per session basis. This is to account for the fact that running higher DPS/EHP monks will generally allow for faster clears and more drops, and higher probability for quality drops than lower DPS/EHP monks. I use "expected value" to account for the unpredictable nature of RNG, and the idea that "it all evens out in the end".

Bear in mind, that my thoughts/arguments are coming from someone who does not (1) AH flip or (2) RMAH, so the grind is an important factor and thus, the expected value of drops per session matters to me. For those that AH flip or RMAH, any points about grind is moot as you are not nearly as dependent on drops for progression than someone who does not.

With these arguments, it does not make any sense to me that it costs a monk more to gear out of OWE at a higher DPS level than at a lower DPS level. If anything, using OWE will allow any monk to get to the higher DPS level cheaper (and thus, faster) and give that monk the option of gearing out of OWE more palatable, as the probability of getting a more godly drop would seem to be higher when you are playing at a higher level.

Is my logic flawed? As far as I am concerned, I am committed to getting to a much higher DPS level (without sacrifice to EHP) with OWE unless someone can convince me to switch otherwise (or I get a godly drop that gives me a huge influx of gold into my account).
Edited by Nameless#1537 on 3/21/2013 8:31 PM PDT
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@Nameless

While I agree to most of the things you mentioned, I beg to differ on the following:
03/21/2013 08:21 PMPosted by Nameless
OWE allows players to gear to higher DPS/EHP levels more cheaply than non-OWE monks


High EHP, yes, high DPS not really.
take a look at a typical vileward. it is designed to packed with EHP. with 2 RNG on it if one to roll SR & Dex+Vit (that boost dex beyond the 200 boundary) vs a Dex+Vit + (Vit/Life%) certainly the SR roll is cheaper.
the bracer slot is ok to roll SR+AR as it lacks of other essential stats to fit the +6RNG (dex/cc/dex+vit/AR/dex+vit/[free slot])
the glove, +6 RNG would be CC/CD/IAS/dex/AR/[free slot]
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@yuhhaur

I recognize you are not arguing against my main point, but I just wanted clarify what I mean by DPS/EHP... I am trying to indicate that I see DPS & EHP as a package, not to be separated when looking at the whole monk. So if I compare two monks, both at 500K EHP, and both at 200K DPS, the OWE monk will be far cheaper than the non-OWE monk. I'm not worried about how each of them get there specifically - as there is likely a lot of mixing and matching of different EHP stats (vit, life%, resists, armor, other modifiers).

But a side point that comes to mind when talking about EHP, is that as you increase EHP, the way in which an OWE monk and a non-OWE monk would arrive at the same EHP value would likely have a slightly different way of doing it. I think a non-OWE monk would likely be hard pressed (not impossible, but hard/expensive) to be able to maintain 200K DPS while maintaining 600K EHP & ~500 AR (when you consider how many slots you would ideally want to get AR), while an OWE monk would be able to quite able to maintain ~700 AR. Beyond that, it'd be simply a matter of increasing HP... but the effectiveness of each HP would be higher for a OWE monk than a non-OWE monk due to higher mitigation levels (not by that much, but something), which also means more effective sustain and in the end lead to higher effective DPS.

I recognize my side point doesn't address what you posted, but it's something I think worth considering too.

Bottom line: I still have difficulty seeing how it makes sense to phase out OWE at "lower" DPS levels (anything under 200K paper DPS, let's say) for an average non-AH-flipping non-RMAH grinding-for-drops monk where cost of gear is a very real & limiting factor.
Edited by Nameless#1537 on 3/21/2013 10:04 PM PDT
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(2) OWE allows players to gear to higher DPS/EHP levels more cheaply than non-OWE monks. While it is true that it is cheaper to transition to non-OWE monks at a lower DPS/EHP level, the costs to upgrade to a higher DPS tier (without sacrifice to EHP) will be significantly higher for a non-OWE monk vs an OWE monk.

Some people think in terms of cost/item, others (like myself) think in terms of efficiency/item. And as I outlined in my last post, secondary resits are NOT as efficient. 80 > 60 last I checked. Affix inefficiency aside, that's not even considering the fact you have to give up a passive slot to be less efficient lol.

(3) When you consider opportunity costs, deciding to go non-OWE earlier means being stuck at lower DPS/EHP levels for longer (because of point #2 above). I would guesstimate that a 140K DPS OWE monk will have gear that would be be valued similarly to a 100K DPS non-OWE monk. Likewise, a 175K DPS OWE monk will likely cost the same as a 130K DPS non-OWE monk (holding all other things equal such as EHP & sustain). Again, no evidence of that, but I'm sure you can agree that two monks at 200K DPS with similar EHP/sustain levels -- one with OWE and non-OWE, the cost of non-OWE monk >>>>>> cost of OWE monk.

Cost to quality of items has more to do with how good of a shopper 2 people are, than anything else. I'm sure if someone were to guess my monk's value, for instance, they would generally over-estimate.

(4) Being able to play at a higher DPS/EHP level (for an OWE monk) will allow these monks to increase the expected value of their drops on a per session basis. This is to account for the fact that running higher DPS/EHP monks will generally allow for faster clears and more drops, and higher probability for quality drops than lower DPS/EHP monks. I use "expected value" to account for the unpredictable nature of RNG, and the idea that "it all evens out in the end".

That may be true, but the monk who is OWE free will have more skill+rune and passive flexibility allowing them typically to achieve higher levels of edps/ehp given the same paper values. Obviously the value, freeing oneself from OWE, is more if you play in a group setting but it's still there when soloing too.

Is my logic flawed? As far as I am concerned, I am committed to getting to a much higher DPS level (without sacrifice to EHP) with OWE unless someone can convince me to switch otherwise (or I get a godly drop that gives me a huge influx of gold into my account).

The problem with that logic, is how it pertains to a group. When you are forced to use OWE you not only cost yourself edps/ehp, but your group as well. If you join a group with a monk, a wizard, and a barb, and the other monk already has Overawe up, what are you going to do? You can't use TON+GL without sacrificing CS which costs both self and group dps. So you're stuck running Transgression. Great, you're still contributing to the group, but now you have no spirit dump so you're sitting at 150 for most of the game which is edps going to waste. This is the same reason Serenity is labeled as a crutch too, because it prevents a person from running skills which contribute to group play like Flesh is Weak or Implosion.

A great example of this (MY logic) in action, was yesterday when Sin, Bumbly, Bane, and myself were in a group. I begrudgingly (and quietly! I'm not one to complain...LOL) had to drop CS to pick up GL (along with TON obviously) since they already had Overawe and Trans covered, when I joined the group (Bane wasn't on yet at that point). While my pdps stayed the same changing CS out for GL, my opportunity cost edps dropped because I had to choose 1 out of 2. But then when Bane joined the group, since she isn't gimped (like I am atm...FML) by OWE, she was able to pick up TON+GL freeing me up to take HT and get CS back. My pdps didn't change, but our overall group edps increased, because I didn't have to choose between CS and GL anymore (I had both, thanks to Bane being OWE-free).

---
TL;DR = skills/passives have opportunity cost just like items do, and the quantity Serenity and OWE make you give them up at, quite frankly, to min/maxes is NOT worth it. You may pay extra, but it 100% IS worth doing so.
Edited by gotaplanstan#1369 on 3/21/2013 10:36 PM PDT
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03/21/2013 09:57 PMPosted by Nameless
So if I compare two monks, both at 500K EHP, and both at 200K DPS, the OWE monk will be far cheaper than the non-OWE monk


This is an unfair comparison since owe monks are tied to having one less passive than non owe monks... Non owe runs quicker , hit more bells, have more survival skills wise etc...
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@Gotaplanstan

Ok, lets keep this civil, there are a few holes in your arguments.

1. You cannot compare 80 AR to 60 sec resist and say that it is inefficient. The point Piffle and Nameless where making is that OWE allows you to double stack on slots like bracers/shoulders where you wont lose anything.

Also it is much cheaper to get sec resists on slots like gloves/amulets/rings/WHs etc, the difference between sec resist and AR is astronomical, at high level gear, the same glove with 50 sec resist and 50 AR can be 10 times difference in price. like 200M and 2B.

As you can see, my nats ring is about 200M, guess how much a similar ring with AR would cost? I would say easily more then 1B, and it isnt even available in the AH as we speak.

2. Your group play scenario doesnt apply to everyone, not everyone plays with 4 monks permanently. So what if you have OWE and STI tied up? You dont have to take CS AND GL together, just a little tweak in skills will do.

Even if someone else is running overawe, you can go ToN+GL, take FoT, EP, BW, ToN, CS, BF/Serenity and still be useful, no one is forcing you to go double generators CS route.

Calling Serenity and OWE crutches is just wrong, just because it applies to you doesnt meant it applies to everyone here. I play solo all the time, I need serenity in high MPs because I dont have warcries/4 mantras/ etc on me all the time. I take OWE because it allows me to reach this level of EHP and DPS with cheaper.

There are advantages to dropping OWE, or I wouldnt be planning for this. But your premise that OWE and Serenity are crutches are false.

Look, I know you have SUPER DUPER MONK FRIENDS and run MP10 all the time, but that doesnt meant I do, or everyone else does. Like I said, everyone plays this game but for different reasons and derive enjoyment different, dont use your own Perfection to judge others.
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03/22/2013 01:57 AMPosted by Shade
1. You cannot compare 80 AR to 60 sec resist and say that it is inefficient. The point Piffle and Nameless where making is that OWE allows you to double stack on slots like bracers/shoulders where you wont lose anything.

Yeah that's true, but like I outlined in one of the my previous posts, is only efficient (or lacks inefficiency to be completely accurate) in THREE slots.

03/22/2013 01:57 AMPosted by Shade
2. Your group play scenario doesnt apply to everyone, not everyone plays with 4 monks permanently. So what if you have OWE and STI tied up? You dont have to take CS AND GL together, just a little tweak in skills will do.

I know that. But I also know the person (Nameless) I was addressing normally does (since normally he's playing with Bane, Kamel, and myself LOL).

03/22/2013 01:57 AMPosted by Shade
Even if someone else is running overawe, you can go ToN+GL, take FoT, EP, BW, ToN, CS, BF/Serenity and still be useful, no one is forcing you to go double generators CS route.

I know nobody is forcing you to, but you can't deny by choosing certain defensive skills over offensive (which also potentially benefit more than just yourself) that you are in fact losing self/group dps potential, and for nothing but lack of willing to spend money.

03/22/2013 01:57 AMPosted by Shade
Calling Serenity and OWE crutches is just wrong, just because it applies to you doesnt meant it applies to everyone here. I play solo all the time, I need serenity in high MPs because I dont have warcries/4 mantras/ etc on me all the time. I take OWE because it allows me to reach this level of EHP and DPS with cheaper.

Well, that has to do with gearing philosophy. Ever since I was dps able to handle MP10 (read: non ubers, still haven't tried soloing them on ANY MP lvl lol) I've also strived to maintain enough sustain + mitigation to not need Serenity. I have always felt it's a crutch, because I've always found its ONLY use to be countering frozen. (this is where our POV differs) Because I prefer (and almost always am) playing in groups, losing dps uptime is less detrimental than if you're soloing. But at the same time, it hasn't stopped me from doing 90-200 second MP10 crypt clears solo, depending on affixes. Frozen is definitely one of my least favorite affixes, but I'd rather complain about it while not using Serenity, than waste a whole skill slot just to combat ONE affix. And I've always felt, that it's also more cost effective if you are going to use one skill to combat Frozen, to use Pacifism instead.

03/22/2013 01:57 AMPosted by Shade
Look, I know you have SUPER DUPER MONK FRIENDS and run MP10 all the time, but that doesnt meant I do, or everyone else does. Like I said, everyone plays this game but for different reasons and derive enjoyment different, dont use your own Perfection to judge others.

I know, and I hope people who are actually bothering to read this whole thread can distinguish the fact that the only thing I'm arguing in terms of being ANTI OWE is that from an efficiency standpoint it's ABSOLUTELY AWFUL. That part of the equation of Diablo aside, like you say the MOST important thing is to have fun. Sometimes that even includes running A4 on normal because its too scurry XD coughcoughmecoughcough

And aren't I the hypocrite atm anyways? Using OWE myself lol... but hopefully that will change sooner than later :p
Edited by gotaplanstan#1369 on 3/22/2013 2:25 AM PDT
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I'm a little confused by one thing. Even if Shade had started down the AR path earlier, wouldn't the same awesome piece of AR gear still cost the same amount of gold? I don't understand how starting earlier would make things cheaper overall, unless the idea is that Shade would have a nicer piece of gear to flip now--one that would retain more of its resale value because of its AR.
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03/22/2013 04:35 AMPosted by Vrkhyz
I'm a little confused by one thing. Even if Shade had started down the AR path earlier, wouldn't the same awesome piece of AR gear still cost the same amount of gold? I don't understand how starting earlier would make things cheaper overall, unless the idea is that Shade would have a nicer piece of gear to flip now--one that would retain more of its resale value because of its AR.

It wouldn't from that perspective, but it would from the efficiency to money spent aspect from an earlier point. Thus making him perform more efficiently for a longer period of his playtime.

I'm not really arguing pricing at all, I agree that OWE IS cheaper gold/$ wise. But from an affix efficiency or opportunity cost (both item and skill/passive) standpoint? No way, not even close.
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Some people think in terms of cost/item, others (like myself) think in terms of efficiency/item. And as I outlined in my last post, secondary resits are NOT as efficient. 80 > 60 last I checked. Affix inefficiency aside, that's not even considering the fact you have to give up a passive slot to be less efficient lol.

Personally, I look at cost/effectiveness for the overall set. A well constructed monk is like a finely tuned machine, where each item / slot would be designed to "make up" for deficiencies in other slots. While it would be dumb for me to argue against your 80 > 60 logic, I would posit that cost / resist point is greater for AR than it is for an elemental resist item. I would take a guess that if you were to replace the 60LR ro 60AR on my WH, as an example, it would likely be valued at much higher than 40M, and the effectiveness of the resist on my EHP would be the same... except it's costing me a passive. More on that later.

Cost to quality of items has more to do with how good of a shopper 2 people are, than anything else. I'm sure if someone were to guess my monk's value, for instance, they would generally over-estimate.

Likewise for me, I would guess. Regardless, I'm talking about a hypothetical situation where those two monks are run by people who have similar ideas about valuation and ability to score great deals on AH. I'm just talking about it on balance.

That may be true, but the monk who is OWE free will have more skill+rune and passive flexibility allowing them typically to achieve higher levels of edps/ehp given the same paper values. Obviously the value, freeing oneself from OWE, is more if you play in a group setting but it's still there when soloing too.

I think this is the difference between cost and value. For me, I'm talking about cost because as I mentioned earlier, it is my primary limiting factor since I have no other source of income for upgrades (my choice). In your argument, you are talking about you much you value going OWE free for the sake of a group which I totally get. But I guess it becomes a question of value vs. cost. When you have the gold, you get the luxury to choose. When you are constricted by gold, that luxury kind of disappears, and you are staring at cost in the face. That's what I'm getting at.

For the build I am using, my 3rd passive is essentially free that I use for extra sustain that can be used for anything I wish. I choose to increase my survivability for the sake of my party, but with that said, if I was called upon to do MoH/GL, I'd be glad to do it and it would likely make little impact on me in my gameplay.

03/21/2013 10:42 PMPosted by Immortal
This is an unfair comparison since owe monks are tied to having one less passive than non owe monks... Non owe runs quicker , hit more bells, have more survival skills wise etc...

How is it an unfair comparison? I'm comparing costs. Going back to my value vs. cost argument, it's about how much you value that freedom to do all of those things you are saying. If you value that freedom so much that you are willing to pay a lot of extra gold for it, that's your choice if you have the gold to spend. But if your limiting factor is cost because you have no other source of income and you have limited gold, then it's an absolutely fair comparison because quite frankly it's a comparison I make every single time I check for items in AH and when I can't find a LR item, I see if I can find an AR item for a decent cost. And guess what? For a quality item, AR roll is more expensive than LR and all other stats being held equal. Go figure. :P

And back to GAPS argument about group contribution, I would posit this: If choosing to go OWE free means that you gimp your DPS by ~30% (arbitrary number -- I use this number based on how much I saw GAPS DPS increase after he chose to re-adopt for OWE... I think I saw his paper DPS increase from 110K to 140K or something like that), you are actually doing your group a disservice by even playing in that same group. In fact, with this break that I have recently taken from D3, I feel that my normal playing group has progressed without me to the point that I'm not sure if I have enough to remain in this group, but that's another question for another time. :) My point is that boosting your monk's overall effectiveness in terms of DPS/EHP would also benefit the group as a whole, especially if you are running ubers. I had the personal experience of sucking wind when doing MP10 ubers in a group recently (was I playing with you GAPS?) and I just kept dying. I felt horrible because even if I was "contributing" the group with a great passive, how useful is that if I kept dying?

Oh, how I miss this game. Can't wait for Saturday night to roll around. :)
Edited by Nameless#1537 on 3/22/2013 5:41 AM PDT
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It's funny how you talk about not having money to drop OWE, and yet every time we play you have more money than me lol...
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Oh and silly, since you're using WoL you should swap your weapons around.
You want highest weapon damage in MH :p
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03/22/2013 05:34 AMPosted by gotaplanstan
It's funny how you talk about not having money to drop OWE, and yet every time we play you have more money than me lol...


Oh and silly, since you're using WoL you should swap your weapons around.
You want highest weapon damage in MH :p

I'm assuming you are directing those comments at me. Yes, I might have more but I've also been saving and trying to maximize effectiveness of gold spent (in terms of my DPS/EHP combination). I'm constantly weighing the relative benefits of going AR vs. LR against making overall DPS/EHP progress in my monk, and the cost to buy similar quality AR gear is prohibited to me by cost. I guess for me, I value moving up the DPS/EHP ranks than going OWE free. And at this point, I'm just saving to get me a decent skorn and accompanying substitutes to my gloves and nats ring to non-IAS gear, to try out 2h play to start trying different builds. :)

And I think my MH weapon has higher weapon damage than my OH, doesn't it? 967 DPS MH vs 930 DPS OH (both have same APS). And the ChD in my OH weapon is part of the crit hit damage calculation for both weapons, no?

Okay, I'm gonna try to go back into hiding for now as I prepare to head into work. Counting down the next 36 hours. :)
Edited by Nameless#1537 on 3/22/2013 5:58 AM PDT
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And I think my MH weapon has higher weapon damage than my OH, doesn't it? 967 DPS MH vs 930 DPS OH (both have same APS). And the ChD in my OH weapon is part of the crit hit damage calculation for both weapons, n

Ah yeah the average is higher nvm. I guess the old higher top end weapon in MH mentality from way back when I played WoW still hasn't completely left me ><
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Because the cap of secondary resists is 20 less than AR, that means you need it from more sources to achieve the same result. That means for people with ANYTHING less than an unlimited budget, giving up dps rolls potentially.

No. No. No.

Once again, look at my gear. Look at Shade's gear. We are using OwE - what DPS slots have we given up because of stacking double resist?

The answer to that is - none. Zero.

People keep repeating this as a mark against OwE and it is simply not true.

Look at Shade's gear, look at my gear ... heck, look at your own gear. Where are you giving up DPS rolls to double stack? Your bracers? No. Your boots? Well, you're missing the high dex/vit roll, but those boots cost 200+ mill, while ones like yours cost 5 mil (last I checked, anyway).

Are you using the double stacked boots because with them you're at 641 resist and you feel like being at 602 is too low? Or are you using them because you can't afford the better ones?

If you try to get to 600 AR from single stacking both with AND without OWE, you'll find yourself needing it on EVERY non weapon slot for OWE almost. Unless you get perfect 60 rolls, then you have ONE slot free! maybe two if your INT is high enough. With AR rolls, you're looking at 7 max rolls + INT. Usually though, it's a saving of 2-3 affixes.

Not only does using OWE require more total affixes to accomplish the same result, it also requires a passive to do so.

Ok, here's the thing. If you got 80 AR on every slot, you'd have 880 AR. This is obviously more than you need.

If you got 60 Cold Res on every slot, you'd have 660 AR. This is also more than you need.

This is important to note because even if you used just a particular resist instead of AR in every single one of your slots ... you'd still have more resist than you need. But people don't gear that way, do they. They're getting a high AR roll on their Shoulders and Boots. If you got 75 AR on just your shoulders and boots and an easily reachable 45 singular resist on everything else ... you'd be at 555 AR before adding in Intelligence. This is, again, more than enough resist.

Everyone says you only need 500 AR if you drop OwE. This means you only need 500 AR if you use OwE too.

It is insanely easy to hit this number using a combination of high AR rolls in a couple spots and "substandard" singular resist everywhere else.

It's called a crutch because it lets you accomplish something sub-optimally. Just because it saves you money doesn't change the fact that it's inefficient from a min/maxing standpoint compared to the alternative.

I'd argue this isn't true. Here's why:

We already know that double stacking resist does not cost you any DPS rolls. So the only way for this "sub-optimal" gearing approach to negatively affect you is that, due to the lower resist rolls, you'd need to have a resist in more places - places that would either lead to lower overall EH (e.g. 80 AR vs 200 Vit on Inna's pants) or would take the spot of a DPS roll.

Let's look at your gear again.

You are using OwE and have double stacked resist in just one place - your boots. You're at 641 resist. But you went the vit route with your pants, the dex/vit route with your chest, and your gloves are basically pure DPS.

To me, it looks like using OwE isn't holding you back. You were able to get better EH in the slots where you have one random roll (chest, pants) instead of needing a resist roll there. You were able to sacrifice the glove slot completely in terms of EH. And you're still far enough over the 'minimum' resist number that you could even drop the phys res in the one place you have it double stacked.

It's clearly not negatively affecting you.

Is it possible that you've been positively affected by using OwE? Let's look at what it would take for you to gear away from OwE.

You'd immediately lose 126 resist which would you drop you to 515 ... still over the minimum number. Why are you using OwE? /confused

Let's look at a better example - me. I'm currently logged out in what I would consider my uber gear (well, outside of the gem in my hat).

With this gear I'm at 634 resist, 64 from int, 272 from cold res, and 298 from all res.

Let's first look at the places I've double stacked - shoulders and boots. I'm getting 78 resist from the cold resist there, so if I opted to go with a different pair of crafted shoulders and a 200 mill+ nats boots, I would still be at 556 resist. This is still higher than the 'minimum' of 500, so it is not the resist that is holding me back.

Let's look at other places where I've had to decide between AR or Vit in terms of EH - chest and pants. I've gone the vitality route which is more EH, so you can see that it's not holding me back there either.

My HF ring, similar to your gloves, is a pure DPS slot.

Which means the only argument for how OwE is a crutch for me is that I need it on more slots to make up for the fact that it rolls lower. In other words, the argument is that if I had 80 AR rolls in 6 spots, I'd have ~500 AR, whereas I would need singular resist in 8 slots to hit that same number.

Of course, the main problem with this argument is that:
I can roll double stacked resists on shoulders/bracers without losing any DPS stats and, on the shoulders only losing 1 EH roll. This means that I can hit that 8 number only using 6 slots, which means I'm really not losing anything. This also allows me to get a particular resist on an item like my WH and Ammy, which is much cheaper.

In fact, I challenge you to find a WH in the AH with 90+ d, 90+ v, 9/40+, and 45+ AR. Is there one? How expensive is it? Can you find an amulet with 35+ avg dmg, 100+ d, 100+ v, 9+ CC, CD, and 40+ AR? How expensive is it?

Here's the thing - if I take two rolls on my bracers and that enables me to get a 90/90 9/40 WH as opposed to a 70/70 8/40 WH ... am I suffering from the "crutch" that is OwE? Or if I take two rolls on my shoulders and that allows me to get vit instead of AR on my pants/chest ... am I suffering from the "crutch" that is OwE?

The way that I see it, not only does OwE allow you to get better stats for your budget, but it also increases your flexibility with gearing. And not just in the sense of "Well I can get a WH with cold resist instead of AR" - in the sense that I can put more resists on pieces that are generally EH only slots (shoulders, bracers, boots, etc) which allows me to get better rolls elsewhere.

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I'm going to be honest, the only way anyone is going to convince me that OwE leads to less flexibility with gear is if they go through the AH and put together a set in D3up.com for both non-OwE and OwE. Do this twice - the first time through, use the same budget for each set, see what you end up with stat-wise. The second time, aim for certain stat points (i.e. 200k dps, 600 EH or something like that) for each set and record how much it costs to get there.

I have 50 million that says, in both cases, the OwE set will be better. Well, assuming you do this properly and don't try to skew the results :P
Edited by Piffle#1874 on 3/22/2013 7:13 AM PDT
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Oh and silly, since you're using WoL you should swap your weapons around.
You want highest weapon damage in MH :p

Not always true.
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No. No. No.

Once again, look at my gear. Look at Shade's gear. We are using OwE - what DPS slots have we given up because of stacking double resist?

The answer to that is - none. Zero.

Actually, theres a couple places you sacrificed (whether intentional or not) dps for CR:

-shoulders, could've been dex or dex/vit roll instead
-amulet, you could've got IAS instead

And your boots are the ONLY slot where getting CR instead (or in addition to) of AR isn't actually that bad. You see, lower AR rolls (like my helm) actually AREN'T more expensive than their secondary res counterparts. My helm? ONE million gold.

03/22/2013 07:09 AMPosted by Piffle
Are you using the double stacked boots because with them you're at 641 resist and you feel like being at 602 is too low? Or are you using them because you can't afford the better ones?

Neither. I'm using them because I haven't found a satisfactory cost efficient replacement yet, since I started looking to gear out of OWE.

Ok, here's the thing. If you got 80 AR on every slot, you'd have 880 AR. This is obviously more than you need.

If you got 60 Cold Res on every slot, you'd have 660 AR. This is also more than you need.

Thats the wrong way of thinking of it lol. If you want to compare them equally to each other, than you compare how many slots it takes to achieve the SAME total. So if you want to talk max rolls, it takes OWE users 11 slots, meanwhile it only takes non OWE users 9 slots (but most likely 8, due to inherent INT making up the extra 20 missing AR).

We already know that double stacking resist does not cost you any DPS rolls.

Reread post #78. It actually DOES cost you dps. You can look at the affixes on the stinkin Game Guide to see this... its really just simple math lol.

03/22/2013 07:09 AMPosted by Piffle
You are using OwE and have double stacked resist in just one place - your boots. You're at 641 resist. But you went the vit route with your pants, the dex/vit route with your chest, and your gloves are basically pure DPS.

Except I have PR res on my bracers, amulet, and boots still. And I'm not comfortable dropping that much AR and trying to play MP10 without Serenity. So there's some upgrades yet to make (like higher AR reflection, Vit Footprints, Vit Bracers) to compensate for the EHP loss there.

03/22/2013 07:09 AMPosted by Piffle
You'd immediately lose 126 resist which would you drop you to 515 ... still over the minimum number. Why are you using OwE? /confused

Um no. There's no "minimum number" for AR. If you want to put a tag on something, put it on minimum total damage reduction %. In that case, I would say to survive MP10 comfortably without using Serenity, you would want around 90.5-91%. I am currently at 91.13% last I checked.

03/22/2013 07:09 AMPosted by Piffle
In fact, I challenge you to find a WH in the AH with 90+ d, 90+ v, 9/40+, and 45+ AR. Is there one? How expensive is it? Can you find an amulet with 35+ avg dmg, 100+ d, 100+ v, 9+ CC, CD, and 40+ AR? How expensive is it?

That's one of the only items I'm not very familiar with pricing wise, because there has been no time yet where I can afford to drop the amount of EHP that rare belts offer. Perhaps when I finally craft some decent Vit shoulders and bracers I'll take a look. But until then, I'm not really going to think about getting one, or attempting to pretend that I know what is or isn't a good value for ANY type of WH.

'm going to be honest, the only way anyone is going to convince me that OwE leads to less flexibility with gear is if they go through the AH and put together a set in D3up.com for both non-OwE and OwE. Do this twice - the first time through, use the same budget for each set, see what you end up with stat-wise. The second time, aim for certain stat points (i.e. 200k dps, 600 EH or something like that) for each set and record how much it costs to get there.

I have 50 million that says, in both cases, the OwE set will be better. Well, assuming you do this properly and don't try to skew the results :P

A challenge like this isn't really necessary. I've already outlined (on numerous occasions lol...) why what I'm saying is true. You may not agree, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong. At the same time, you're arguing cost, and I'm arguing efficiency. They are NOT the same thing. I'm not sure why you can't see that, but it's true.

In terms of opportunity cost item + skill wise, AR is better. You're not denying that right?
And in terms of group flexibility skill wise AR is better. Not denying that either, right?


So then what pray-tell are we really arguing about? lol...
Edited by gotaplanstan#1369 on 3/22/2013 7:54 AM PDT
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Actually, theres a couple places you sacrificed (whether intentional or not) dps for CR:

-shoulders, could've been dex or dex/vit roll instead
-amulet, you could've got IAS instead

Sorry, can't afford a quadfecta ammy.


We already know that double stacking resist does not cost you any DPS rolls.

Reread post #78. It actually DOES cost you dps. You can look at the affixes on the stinkin Game Guide to see this... its really just simple math lol.

Why don't you have an EF with a socket? It's simple math! Why does your Nats ring have such a low roll on AR? So inefficient, simple math! No wait, why don't you have a trifecta Nats ring? Simple math! Why don't you have a trifecta ammy? Simple math!

Well, duh, because you can't afford them.


A challenge like this isn't really necessary. I've already outlined (on numerous occasions lol...) why what I'm saying is true. You may not agree, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong. At the same time, you're arguing cost, and I'm arguing efficiency. They are NOT the same thing. I'm not sure why you can't see that, but it's true.

In terms of opportunity cost item + skill wise, AR is better. You're not denying that right?
And in terms of group flexibility skill wise AR is better. Not denying that either, right?


So then what pray-tell are we really arguing about? lol...

Because the argument that you're making ignores cost. And yes, I completely agree, in a world where nobody is bound by cost, no-OwE > OwE.

But that game does not exist. For 99.99999% of the people that play Diablo 3, cost is a factor in the things they buy. Even people like MNT, who has admittedly spent $700 in the last month to gear up his alts, doesn't have perfectly rolled gear.

You are arguing about a hypothetical world in which cost and RNG are not present. I am arguing that in a world where RNG and cost ARE present and they are the limiting factors ... that OwE gives greater flexibility in terms of gearing.

The reason I don't have trifecta gloves with AR is the same reason I don't have a 300d, 200v shoulders. It's the same reason that I have double stacked boots and don't have CD or LS on my EF. It's the same reason that I don't have a CC Mempo.

The reason is that I play a game in which cost/rng is THE factor when deciding how to gear. Do you think I want bracers that don't have any vit? Hell no! Can I do anything about it? Kind of ... I can farm more DE and then cross my fingers. Do you think I want a trfiecta Nats ring? Hell yes! Can I do anything about it? Kind of ... I can farm more and then cross my fingers.

I recognize the flaws in my own gear. I just can't do anything about them.

And this is why I said someone needs to do the gear challenge - because until someone does something like that, where results are based on how people actually play this game, then nobody is going to convince me that OwE doesn't offer more flexibility in terms of gear.

edit:
Um no. There's no "minimum number" for AR.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7811401133#3
Edited by Piffle#1874 on 3/22/2013 7:55 AM PDT
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03/22/2013 07:49 AMPosted by Piffle
Sorry, can't afford a quadfecta ammy.

Never said you needed to be able to afford it, did I? I'm talking about efficiency and what is better in an ideal hypothetical situation.

Why don't you have an EF with a socket? It's simple math! Why does your Nats ring have such a low roll on AR? So inefficient, simple math! No wait, why don't you have a trifecta Nats ring? Simple math! Why don't you have a trifecta ammy? Simple math!

Well, duh, because you can't afford them.

Except not once did I argue money. That was all you. I have solely be arguing that OWE is not EFFICIENT. Reread ALL my posts in this thread and quote where I did mention money related to OWE being anything but in its favor (ie cheaper for OWE users). I NEVER said it was better though.

03/22/2013 07:49 AMPosted by Piffle
Because the argument that you're making ignores cost.

Because I've never been arguing cost? This really shouldn't be news to you on page 6...

03/22/2013 07:49 AMPosted by Piffle
You are arguing about a hypothetical world in which cost and RNG are not present. I am arguing that in a world where RNG and cost ARE present and they are the limiting factors ... that OwE gives greater flexibility in terms of gearing.

That's what min/maxing is. Talking about what is ideal in hypothetical situations. Situations you strive to reach some day, and use as a motivational tool to reaching them. The same way you set real life professional goals.
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