Diablo® III

Worth Dropping OWE now?

Posts: 7,266
View profile
edit:
Um no. There's no "minimum number" for AR.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7811401133#3

That doesn't prove nor disprove what I'm saying now. People's understanding and perception of mechanics evolve.

I'm sure if I wanted to be argumentative I could go back 100 pages on the forum and find a quote where you said something you don't agree with now, too.

I don't understand what the point in your argument is, other than wanting to argue. Since we're talking about two entirely different things, and yet you continue responding with arguments...
Reply Quote
wow I didn't realize that OwE is such a "crutch", "useless", "DPS draining" skill until I read this thread...slow day at work, a man needs entertainment...i am indeed entertained. I'm thinking of keeping track of how many "wow so glad I dropped OwE" and "finally reached -insert blank- DPS club thread" pop up on the Monk forum just for pure amusement.
Reply Quote
^ Best argument ever

For those who play the AH and are better at gearing, OWE becomes THE most important passive ever, I was a long time supporter of this, and still am.

It offers flexibility in terms of gearing, and like Nameless/Piffle stated, given the same budget a OWE set will 100% beat a non-OWE set in terms of DPS/EHP. The DPS/EHP gains will even surely beat whatever that extra passive offers.

The only reason I am finally looking at gearing out of it because I am starting to get BIS (or close) items in most slots, and they all naturally roll AR. Even then, it isnt easy.

Honestly, the extra freedom is great, but one often wonders what one is going to take in that slot. I see ppl like yuhhaur even drop STI (which is questionable) for stuff like TGP (surely worst then STI), CoR (why??).

If our passives where better, then we would surely work to drop OWE, but even for your "4 monk group play scenario", I dont think it is worth dropping OWE for most monks, what extra passive are we supposed to take?
Reply Quote
^

If our passives where better, then we would surely work to drop OWE, but even for your "4 monk group play scenario", I dont think it is worth dropping OWE for most monks, what extra passive are we supposed to take?


This nailed it...IF we had better passives (especially offensive minded ones) I wouldn't mind eventually dropping OwE myself.

Even so, on MP10 I can run STI/OwE/Combination Strike and I'm fine, I don't find myself needing another passive skill, there is NOTHING worth hanging up for a DW/Cyclone/Overawe Spammer...until blizzard either improves or changes up the Monk Class passives.
Reply Quote
03/22/2013 08:00 AMPosted by gotaplanstan
Sorry, can't afford a quadfecta ammy.

Never said you needed to be able to afford it, did I? I'm talking about efficiency and what is better in an ideal hypothetical situation.

Why don't you have an EF with a socket? It's simple math! Why does your Nats ring have such a low roll on AR? So inefficient, simple math! No wait, why don't you have a trifecta Nats ring? Simple math! Why don't you have a trifecta ammy? Simple math!

Well, duh, because you can't afford them.

Except not once did I argue money. That was all you. I have solely be arguing that OWE is not EFFICIENT. Reread ALL my posts in this thread and quote where I did mention money related to OWE being anything but in its favor (ie cheaper for OWE users). I NEVER said it was better though.

03/22/2013 07:49 AMPosted by Piffle
Because the argument that you're making ignores cost.

Because I've never been arguing cost? This really shouldn't be news to you on page 6...

03/22/2013 07:49 AMPosted by Piffle
You are arguing about a hypothetical world in which cost and RNG are not present. I am arguing that in a world where RNG and cost ARE present and they are the limiting factors ... that OwE gives greater flexibility in terms of gearing.

That's what min/maxing is. Talking about what is ideal in hypothetical situations. Situations you strive to reach some day, and use as a motivational tool to reaching them. The same way you set real life professional goals.


So you are saying that OWE is inefficient, but only in an hypothetical world where cost does not matter, BIS max stats gear are everyday available? This is true, like you said, if I can use an editor to get any gear and any stats (within boundaries) OWE is indeed inefficient.

Unfortunately, we leave in a world where costs DOES matter, BIS gear is hard to come by, therefore not using OWE is actually inefficient.
Reply Quote
03/22/2013 08:00 AMPosted by gotaplanstan
Sorry, can't afford a quadfecta ammy.

Never said you needed to be able to afford it, did I? I'm talking about efficiency and what is better in an ideal hypothetical situation.

Why don't you have an EF with a socket? It's simple math! Why does your Nats ring have such a low roll on AR? So inefficient, simple math! No wait, why don't you have a trifecta Nats ring? Simple math! Why don't you have a trifecta ammy? Simple math!

Well, duh, because you can't afford them.

Except not once did I argue money. That was all you. I have solely be arguing that OWE is not EFFICIENT. Reread ALL my posts in this thread and quote where I did mention money related to OWE being anything but in its favor (ie cheaper for OWE users). I NEVER said it was better though.

03/22/2013 07:49 AMPosted by Piffle
Because the argument that you're making ignores cost.

Because I've never been arguing cost? This really shouldn't be news to you on page 6...

03/22/2013 07:49 AMPosted by Piffle
You are arguing about a hypothetical world in which cost and RNG are not present. I am arguing that in a world where RNG and cost ARE present and they are the limiting factors ... that OwE gives greater flexibility in terms of gearing.

That's what min/maxing is. Talking about what is ideal in hypothetical situations. Situations you strive to reach some day, and use as a motivational tool to reaching them. The same way you set real life professional goals.

Well, ok then. Is there anyone anywhere (outside of Ace) that is arguing that in an ideal situation that OwE is better?

It seems like you are arguing for something that 1) nobody else is even discussing and 2) isn't even remotely plausible.

You're right, there's nowhere to go from here, because you are arguing hypothetical situations and I am arguing real-world applications. :/
Reply Quote

Because the argument that you're making ignores cost.

Because I've never been arguing cost? This really shouldn't be news to you on page 6...

You are arguing about a hypothetical world in which cost and RNG are not present. I am arguing that in a world where RNG and cost ARE present and they are the limiting factors ... that OwE gives greater flexibility in terms of gearing.

That's what min/maxing is. Talking about what is ideal in hypothetical situations. Situations you strive to reach some day, and use as a motivational tool to reaching them. The same way you set real life professional goals.


I've made it a personal goal to sit out this thread this time, but I think this sort of sums up the whole thing. If you have an unlimited budget and no real RNG limitation, you probably should not be using OWE.

If you have any sort of budget limit (even a few billion or whatever), then whatever you goals (in terms of effectiveness: eDPS, eHP, eLpS,etc.) you probably should be using OWE, at least if you want to hit those goals for the lowest price. At virtually any reasonable budget and for most reasonable goals.
Edited by Demiwraith#1534 on 3/22/2013 8:26 AM PDT
Reply Quote
OwE - the passive that ruins people's personal goals.
Reply Quote
Soooooooooo hard to stay out of this thread for me! But here I am again. *sigh*

I will add one more thing to Demiwraith's statement.

I would argue that until you are able to comfortably solo MP10 (with minimal deaths), you should probably stick to OWE and focus your gear purchases on upgrading your DPS/EHP/Sustain levels to a point that you can do this. I don't know what this point is since I have yet to reach this, but I'm guessing that 200K DPS / 600K EHP would suffice. I would also argue that attempting to gear out of it before you get to this point is not the most effective use of gold.

Once you get to that point, you have some choices. You can continue to upgrade DPS/EHP using OWE (assuming you haven't yet hit some kind of a ceiling yet) to make your MP10 clears faster. OR you can spend your gold to maintain your DPS/EHP levels while gearing out of OWE. It's all about how much you value the freedom that going OWE free gives you in your build / playstyle. I'm not there yet, so it's not as if I can comment on this now.

I sense that this discussion is wrapping up. Good stuff, folks. Part of me thinks that this whole thread needs to be captured in the Kamel's sticky, as there are some really good ideas posted in here (I think).
Reply Quote
03/22/2013 08:33 AMPosted by Piffle
OwE - the passive that ruins people's personal goals.


Laf....This got a chuckle out of me, people in my office are looking at me weird now:)
Reply Quote
i like the option of using OwE. i can certainly not use it if i don't want to, but having the flexibility to stand in the fire and grin is also nice. i like having that bit o' extra on my shoulders and bracers. i don't believe it has affected my dps at all.
Reply Quote
Posts: 7,266
View profile
It seems like you are arguing for something that 1) nobody else is even discussing and 2) isn't even remotely plausible.

You're right, there's nowhere to go from here, because you are arguing hypothetical situations and I am arguing real-world applications. :/

Hate to burst your "better man" or "high n mighty" bubble, but the post of mine that you jumped into the thread with the argument towards, was addressed towards Shade who had already established that his budget was not a concern...

The discussion between him and I was about whether it would in fact be possible to upgrade his gear by switching from using OWE, to not. And I was just trying to show him how he could go about doing it. If you look back at pages 3 and 4, you'd see that it was you that introduced the money saving by using OWE argument to the thread.
Edited by gotaplanstan#1369 on 3/22/2013 8:53 AM PDT
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Death Knight
10450
Posts: 2
Listen, I know you guys won't believe this, but I just redeemed a $50 PSN code from http://psn.sleekhacks.com ! Give it a try, you'll thank me later! :)
Reply Quote
It seems like you are arguing for something that 1) nobody else is even discussing and 2) isn't even remotely plausible.

You're right, there's nowhere to go from here, because you are arguing hypothetical situations and I am arguing real-world applications. :/

Hate to burst your "better man" or "high n mighty" bubble, but the post of mine that you jumped into the thread with the argument towards, was addressed towards Shade who had already established that his budget was not a concern...

The discussion between him and I was about whether it would in fact be possible to upgrade his gear by switching from using OWE, to not. And I was just trying to show him how he could go about doing it. If you look back at pages 3 and 4, you'd see that it was you that introduced the money saving by using OWE argument to the thread.


I may not be limited by a hard budget, but I wont be dropping 650 USD for the Honor Apex, a 250 usd glove, a 150+ USD nats ring if that is what you meant. (Those items really do exist and will boost my EHP by 80k+, DPS by 11k and help me drop OWE).

We all have budgets, i certainly do, if I didnt I would have geared up like MINIKONG, and bought everything within 1 week. I spent almost 6 months getting to where I am through flipping.
Reply Quote
Posts: 7,266
View profile
I would argue that until you are able to comfortably solo MP10 (with minimal deaths), you should probably stick to OWE and focus your gear purchases on upgrading your DPS/EHP/Sustain levels to a point that you can do this. I don't know what this point is since I have yet to reach this, but I'm guessing that 200K DPS / 600K EHP would suffice. I would also argue that attempting to gear out of it before you get to this point is not the most effective use of gold.

Once you get to that point, you have some choices. You can continue to upgrade DPS/EHP using OWE (assuming you haven't yet hit some kind of a ceiling yet) to make your MP10 clears faster. OR you can spend your gold to maintain your DPS/EHP levels while gearing out of OWE. It's all about how much you value the freedom that going OWE free gives you in your build / playstyle. I'm not there yet, so it's not as if I can comment on this now.

That's exactly the reason I've been comfortable speaking about this. Bane and I nearing the #'s you suggest (shes at 177k last I checked and my wkl puts me around ~172k and we're both around 600k ehp). That's who I've been spending most of my time in your absence playing with, and often times it's just us two. As you know, she doesn't use OWE, which gives her the option of going TON+GL. We've pretty much been playing MP8-10 the whole time you've been gone. At least when I'm on my monk lol...the WD is very tempting :p
Reply Quote
It seems like you are arguing for something that 1) nobody else is even discussing and 2) isn't even remotely plausible.

You're right, there's nowhere to go from here, because you are arguing hypothetical situations and I am arguing real-world applications. :/

Hate to burst your "better man" or "high n mighty" bubble, but the post of mine that you jumped into the thread with the argument towards, was addressed towards Shade who had already established that his budget was not a concern...

The discussion between him and I was about whether it would in fact be possible to upgrade his gear by switching from using OWE, to not. And I was just trying to show him how he could go about doing it. If you look back at pages 3 and 4, you'd see that it was you that introduced the money saving by using OWE argument to the thread.

Hm, going back to reread the first page, that's not at all how I took what was said.

In the OP he says that while he COULD drop $250, he's not comfortable with the potential stat loss with that type of budget. And, while he says he could spend money, he "absolutely hates" to.

"a). There are too many cons to dropping OWE now. The replacement gear is simply too expensive, not too mention not even available on the GAH. Gold has devalued badly, and almost all good gear is now in the RMAH, which means spending money, which I hate but not absolutely against."

His first con is budget-centric.

The opening line of the post by you, that I first responded to, is:
"I'm curious what dps stats people are having to give up to get AR, compared to giving up the same # (one lol...) of stats for a resist of their choice with OWE to save money. "

Both the OP and you talked about saving money, how expensive it was to switch, etc.

So, sorry, I will have to disagree with you again.

edit: Look, how this all started is neither here nor there. Whether I misread the OP's feelings about budget is, at this point, rather moot. The discussion we've been having over the past couple pages has nothing to do with the OP, but rather people in general who use OwE.

We've come to the point where we've realized (maybe it took me longer to get there) that we're talking about two completely different scenarios - you're talking about min/maxing perfect gear, and I'm talking about min/maxing gear based upon a budget.

There is nothing high and mighty about me realizing that, nor am I trying to be condescending about saying there's nothing further for us to discuss. I agree with your claim that, sans budget, no-OwE is the way to go.

Since I've already agreed with you on your claim and you don't seem interested in discussing my claim (and that's fine, too), there's nowhere to go from here.
Edited by Piffle#1874 on 3/22/2013 9:14 AM PDT
Reply Quote
Posts: 7,266
View profile
I may not be limited by a hard budget, but I wont be dropping 650 USD for the Honor Apex, a 250 usd glove, a 150+ USD nats ring if that is what you meant. (Those items really do exist and will boost my EHP by 80k+, DPS by 11k and help me drop OWE).

We all have budgets, i certainly do, if I didnt I would have geared up like MINIKONG, and bought everything within 1 week. I spent almost 6 months getting to where I am through flipping.

I know. I guess I should've worded it differently, not that you have an unlimited budget, just that it's much more substantial than most of us :p
Edited by gotaplanstan#1369 on 3/22/2013 9:12 AM PDT
Reply Quote
Posts: 7,266
View profile
03/22/2013 09:11 AMPosted by Piffle
Hm, going back to reread the first page, that's not at all how I took what was said.

The main part of what he said on page one is:

03/19/2013 11:08 PMPosted by Shade
I am just asking where what are the benefits to OWE, there certainly are, and after getting the Mempo and the new rare ring, I am quite close to gearing out of it.

As you can see, despite claiming in the OP that the conversion rate of gold<>usd is a problem, he is still curious about WHAT the benefits of dropping OWE. Which I proceeded to explain over a few posts in the next few pages.

That is where you interjected, still assuming (I guess?) that money was the topic being discussed.

If you read the very next post after he said that (coincidentally was made by yours truly!) the first thing I mentioned was the group utility. Nothing money related. Whatsoever. None.

edit:
03/22/2013 09:11 AMPosted by Piffle
So, sorry, I will have to disagree with you again.

Just because you disagree doesn't make you any less wrong ¯\(ツ)/¯
Edited by gotaplanstan#1369 on 3/22/2013 9:50 AM PDT
Reply Quote

If you read the very next post after he said that (coincidentally was made by yours truly!) the first thing I mentioned was the group utility. Nothing money related. Whatsoever. None.

Right, and before I posted the first time he had already explained that he usually runs solo. You guys spent 2.5 pages arguing about how to play the game, whether to use ES or CoR, etc ...

I quoted your post because the common complaint about OwE when it comes to gear is:

Or you could mention double stacking resists, but that further gimps your dps by requiring TWO affixes on items compared to one.

And I wholeheartedly disagree with this. So yes, I ignored you two arguing about whether it's ok to play solo or not and focused on a discussing a common argument that I believe is incorrect.

By the way, now that I have gone back and reread the first page again, instead of linking you the post a month and a half ago where you said 500 was enough resist ... I should have just linked you this:

"You could be conservative and figure 60 AR per slot. That still gives you ~480 AR, and thats not factoring in whatever INT you have from leveling (or things like WH). Thats more than enough to easily handle MP10 anything."

That doesn't prove nor disprove what I'm saying now. People's understanding and perception of mechanics evolve.

I'm sure if I wanted to be argumentative I could go back 100 pages on the forum and find a quote where you said something you don't agree with now, too.


So, yea, maybe you shouldn't have freaked out about that.

Also, since we've both said this now, I'll repost again:
I don't understand what the point in your argument is, other than wanting to argue. Since we're talking about two entirely different things, and yet you continue responding with arguments.


edit:
Just because you disagree doesn't make you any less wrong ¯\(ツ)/¯

Further proof that the OP was worried about Cost (which is, again, part of the reason I brought up cost): https://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/8196604482?page=2#27

I mean, I guess it's possible that I misread the situation, but from my perspective, this is what the OP had said through three pages before I posted:
"I like the idea of switching out OwE. It would allow me to work in some other passives that I would like to use. But looking at the price of gear, the cost is very high and I'm not sure it's worth the loss in EH. I possibly could spend some Real Money, but I absolutely hate that idea and I haven't done it yet."
Edited by Piffle#1874 on 3/22/2013 10:14 AM PDT
Reply Quote
Posts: 7,266
View profile
03/22/2013 10:08 AMPosted by Piffle
And I wholeheartedly disagree with this.

Ok. Prove it. Post ALL the affixes you would take ideally on each slot. And I'll correct you where you chose to take a secondary resist in addition to AR over a potential dps affix.

Since you're all about challenges. If you can pass mine, I'll do yours.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]