Diablo® III

Demon Hunter / mp6-mp10 = worthless

So I've finally got to the point where I'm halfway happy about my build. Numerous hours have been put into my Demon Hunter and farming items/exp. Finally after getting to a point where I feel like I'm reaching my wit's end with lackluster drops in farming and act 3 repeats, another bombshell. I really took the time to experiment with MP6-MP10. Demon hunters NEED more resource regeneration! It's that simple. With a passive skill that adds 20+ to hatred that achieves nothing but a longer regeneration rate. The bat does not regenerate hatred fast enough and takes up other valuable skills or even the boar which can bring a little more life/defense to the table at higher mps. Multishot, cluster bomb suck the living heck out of hatred and even with decent dps is annoying to cast and try to regenerate to use again. Ball lightning seems like a good candidate for at least being consistent on damage. That is for MP1-MP5. Demon hunters were originally de-buffed on nether tentacles, smoke screen and I'm sure the original IAS lowering affected many as well. So what does that leave? Not much for someone wanting to push past level 80 paragon and farm better/tougher elites. It's not about ease (I understand that) that's what the higher MP's are for. However, it is about a consistent balanced gameplay and the demon hunter seriously lacks this at higher MP's. I didn't create a character and spend hundreds of hours playing it just to be able to farm lowering MP's. This character needs an update and character buff. So any opinions on what can be done to change this? Take a 10-20% reduction off hatred cost? Increase damage on lightning ball? Bring back nether tentacles that can hit the same enemy more than once? I believe personally an all around hatred regeneration buff or decrease in cost is at hand. It's bad enough the game is suffering with itemization, and territory voids. Act 3 runs are getting old, but to add constant interruption to a character who should be renown as "quick" or "mobile" is literally contradictory and takes away from the gameplay.
Edited by Matheyus#1507 on 3/13/2013 7:29 AM PDT
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Yes, DH's need some help.

Although I'd argue that resource regen isn't really that much of a problem...

My biggest gripe is that we don't really have any powerful skills.

The Cluster Arrow is a relatively paltry 306% weapon dmg (and costs a boat load to use), and Spike Traps, while resource efficient, provide a painful gaming experience (its just slow and plodding).
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Resource regen is not the real problem imo, I regenerate enough hatred. The problem is that our skills don't hit hard enough that causes us to expend most of our resources to do consistent damage. Damage and proc rates on some skills need to be tweaked.
Edited by BurningJC007#1355 on 3/13/2013 7:57 AM PDT
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Cut Cluster arrow to 20 hatred, increase LFB rune to 400-450% damage, add a 5 sec timer to it. But tell me first so I can buy a -5 cluster arrow cost DML before the price goes up.

IMO that would give us a solid DPS hatred spender, the timer prevents it from being OP (use vengeance, get a cluster arrow hatred reduction DML and grenadier passive, spam like 10 in a row would be OP).

Grenadier would have to be tweaked to either add a small amount of damage or reduce cooldown to 3sec, because reducing LFB cost to 10 hatred would be a bit too much.
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The problem with DH is it's not efficient to farm higher levels because our AOE attacks are not effective. Also because if a DH wants to live in high MP they NEED all res which means you will do less damage...unless someone is extremely gold wealthy above-average DH is better off farming MP5.
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Yes, DH's need some help.

Although I'd argue that resource regen isn't really that much of a problem...

My biggest gripe is that we don't really have any powerful skills.

The Cluster Arrow is a relatively paltry 306% weapon dmg (and costs a boat load to use), and Spike Traps, while resource efficient, provide a painful gaming experience (its just slow and plodding).


LFB is more than just 304%, its 304% + 100% from the small bombs, 404% is pretty huge for a ranged attack with some AOE. So the problem with DH isnt the lack of powerful skills, its the lack of good resource generators like wizard's APoC that makes them difficult to play. We cant spam EBs like wizards or HOTAs like barbs without running out of hatred because there is no way of regaining hatred quickly.
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Yes, DH's need some help.

Although I'd argue that resource regen isn't really that much of a problem...

My biggest gripe is that we don't really have any powerful skills.

The Cluster Arrow is a relatively paltry 306% weapon dmg (and costs a boat load to use), and Spike Traps, while resource efficient, provide a painful gaming experience (its just slow and plodding).


LFB is more than just 304%, its 304% + 100% from the small bombs, 404% is pretty huge for a ranged attack with some AOE. So the problem with DH isnt the lack of powerful skills, its the lack of good resource generators like wizard's APoC that makes them difficult to play. We cant spam EBs like wizards or HOTAs like barbs without running out of hatred because there is no way of regaining hatred quickly.

Resource regen isn't really the problem, I've been running a punishment build for almost 2 weeks now, having almost unlimited hatred and barely having to use my generator. If skills hit harder, builds like mine would be more common. Our skills with good AOE don't hit hard enough and our resource intensive skills don't hit hard enough to make it worth using them. When playing my Monk, it is worth it to generate the spirit to use Wave of Light, not the case with Loaded for Bear.
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if you could fire 2 LfBs + 1 echo every second eDPS seems sufficient on ST... it's AoE is pretty bad

basically LfB needs to be more like 600% at the initial nuke zone, with a 10 yard radius
then we all have to use Grenadier with -5 ca SoJ and -5 ca DML
just to compete with WoL(empowerment) on the monk
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LFB is more than just 304%, its 304% + 100% from the small bombs, 404% is pretty huge for a ranged attack with some AOE. So the problem with DH isnt the lack of powerful skills, its the lack of good resource generators like wizard's APoC that makes them difficult to play. We cant spam EBs like wizards or HOTAs like barbs without running out of hatred because there is no way of regaining hatred quickly.

Resource regen isn't really the problem, I've been running a punishment build for almost 2 weeks now, having almost unlimited hatred and barely having to use my generator. If skills hit harder, builds like mine would be more common. Our skills with good AOE don't hit hard enough and our resource intensive skills don't hit hard enough to make it worth using them. When playing my Monk, it is worth it to generate the spirit to use Wave of Light, not the case with Loaded for Bear.


Well does your punishment build allow you to spam LFBs? With vengeance, 25disc would only allow you to fire 3 CAs, thats... nothing, so clearly its a resource generation problem. I see that you are trying to argue that LFB costs too much, but note that they are the same thing i.e DHs need better resource regen or lower skill cost to spam high power secondaries.

Yes WoL does more dmg than LFB but it also costs more resource, its a whopping 75 spirit, thats 50% of the default max spirit pool. I agree that WoL is mathematically more resource efficient but LFB has better range, so apples to oranges.
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if you could fire 2 LfBs + 1 echo every second eDPS seems sufficient on ST... it's AoE is pretty bad

basically LfB needs to be more like 600% at the initial nuke zone, with a 10 yard radius
then we all have to use Grenadier with -5 ca SoJ and -5 ca DML
just to compete with WoL(empowerment) on the monk


Or have its cost cut to 35 hatred.
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03/13/2013 09:23 AMPosted by TasteDeath
Yes WoL does more dmg than LFB but it also costs more resource, its a whopping 75 spirit, thats 50% of the default max spirit pool. I agree that WoL is mathematically more resource efficient but LFB has better range, so apples to oranges.

Costs 40 with the rune. And monks have better resource generation potential than dhs on high mps.

Hatred is indeed a problem. Unless we use weak skills like ball lightning, most of our time is spent shooting generators. A build of any other class that has as much downtime as us would be considered weak.
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WoL hits several times just so you guys know lol! The initial hit has a nice AOE and then I pushes forward and continue to hit several times and has KB. It's is very spamable with just the right mantra or sweeping wind adding a defensive layer to spamming WoL. That's what makes it better on resources, it's that it has utility on the other skills to spam it. Punishment has zero utility outside of draining discipline for hatred.

This applies to wizards since their passive critical mass reduces cool downs on critical hits and they get gear that adds resources on critical hits so the two synergize to give unlimited skill spam BOTH offensive and defensive.

Again for Barbs Ino the Fray not only gives 3% crit chance bonus and a 15% damage bonus but it also lets critical hits give fury. Further utility, an outright DPS boost ontop of fury generation for skill spamming.

Meanwhile like I said punishment has zero utility outside of resource regeneration at the cost of our very valuable defensive resource discipline. That's not even a comparable option versus the others lol!

We need both a damage boost and resource cost cut or a means of hatred on crit or something to even come close to matching those feedback loops of resource regeneration that the other classes share to even come close their effective damage.

Again our damage output SHOULD be OP since we are the DPS class and our game guide description even says we're supposed to decimate everything before it gets too close to us lol!
Edited by METATRON#1945 on 3/13/2013 10:38 AM PDT
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Y


Resource regen isn't really the problem, I've been running a punishment build for almost 2 weeks now, having almost unlimited hatred and barely having to use my generator. If skills hit harder, builds like mine would be more common. Our skills with good AOE don't hit hard enough and our resource intensive skills don't hit hard enough to make it worth using them. When playing my Monk, it is worth it to generate the spirit to use Wave of Light, not the case with Loaded for Bear.


Well does your punishment build allow you to spam LFBs? With vengeance, 25disc would only allow you to fire 3 CAs, thats... nothing, so clearly its a resource generation problem. I see that you are trying to argue that LFB costs too much, but note that they are the same thing i.e DHs need better resource regen or lower skill cost to spam high power secondaries.

Yes WoL does more dmg than LFB but it also costs more resource, its a whopping 75 spirit, thats 50% of the default max spirit pool. I agree that WoL is mathematically more resource efficient but LFB has better range, so apples to oranges.


I've also done a CA build, and I was throwing out CA's about once a second.

Its fun, its viable (for the DH), but it just doesn't quite pack the punch I am expecting to see.

Don't get me wrong, I would be all for some buffs to Hatred regeneration... but I'd really like to have some bigger hammers in our arsenal as well.

Meanwhile, the Monk runs by, dropping big bells for a mind boggling 829% damage, and you can spam them all. day. long.
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Resource regen isn't really the problem, I've been running a punishment build for almost 2 weeks now, having almost unlimited hatred and barely having to use my generator. If skills hit harder, builds like mine would be more common. Our skills with good AOE don't hit hard enough and our resource intensive skills don't hit hard enough to make it worth using them. When playing my Monk, it is worth it to generate the spirit to use Wave of Light, not the case with Loaded for Bear.


Well does your punishment build allow you to spam LFBs? With vengeance, 25disc would only allow you to fire 3 CAs, thats... nothing, so clearly its a resource generation problem. I see that you are trying to argue that LFB costs too much, but note that they are the same thing i.e DHs need better resource regen or lower skill cost to spam high power secondaries.

Yes WoL does more dmg than LFB but it also costs more resource, its a whopping 75 spirit, thats 50% of the default max spirit pool. I agree that WoL is mathematically more resource efficient but LFB has better range, so apples to oranges.

Well I guess we are in essence in agreement then. I believe LFB costs to much, but I also think if it hit harder it would be worth the time to generate the hatred to use it. I'm not sure how Blizzard is going to tackle the issue.
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03/13/2013 09:58 AMPosted by METATRON
Meanwhile like I said punishment has zero utility outside of resource regeneration at the cost of our very valuable defensive resource discipline. That's not even a comparable option versus the others lol!

Good point.
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hatred generation alone won't address chak/EA/RF/FoV/RoV being terrible at mp10

even with hatred resource expanded considerably many skills are painfully underpowered either in output &/or AoE for higher MP

good hatred will only yield to LfB and Custom Engi + echos being optimal; not exactly where I want the class to be forced
Edited by zoid#1554 on 3/13/2013 10:43 AM PDT
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Well does your punishment build allow you to spam LFBs? With vengeance, 25disc would only allow you to fire 3 CAs, thats... nothing, so clearly its a resource generation problem. I see that you are trying to argue that LFB costs too much, but note that they are the same thing i.e DHs need better resource regen or lower skill cost to spam high power secondaries.

Yes WoL does more dmg than LFB but it also costs more resource, its a whopping 75 spirit, thats 50% of the default max spirit pool. I agree that WoL is mathematically more resource efficient but LFB has better range, so apples to oranges.


WoL has a rune that reduces the cost from 75 spirit to 40 spirit while still doing 829% damage. If you don't take that rune you can use the one that increases damage to 1202% damage while still costing 75 spirit. With Fists of Thunder and the Quickening rune, which gives 15 spirit per crit for each target, you can spam WoL all day long. WoL also has AoE along a path that is almost as far as the range for LFB, LFB does have a max range.
Edited by snickerers#1190 on 3/13/2013 10:46 AM PDT
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I've tried about every build possible with most of the spenders, LFB with gren hatred regen and hatred reduction. Spike traps with +dmg and custom eng. EA with +dmg and hatred regen. EF with covering +dmg, etc.

After all that, I agree, our ranged skills need better aoe and need to be buffed. The only skill I find really efficient is spike traps echoing, and it is a pain to use on ranged targets, and wasting another slot on a spender isn't worth it either. Cluster arrow can be decent if you build for it, but it still uses hatred too fast and you need to run bat and gren and have hatred regen on your gear so you give up a lot to do it and in the end spike traps with simple +dmg is better.

The problem with hatred reduction on CA is that with gear and gren the cost becomes too low, so just buff the damage, and buff the damage on our other skills too like EA/Chak/EF and give more of them good aoe effect.
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OP

Find a party to play with. You aren't efficiently farming at that MP more than likely anyway w any class sans barb. Traps, m4d, and turrets all add to your and your groups eDPS. If you are playing w an overawe monk, a wiz to keep them frozen, and a hex/bbv wd it's that much better. It is a mp game afterall.
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OP

Find a party to play with. You aren't efficiently farming at that MP more than likely anyway w any class sans barb. Traps, m4d, and turrets all add to your and your groups eDPS. If you are playing w an overawe monk, a wiz to keep them frozen, and a hex/bbv wd it's that much better. It is a mp game afterall.


the thing is all those classes can do mp10 SOLO pretty easily since they can spam their heavy hitters that do a lot more DPS than ours do and we cant spam ours lol
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