Diablo® III

What if D3 was a D2 upgrade, not a WoW clone

03/19/2013 08:42 PMPosted by Goodbrew
If only we could still play Diablo 2, which is so much better than this. "Would that this desk were a time desk!" But alas, we are forced to play Diablo 3 day in and day out - the only explanation as to why the haters all have hundreds and hundreds of hours logged.


The thing about D2 was that it could be played for hundreds even thousands of hours and still was enjoyable. Personally I have so many hours played because it was possible to make a decent amount of real money in d3, and I did that as a college student to get some extra spending money. However, lately the economy has been sucking and even godly rolled items aren't selling decently, I got a 296 str IK belt a few weeks ago and couldnt even get $20 for it. With such low odds of good items and the rewards not being worth much I'm quickly losing the desire to play the game as it isn't much fun smashing act 3 over and over again. Back when I played d2 I never played for money, only for fun and I still played a lot more than d3. The game had much more depth, and finding cool and unique items often encouraged me to roll a new class (ww sin warewolf barb etc.). D3 isn't a bad game but it could have been a LOT better if they hadn't removed so many of the features that made d2 as good as it was.
Reply Quote
Also, the majority of people that still play this game a lot and defend it from bashing seem to have dps at 100k or less. With the current state of the economy it takes almost no gold to reach this point, but once a certain stat level is reached somewhere around 200k dps it becomes extremely expensive to obtain upgrades. I'd be willing to bet most people quit when they hit a comfortable dps number and realize it is super expensive to get upgrades anymore. When it costs over 250 million gold to upgrade a single piece of equipment, it is pretty discouraging to have to farm for a week or more just to upgrade one piece of gear slightly, when the only reward is to be able to farm slightly faster. In d2 there were charms and jewels and many ways to upgrade a character, even mercs could be pretty good if you invested in their gear, while in d3 they are pretty much there to add mf and bonus exp. PvP in d2 also was extremely competitive, so it was an incentive to try and obtain the best possible gear to beat the best possible players, now its just about who can farm the same content two seconds faster than the other person.
Reply Quote
I don't see how this game is a WoW clone, but regardless if this game was just like D2 (which may possibly be a good thing), the same thing that is happening now would have happened then too.

People will complain just as much about other things because it is 100% impossible to please everyone no matter what it is. You know...just like people complained back when D2 was the new thing on the block. The only difference between now and back then is that internet access and by extension people's ability to complain in a public forum is more common these days.

it is pretty discouraging to have to farm for a week or more just to upgrade one piece of gear slightly, when the only reward is to be able to farm slightly faster.


Uh...how is that any different than what you did in D2?
Reply Quote
03/19/2013 09:14 PMPosted by Chief
Also, the majority of people that still play this game a lot and defend it from bashing seem to have dps at 100k or less. With the current state of the economy it takes almost no gold to reach this point, but once a certain stat level is reached somewhere around 200k dps it becomes extremely expensive to obtain upgrades. I'd be willing to bet most people quit when they hit a comfortable dps number and realize it is super expensive to get upgrades anymore. When it costs over 250 million gold to upgrade a single piece of equipment, it is pretty discouraging to have to farm for a week or more just to upgrade one piece of gear slightly, when the only reward is to be able to farm slightly faster. In d2 there were charms and jewels and many ways to upgrade a character, even mercs could be pretty good if you invested in their gear, while in d3 they are pretty much there to add mf and bonus exp. PvP in d2 also was extremely competitive, so it was an incentive to try and obtain the best possible gear to beat the best possible players, now its just about who can farm the same content two seconds faster than the other person.


Thats right, it become so hard to find upgrades after hitting a certain plateau. Which brings us back to the core issue of the game, which is Linear design. There no demand for multiple sets of gear to accommodate skill diversity. Because theres no skill diversity, all skills scale of DPS.
Everyone player just need to have one set of items with the most DPS, theres absolutely no reason to buy any other items.
As a result, we have an economy thats skewed like a retard
Reply Quote
As I stated, d2 had competitive pvp which involved getting extremely good gear and filling the inventory with charms to get as competitive as possible. Level 99 was pretty difficult to obtain so at least you could get exp and be making progress toward level 99 while farming or boss running. I know d3 has paragon, but that gives incentive to only play one character that is the highest paragon level since they will have the highest mf/stats, and the only worthwhile drops in d3 are legendary/set/rare so highest possible mf is ideal. In d2 there was incentive to play more than one char, sorcs were great for stacking mf gear and running bosses, skeleton necros were good for farming pits in hell looking for good white items etc. Way more items that dropped were worthwhile, runes, jewels, charms, white items with sockets etc. there were just many more chances of getting something worth keeping to trade. The point is there were different effective methods to farm, and even boss running had the chance of good items dropping while trying to gain exp. D3 is certainly a lot more similar to wow than d2 was with the inclusion of cooldowns on skills, and other features it just feels like wow.
Reply Quote
Posts: 310
Let's put it this way, I would gladly pay $60 for an identical Diablo 2 game (minus the exploits, botting, mules, etc. Assuming problems like those would be addressed) in today's modern graphics.

Chances are, I would still be playing it instead of visiting this forum every couple months to see what's up.

P.S. Why is my avatar the default picture? It's set as "Ghost Kerrigan" and was set at "Tyrael Marine"
Edited by Exclamatory#1720 on 3/19/2013 11:09 PM PDT
Reply Quote
83 Orc Death Knight
4485
Posts: 123
03/19/2013 09:57 PMPosted by Chief
As I stated, d2 had competitive pvp which involved getting extremely good gear and filling the inventory with charms to get as competitive as possible. Level 99 was pretty difficult to obtain so at least you could get exp and be making progress toward level 99 while farming or boss running. I know d3 has paragon, but that gives incentive to only play one character that is the highest paragon level since they will have the highest mf/stats, and the only worthwhile drops in d3 are legendary/set/rare so highest possible mf is ideal. In d2 there was incentive to play more than one char, sorcs were great for stacking mf gear and running bosses, skeleton necros were good for farming pits in hell looking for good white items etc. Way more items that dropped were worthwhile, runes, jewels, charms, white items with sockets etc. there were just many more chances of getting something worth keeping to trade. The point is there were different effective methods to farm, and even boss running had the chance of good items dropping while trying to gain exp. D3 is certainly a lot more similar to wow than d2 was with the inclusion of cooldowns on skills, and other features it just feels like wow.


What is even more amazing, you didn't need godly gear to be great at PvP.

Well at least before 1.09 enigma cheese.

I could run a 33 kukozon and win vs anyone at any level above me (including 90+ chars with full DR) because I knew the game, what mechanics were good/bad and how to maximize my potential at level 33.

LLD still is heavily played and items are sought after not because they are unique/runewords, but because they are specific rares that have amazing LLD mods.

How much LLD is in D3? Oh yea....
Reply Quote
03/19/2013 12:34 AMPosted by Meltdown
Why not? You bought a re-skinned version of D1.


With new classes, new playstyle, multiplayer, and COUNTLESS improvements.

Much like the jump from D2 to D3; it's in a completely different (higher/better) league from its predecessor.
Reply Quote
You have the insight of a 10 year old, based on your post. The team that made D2 was disbanded due to the closing of Blizzard North, so the main Blizzard was the one that developed D3, and they had little experience designing ARPGs. Naturally the game didn't turn out as a D2.5, as much as most of us would have liked it to be. I like what the game has become though, and I hope it will keep improving in the same direction.
Reply Quote
03/19/2013 11:41 PMPosted by Hotshot
You have the insight of a 10 year old, based on your post. The team that made D2 was disbanded due to the closing of Blizzard North, so the main Blizzard was the one that developed D3, and they had little experience designing ARPGs. Naturally the game didn't turn out as a D2.5, as much as most of us would have liked it to be. I like what the game has become though, and I hope it will keep improving in the same direction.


I have insight of a 10 year old because I asked people to imagine what D3 would be like if it was an improved version of D2?
Wait what? LOL

Explain your claim, how exactly is 10 years little experience?
Reply Quote
03/19/2013 09:46 PMPosted by Xynth22
People will complain just as much about other things because it is 100% impossible to please everyone no matter what it is.


so what you do is try to make the casual gamer happy instead of the Chinese farmer factories. we understand that making the game fun for us will in turn make the game un fun for the farmers.

we don't care
Reply Quote
Let's put it this way, I would gladly pay $60 for an identical Diablo 2 game (minus the exploits, botting, mules, etc. Assuming problems like those would be addressed) in today's modern graphics.

Chances are, I would still be playing it instead of visiting this forum every couple months to see what's up.

P.S. Why is my avatar the default picture? It's set as "Ghost Kerrigan" and was set at "Tyrael Marine"


I wholly agree with this. I understand that they want to make something new, but D3 is not an upgrade to Diablo 2. This could have been a different game "Name" wise and no one would think otherwise. If this game were named "Legend of Heroes" (Lame name) it would work. Change the reminiscence of Diablo characters to something else, it will still work.
Reply Quote
85 Blood Elf Death Knight
5935
Posts: 20,221
03/19/2013 09:01 PMPosted by Chief
If only we could still play Diablo 2, which is so much better than this. "Would that this desk were a time desk!" But alas, we are forced to play Diablo 3 day in and day out - the only explanation as to why the haters all have hundreds and hundreds of hours logged.


The thing about D2 was that it could be played for hundreds even thousands of hours and still was enjoyable. Personally I have so many hours played because it was possible to make a decent amount of real money in d3, and I did that as a college student to get some extra spending money. However, lately the economy has been sucking and even godly rolled items aren't selling decently, I got a 296 str IK belt a few weeks ago and couldnt even get $20 for it. With such low odds of good items and the rewards not being worth much I'm quickly losing the desire to play the game as it isn't much fun smashing act 3 over and over again. Back when I played d2 I never played for money, only for fun and I still played a lot more than d3. The game had much more depth, and finding cool and unique items often encouraged me to roll a new class (ww sin warewolf barb etc.). D3 isn't a bad game but it could have been a LOT better if they hadn't removed so many of the features that made d2 as good as it was.


He must mean the excessive botting,duping,hacks,3rd party sellers, and all the exploits because that is really what made d2 what it is.
The ability to make multiple accounts- a real value for 3rd part sellers
The ability yo jump acts- A great boon for the botters, dupers, and exploiters
The Hellforee and socket quest- exploited to death on a daily basis
The 24-90 rushs- lest we deprive the exploiters.
Many things people don't like in D3 are the result of abuses in D2
The old adage " you reap what you sow" Haunts D3.
Reply Quote
83 Orc Death Knight
4485
Posts: 123
He must mean the excessive botting,duping,hacks,and all the exploits because that is really what made d2 what it is.

It allowed people to play the game and have fun, trade appropriately (since items had a known and consistent value) and encouraged ladder play which was awesome.
The ability to make multiple accounts- a real value for 3rd part sellers

The fact that anyone thinks that 3rd party sites are a) bad, b) prevalent in d2 days is ignorant.
Nobody bought items from 3rd party sites because were obscenely expensive, and you could find nearly the same gear in game or trade for it with a little effort (ie stockpile gems, sojs, runes).
The ability yo jump acts- A great boon for the botters, dupers, and exploiters

You mean a great boon for real gameplay, a fun experience, and something that was engaging instead of quest based on-rails gaming that is D3? You must love Fables the Journey.
The Hellforee and socket quest- exploited to death on a daily basis

Exploited? You mean characters got leveled to use them? Yea, how sad.
The 24-90 rushs- lest we deprive the exploiters.

I am confused, can you not get to level 60 in D3 in about 6 hours or less nowadays, and this is only 9 months after the game is released!

D2 was a better game because of duping, botting, freedom of movement and choice, real decisions, real rewards from playing (quests) and diversity in gameplay (character customization, multiple economic contributing factors, and the resetting of gear every few months).
Reply Quote
03/20/2013 02:46 AMPosted by Elderone


The thing about D2 was that it could be played for hundreds even thousands of hours and still was enjoyable. Personally I have so many hours played because it was possible to make a decent amount of real money in d3, and I did that as a college student to get some extra spending money. However, lately the economy has been sucking and even godly rolled items aren't selling decently, I got a 296 str IK belt a few weeks ago and couldnt even get $20 for it. With such low odds of good items and the rewards not being worth much I'm quickly losing the desire to play the game as it isn't much fun smashing act 3 over and over again. Back when I played d2 I never played for money, only for fun and I still played a lot more than d3. The game had much more depth, and finding cool and unique items often encouraged me to roll a new class (ww sin warewolf barb etc.). D3 isn't a bad game but it could have been a LOT better if they hadn't removed so many of the features that made d2 as good as it was.


He must mean the excessive botting,duping,hacks,3rd party sellers, and all the exploits because that is really what made d2 what it is.
The ability to make multiple accounts- a real value for 3rd part sellers
The ability yo jump acts- A great boon for the botters, dupers, and exploiters
The Hellforee and socket quest- exploited to death on a daily basis
The 24-90 rushs- lest we deprive the exploiters.
Many things people don't like in D3 are the result of abuses in D2
The old adage " you reap what you sow" Haunts D3.


We assume the same level of security exist in D3 will be able to block all the "excessive botting,duping,hacks,3rd party sellers, and all the exploits"

You are in a different world if you think the reason people are not playing D3 because of they can't hack.
Reply Quote
Posts: 14,245
View profile
03/19/2013 08:11 PMPosted by Starico


Both previous Diablo games did not really take much thought as far as how to build a good character.

Also plot twist and interesting dialogue. Come on give me a break, both previous titles lead you by the nose the whole time. Sure if you rifle ball your way through the dialogue. If you didn't ask around town to find out more info on the current quest. But if you do the same here, decide not to pick up any books or listen to the quest givers. Skip all cinematic scenes you would be in the same boat as the first two games. There were no plot twist, or surprise endings.


I think the game as a whole was low standard not just the plot, cinematic etc. Things like items and skills were extremely dull.

I can understand why this game took so long to make, the details are very good, the environment and monsters are well refined. But i dont think those things are all that important in comparison to the character/item/skill design. Skills are aesthetically pleasing but lacked depth. Having every skill scale of DPS is lazy. Having all items geared towards one main dps stat is lazy.


D2 only had a little bit more depth as far as skills and point spending goes. It's depth is not a lot more than most players are thinking. My experience as a D2 player taught me that you can easily make a game that is really not that hard to figure out. Harder than what it really is.

03/19/2013 08:21 PMPosted by Alliance
Both previous Diablo games did not really take much thought as far as how to build a good character.


Rofl?

The whole complaint from JW and baddies was that characters could be built "wrong" which implies thought and decisions.

Make a bad decision, and your character isn't as powerful.

PoE does this well, their skill tree is HUGE, and can make a bad character, but can refund skills via an item that is found.

Thus respecs could take a long time, or just remake a character completely.

This is the proper way to do an ARPG in terms of skills/character customization and a feeling of "being unique."

Moreover, it makes players who think outside the box find a good way to use bad skills/builds, or make them effective through items (when items actually meant something, unlike D3).


Look JW and buddies were looking at new players. Also D2's system of skill/attribute points was not a deep as some players are thinking. A new player can let D2's ssytem overwhelm them. I know that I did at first. But after a few tries of making new characters. I quickly saw that the only right way to spend your stat points where as follows.

Str: enough for gear
Dex: enough for gear or max block
Vit: the rest of your unspent points
Ene: none ever, unless you were an energy shield sorc.

I learned that without any knowledge of theorycrafting math at all. I did not use any spreadsheets at all. And D2 was my first computer game as well. Next the skill point system was about the same. With enough tries you could figure out what skills were very powerful just playing the game. If you bothered to take about an hour to plan out your character. Which btw should be very easy for most players.

You could easily have all of the gear, attributes, and skills all planned out. It is not really that hard at all. Then patch 1.10 came along and added in synergies that made it even easier. It did not take a math genius to figure out a good build in D2. Even pre 1.10, all you had to do was take a little time to study the class and spec you wanted to use. Then you could figure out what skills, attributes and gear you would need to make it work. All it would take would be about an hour to do. Even less after patch 1.10.

This game needed more depth than D2. But then the question is how do you increase depth and still make it a game that is easy to learn but difficult to master.

POE is not as deep as you think. I have a few characters in that game so I should know. It was easy for me to figure out a build and it is working just fine. My best character is a maraurder.

Also I must ask why is it so important to have more builds that are obviously a failure than a success. Why does a game have to have only a handful of useful builds and the rest total junk. There should be a way where you can have hundreds of useful builds along side of the best builds in the game. But that is not what it would seem to take to please everyone here. It would be like D3 only needs about 5 viable builds per class in order to be perfect. I am not talking about the best builds either. I am talking about 5 builds that can clear inferno on MP0 with gear equal to my barb.
Reply Quote
Posts: 14,245
View profile
If you are thinking that D2 had an in depth skill system. Then you were saying when you dinged a level "Hey ma, where do I put my skill point again?" A trained chimp could put together a build without much planning.

Put one point every level into your spammable skills and their synergies and you are done. So you really think it took a lot of thinking a planning. If it took you a long time to plan out a build. then I dare say if you find anything more complex than that you better stay away from it. Because your head would explode with all of the thinking you would have to do in order to spend those points.


So you are saying...that there was no way to improve on this system? Instead go with a system that has no depth at all, zero. That requires players play with the most optimal skills or just suck, and that has no real choices at all unless you are so top geared that you don't even need to play anymore?

See the thing is, the reason D2 economy didn't suck, the reason people played a lot and made new characters, was because there was always something new to do.

With a CHOICE in skills, you could create a multitude of characters that all geared differently, played differently, and had different strengths and weaknesses.

Diablo 3, all characters have the same strengths, same weaknesses, gear the same, use the same basic skills, and all pretty much play exactly the same.

People say D2 skill system was bad, but they obviously have no idea that they are playing a game on rails that is D3.


The only time I would say that we have no choice at all. Is the day when Blizz would auto assign active skills, runes and passive skills. Until that day comes we will have a choice as far as what skills we will use.

The only differences here are as follows.

1. You do not have to level up new characters just to try out new skills. Which btw you can still do if you wanted to. Not really all that hard to make it to level cap with any character at all.
2. More skills that are useful in inferno than what you had with D2's skills. I do not think you could have a tri sorc that only used her bolt attacks as the only attacks she would use.
3. A gearing system that has only one right way to gear up a character. This point is the point they need to improve on and in time they will. Because I believe that their jobs are on the line.

So I say that now since they decided to make the skill system simpler. Their should come from the itemization. Where there are a ton of different right answers. Sure all of them will not be optimal for what you want to do with the character. But as long as they are fun and do not lower your performance by a lot then players will use those gear and skill setups.

I believe that it would be a little tougher to design a truly in depth skill and attribute system. That has a lot of depth. One that is not obvious as far as the most optimal way to get the job done. A system where the non optimal approaches only differ by about 5% in performance.

03/19/2013 08:58 PMPosted by Alliance
If only we could still play Diablo 2, which is so much better than this. "Would that this desk were a time desk!" But alas, we are forced to play Diablo 3 day in and day out - the only explanation as to why the haters all have hundreds and hundreds of hours logged.


The only reason D3 sold so well was because of D2.

Console releases will fail hard due to gamers knowing how bad D3 actually is.


I disagree with you, because the only way that would be true is if the players did not keep up to date on the development of the game. They just buried their heads in the sand and went lah, lah, lah, lah not listening to any other news other than the release. Where everyone was expecting a perfect clone of D2 with prettier graphics and a different story.
Reply Quote
Then it would be a worse game.

I prefer Diablo 3 over TL2 and PoE which have both been praised as true Diablo 2 successors by hundreds of players on these forums.
Reply Quote
03/19/2013 06:22 PMPosted by Starico
i wish paragon levels gave you like 1 point to add to a certain skill like d2 did. with diminishing returns just so its not so op


That actually sounds really really good. Imagine you could improve your skill level with paragon, that would get rid of the lack of skill diversity problem. and make progression that much more fun


I've been saying this since Paragon was announced..
Reply Quote
Posts: 14,245
View profile
03/19/2013 09:57 PMPosted by Chief
As I stated, d2 had competitive pvp which involved getting extremely good gear and filling the inventory with charms to get as competitive as possible. Level 99 was pretty difficult to obtain so at least you could get exp and be making progress toward level 99 while farming or boss running. I know d3 has paragon, but that gives incentive to only play one character that is the highest paragon level since they will have the highest mf/stats, and the only worthwhile drops in d3 are legendary/set/rare so highest possible mf is ideal. In d2 there was incentive to play more than one char, sorcs were great for stacking mf gear and running bosses, skeleton necros were good for farming pits in hell looking for good white items etc. Way more items that dropped were worthwhile, runes, jewels, charms, white items with sockets etc. there were just many more chances of getting something worth keeping to trade. The point is there were different effective methods to farm, and even boss running had the chance of good items dropping while trying to gain exp. D3 is certainly a lot more similar to wow than d2 was with the inclusion of cooldowns on skills, and other features it just feels like wow.


Should the only incentive to play more characters of the same class be the fact you are forced to. In order to try out new skills. That is a weak incentive IMO. You can now reroll any character of any class you want to and do just that relevel to try out different things if you want to.

03/19/2013 09:01 PMPosted by Chief
If only we could still play Diablo 2, which is so much better than this. "Would that this desk were a time desk!" But alas, we are forced to play Diablo 3 day in and day out - the only explanation as to why the haters all have hundreds and hundreds of hours logged.


The thing about D2 was that it could be played for hundreds even thousands of hours and still was enjoyable. Personally I have so many hours played because it was possible to make a decent amount of real money in d3, and I did that as a college student to get some extra spending money. However, lately the economy has been sucking and even godly rolled items aren't selling decently, I got a 296 str IK belt a few weeks ago and couldnt even get $20 for it. With such low odds of good items and the rewards not being worth much I'm quickly losing the desire to play the game as it isn't much fun smashing act 3 over and over again. Back when I played d2 I never played for money, only for fun and I still played a lot more than d3. The game had much more depth, and finding cool and unique items often encouraged me to roll a new class (ww sin warewolf barb etc.). D3 isn't a bad game but it could have been a LOT better if they hadn't removed so many of the features that made d2 as good as it was.


Also some players play this game for fun. I know that I do just that. It is fun to watch how the different classes kill their enemies. I do not always play the most efficient farming builds in the game.

03/20/2013 03:08 AMPosted by Alliance
D2 was a better game because of duping, botting, freedom of movement and choice, real decisions, real rewards from playing (quests) and diversity in gameplay (character customization, multiple economic contributing factors, and the resetting of gear every few months).


So since you speak about botting and duping as making D2 better you wish you could legally do that here. Being able to dupe without Blizz's rollbacks would make this game better huh. A player that loves to cheat must've used god modes in all games that supported them.

The day when Blizz auto assigns skills is the day we have no choice at all. Until that day we have plenty of choices. The real reward in this game is fun, at least it is for me. There are different builds that play differently. I have tried a few barbarian builds that play differently. Now if they needed different gear to be optimal then you would really have a better game. But that is a change I am looking forward to when they finally fix itemization.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]