Diablo® III

[Guide] MP10 20mil CM Debunking 2.73+ AS Myth

This is the reason I don't participate on Wizard forums lol, I'm going out for an hour tho you're gonna run out of popcorn.


You don't participate here, correct. Or have you ever? It's a bit weird to walk into a locals' bar and say, "Hey, these beers are totally overrated, and I'm here to show you which beers are better because I run a stream. And visit my stream. Here's my stream once again for those who missed it. Watch my stream! Watch my videos!"
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Maybe you should look at the set in action (link in original post) before jumping to conclusion.

As a matter of fact, why build a gimpy completely sub-optimal fake character sheet dps set like yours when I can out farm and out perform your setup for 800mil?

Not everyone buy billion+ gold so maybe you should actually build a 2.73 sets with solid mitigation on a tight budget before calling it 'trivial to hit'?

Let me know if you need more gear advices.


Pretty sure there's one of us here is a credit card warrior and considering my RMAH tab is completely empty, it ain't me.

In any event, no serious person calls 5200 Armor/750 AR/43K HP and 200+ DPS "sub-optimal fake character sheet DPS".


Of course your rm tab is empty, gold is cheaper you know where. With how much you spent on your gear, I can easily build one with 50k more dps. That is where your sub-optimal is at... Why do I have to spell everything out? Attack speed doesn't increase your EB damage or your storm armor active shock damage, or your shard damage... hence using a terrible wand like the one you're using is not true dps... shocking?
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2.21. I threw up in my mouth a little. Maybe he hasn't played since the storm chaser nerf. Ias is still king buddy but I commend you for trying to change the landscape.
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03/18/2013 01:25 PMPosted by Ziss
Attack speed doesn't increase your EB damage or your storm armor active shock damage, or your shard damage... hence using a terrible wand like the one you're using is not true dps... shocking?


Laugh.

Yeah, your P100 is through botting, no question. You don't understand even the basic mechanics of the CM build.
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[quote]
This is the reason I don't participate on Wizard forums


ooo, ooo, fun LOGIC Statement!!!

A) This is the reason you do not participate in the Wizard Forums
B) You do not participate in the Wizard Forums
C) We do not know what we are talking about
D) You do not know what you are talking about
E) You do not have enough information to make an informed statement

You claim A.
If B, then E such as C, and most likely D :(
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I guess the question really is: How optimal is 2.31 or 2.5 with 45% crit on single targets?

That's probably where most of the skepticism comes from. I know that before I got my wiz to 2.73, gold elites were annoying when they were the last ones left.

I think instructing new wizards to go to lower breakpoints (2.31) assume that they have the skill to maneuver around and really let the play ability dictate their success. Pie's guide (which I actually ended up using) allowed me to play in a relatively "worry free" kind of playstyle. Even L2P issues were easily mitigated by gearing decisions that he helped me with (extra EHP...specifically armor).

I think that simply saying that people are giving wrong advice is probably not accurate. The advice given here is usually help new players gear for higher MPs. Newer players aren't used to "outplaying" higher level content so extra mitigation is appreciated.

Obviously if you are a vet in the game, such as yourself Ziss, going for lower IAS with higher damage is extremely plausible. I think you just assume that people can maneuver and play like you and that's probably not fair to the new player...
Edited by Pri#1584 on 3/18/2013 1:37 PM PDT
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still prefer my logic statement.
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I guess the question really is: How optimal is 2.31 or 2.5 with 45% crit on single targets?

That's probably where most of the skepticism comes from. I know that before I got my wiz to 2.73, gold elites were annoying when they were the last ones left.

I think instructing new wizards to go to lower breakpoints (2.31) assume that they have the skill to maneuver around and really let the play ability dictate their success. Pie's guide (which I actually ended up using) allowed me to play in a relatively "worry free" kind of playstyle. Even L2P issues were easily mitigated by gearing decisions that he helped me with (extra EHP...specifically armor).

I think that simply saying that people are giving wrong advice is probably not accurate. The advice given here is usually help new players gear for higher MPs. Newer players aren't used to "outplaying" higher level content so extra mitigation is appreciated.

Obviously if you are a vet in the game, such as yourself Ziss, going for lower IAS with higher damage is extremely plausible. I think you just assume that people can maneuver and play like you and that's probably not fair to the new player...


Nice thought out response.

I would add that Ziss' success has to come from his LS weapon as well. He needs it since his LOH returns are dreadful @ <2.31. But the LS returns from his high DPS weapon "makes" up for it somewhat.

For new commers that want to use CM more as an alternate, they want to do ubers. 2.31 locking or less would be awful for this scenerio, I would always build for 2.73. At the very least 2.51.
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I've watched Ziss farm MP10. He's a skilled player. People can theory craft and sim, but you have to test real results.

There's some value in what he's saying. APS doesn't affect the damage of some of our big hitting abilities (EB, Shards, Shocking Aspect), but what it does affect is proc rate, which affects LOH, AP, CM and SA frequency.

If you were to sim out a SNS spec, let's just say it would be about 35% EB, 25% SA, 15% Shards, 25% WW, in relative damage percentages to the total damage output.

He's advocating DPS is derived primarily from crit, crit damage, main stat because those boost 75% of your damage (EB, SA, Shards), where as gains from IAS only boosts WW, and to some extent SA frequency.

In reality, SNS only really needs IAS to sustain AP, proc CM and LOH recovery based on your overall EHP. His IAS breakpoint works for him, and his play style and his itemization. People shouldn't just knock it because it doesn't compare to the general guidelines on paper.
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28 ticks * 0.525 crit * 0.125 scalar * 19 apoc = 34.9125 AP generated/twister

Something smells funny here. Seems like you would need scoundrel and deep freeze to function, i.e. spam EB like a mofo vs. single target. And no, I'm not going to watch your stream to find out.
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03/18/2013 01:45 PMPosted by ChangBooster
And no, I'm not going to watch your stream to find out.


Why not? It's not like he's going to be able to buy a Porsche if you join his stream. He's a decent guy, he doesn't bite.
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- Diablo III (Wizard)
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@Boozor

Thanks for being more diplomatic than I. Sometimes I just fly off the deep end too quickly

@OP

All I know is that I can stand in the middle of desecrator, plagued, arcane beams....and keep DPS'ing away. Meanwhile, you've lost your freeze lock, you're chasing down kiting enemies, running around arcane, etc. And as soon as you do any of that you've stopped putting down 'nados, you're losing DPS, your CM procs have slowed...and you have to windup again.

Sure, maybe I'm making it sound worse than it is. And there's definitely room to play different styles. But there's more truth to my comments than not. You've been playing a long time...so have I. We both know how to micro around and make it look easy. People gearing from the ground up don't....and my guide (and what we generally preach day in and day out on the forums) makes it more foolproof.

------
Admission: Sorry, I didn't start playing until day three when the game came out. Does that also disqualify me from having an opinion?
Edited by PieHole#1628 on 3/18/2013 1:52 PM PDT
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03/18/2013 01:44 PMPosted by Junger
He's advocating DPS is derived primarily from crit, crit damage, main stat because those boost 75% of your damage (EB, SA, Shards), where as gains from IAS only boosts WW, and to some extent SA frequency.


Look, we know that the canonical mix of stats for basic SNS yields a huge percentage multiplier off of sheet DPS. He definitely gets a big sheet DPS out of his approach...but who the heck knows what his effective DPS actually is?
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03/18/2013 01:50 PMPosted by Ossian
Look, we know that the canonical mix of stats for basic SNS yields a huge percentage multiplier off of sheet DPS. He definitely gets a big sheet DPS out of his approach...but who the heck knows what his effective DPS actually is?


Let's ask :D

Ziss, mind doing a MP9/10 Ghom test and timing it to get your effective DPS?

Best way is to go to the top left corner and let Ghom follow, then pin him there.
Edited by Junger#1623 on 3/18/2013 1:53 PM PDT
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Why not? It's not like he's going to be able to buy a Porsche if you join his stream. He's a decent guy, he doesn't bite.


I already devote quite a lot of time to D3. I play the game and the forums to share ideas/come up with fun builds/help noobs/get advice for myself/etc, don't have time to turn D3 into a tv show too. I'm sure he's a decent guy who doesn't go around biting strangers :P
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I already devote quite a lot of time to D3. I play the game and the forums to share ideas/come up with fun builds/help noobs/get advice for myself/etc, don't have time to turn D3 into a tv show too. I'm sure he's a decent guy who doesn't go around biting strangers :P


It's entertaining imo, it's just like playing with a ground of people on Vent. There's a social aspect to it. He's actually quite helpful to strangers...or at least he was when I watch his stream.
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now i feel bad for writing my logic statement :(
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I will tell this straight away: you can farm MP 10, as in farm, with 2.10 aps. I did it. The DPS was awesome I killed so fast compare to higher aps. The lower your aps is, the higher your real DPS becomes, the higher freeze strength of higher breakpoints don't mean anything if you face 3+ targets, in this situation low aps is far superior.

Troubles come from defensive side, and single target situations. I couldn't tank/freeze !@#$ and had to move quite often. Also single targets run away too often and chasing them is really tiresome. But if you are ok with that, even 2 aps is fine, I think there are many players who don't mind chasing, just make sure you have enough DPS to not chase for too long. Personally I prefer the smooth process higher aps offers, I accept the loss in multiplier just to do continuous DPS without having to move too much or kite.

One more important thing, while I agree that you can /do/ Mp 10 with 10M or 20M, try to use it as your main gear, and farm with it everyday. You will see the problem, your hands will go numb, and eyes become dizzy because everything takes too long to kill. Wiz from high level gear building a cheap set don't understand that the cheap set is not viable in reality because we are human so we can't mash buttons non-stop. I have been there, as a Wiz going up from scratch in EU server, and I really could farm MP 10 with my gear, but I didn't, because no sane person could stand long fights after long fights with 100k DPS in MP 10. I wanted to farm MP 10 right after I reach the 100k mark, but then I realized that I may do one or two runs for fun but to farm repeatedly in MP 10 with 100k DPS is just impossible for normal players. Too much effort for human body. And we all know that after 100k DPS everything will become more and more expensive.

So in conclusion, I have seen many budget builds for MP 10, they make MP 10 "doable", but no way "farmable", unless you have the best tenacity in the world, or you use automated programs.
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In reality, SNS only really needs IAS to sustain AP, proc CM and LOH recovery based on your overall EHP. His IAS breakpoint works for him, and his play style and his itemization. People shouldn't just knock it because it doesn't compare to the general guidelines on paper.


See and I think quite the opposite happened here. Nobody attacked him...however, he did blatantly say that he's had to regear forum guide users and specifically called out Pie which has been very helpful to many noob wizards such as myself.

The real crux of it is this... If you can slap a mob after only freezing once (pretty strong at 400K+ DPS) then yeah sub-optimal attack speed seems to work. As you get more DPS and can burst things down faster you don't need to infinitely freeze them. An intermittent freeze is probably okay. The build, as designed by Ziss, is more of a DPS/SNS where as the functional pure freeze SNS will probably have a difficult time gearing towards highest DPS whilst maintaining near-perfect freeze.

The funny thing here is that it seems as if Ziss is advocating a drop in IAS which seems radical to traditional utility-driven sns who focus on freeze first and DPS second. There are other topics here that have been talking about another method to get to higher DPS...and that is sacrificing EHP stats.

It's interesting that in order to hit top-tier dps ranges, something has to give. In this case, Ziss is saying drop some IAS for DPS stats...other forums have stated drop a little bit of EHP for extra DPS stats.

Interesting indeed...
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- Diablo III (Wizard)
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