Diablo® III

[Guide] MP10 20mil CM Debunking 2.73+ AS Myth

Why not have it all ?

^>^
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Why not have it all ?

^>^


Like you? If yes then I can assume only the 1%-er can have it all lol
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Far from.

Kiza is still the boss imo.
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Still 1%-er. Let's stop hi-jacking Ziss' thread.
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Make the front page yet?

Still got popcorn
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lol i wanna see him farming seigebreaker or megda...
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The myth: CM Wizard needs 2.73+ AS to be optimal
The truth: CM Wizard needs to focus on defense and crit chance first, the rest are gravy


I agree with these statement and I've said them for a while. 2.73 AS, imo, is for sufficient freeze strength against Ubers or to raise survivability. It doesn't necessarily mean the best dps or best setup.

However, I don't feel 2.31 is the optimal APS, I think 2.5 is, and once you get sufficient defensive stats and crit values everyone should aim for at least 2.5 APS. My reason is that you gain about 30% more LoH returns from the jump to 2.5 from 2.31, and you should have a higher single target effective multiplier. Also, 20 APoC is sufficient with ~50% crit to sustain the build against single targets. At 2.31 you need more like 55% crit since you lose about 10% of your tics. For multi targets you won't notice it as much though.

If you do Ghom tests, you should find that 2.5 gives a considerably better multiplier than 2.31, at least with the stats you mention. Even 2.73 might give a better multiplier if your crit is too low to sustain against single target. However, in my experience, with 45-50% CC and 20 APoC the 2.5 breakpoint gives a better multiplier than 2.31 or even 2.73. The 2.73 is lower because you don't really gain much from the extra IAS aside from better freeze and LoH gains, both of which don't increase your dps. Also your latency or lack of skill presses registering tends to be the limiting factor in how much you get out of the extra CM procs, which is minimal. At 2.31 you won't be able to sustain against a single target so the effective dps goes down considerably.

You are welcome to make the argument that for besides single target, 2.31 works just fine, and I'll agree. However, unless you really like kiting around yellow mobs or you plan to skip elites in general, single target still has some impact, and with all other things being equal I'd say single target should be the deciding factor. That combined with the improved LoH returns and increased survivability from more frequent DS refreshes makes 2.5 more optimal than 2.31, imo, especially at lower gear levels.
Edited by Loroese#1415 on 3/18/2013 2:33 PM PDT
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Sigh, I apologize for defending myself this thread is out of control.

As a final note, this is a guide to farm MP10, not single target DPS.

The end game of current D3 is to farm MP10 as fast as possible so you can get nice loot, demonic essence and upgrade your gear, not kill Ghoom.

If you want to kill Ghoom, attack speed is the way to go because you can't proc enough CM to reduce your cooldowns with low attack speed. Been that way since the co-eff nerf few patches ago.

Also, I believe this IS the better way to build for beginners because you're tanky enough to take several hits which leaves more room for error. The glass (no cannon cause the low true dps) high attack speed build is very unforgiving in comparison.

I'm not here to argue with the forum trolls that twists my intentions and words but hopefully this will help some of the newer players.
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That combined with the improved LoH returns and increased survivability from more frequent DS refreshes makes 2.5 more optimal than 2.31, imo, especially at lower gear levels.


2.5 is what I go for on 300mil+ sets. You're pretty much spot on.

The reason you can't get 2.5 for cheaper sets is because you really want to get an AR witching hour with decent crit damage for that breakpoint and they're not affordable for super budget sets.
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What runes exactly are you using in your video Ziss? Must've missed that part of it...
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03/18/2013 02:37 PMPosted by Ziss
As a final note, this is a guide to farm MP10, not single target DPS.


It makes absolutely no sense to "Farm MP10" with the gear set you are suggesting. Any efficiency measure you choose--XP, DE, or Legendaries per hour--will be lower at MP10 given the gear you are suggesting than a lower MP level.
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03/18/2013 02:47 PMPosted by Trivan
What runes exactly are you using in your video Ziss? Must've missed that part of it...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_profilepage&v=7fMGznHdYhA#t=3351s

That one shows the full skill page.
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11 Human Paladin
0
Posts: 1,131
03/18/2013 02:37 PMPosted by Ziss
Sigh, I apologize for defending myself this thread is out of control.


Don't act the victim now. Defending your argument is fine, you attacked people and other guides, while using an attitude that suggested you're the only smart person around here. If you truly don't understand how that caused this topic to degrade, you have the social skills of a 3 year old.

As a final note, this is a guide to farm MP10, not single target DPS.


Single target happens in normal gameplay with gold elites. Since single target is the weakest aspect of CM (less AP returned, less control, less damage, less LoH, etc) it makes sense to look at this. If a CM build falls apart against single targets, a lot of people will likely not be interested.

The end game of current D3 is to farm MP10 as fast as possible so you can get nice loot, demonic essence and upgrade your gear, not kill Ghoom.


End game is farming, the MP level you pick depends on your gear. If you can survive in MP10, but take minutes to kill elites, and constantly have to play very defensively or die often, you're wasting time. Want to do it anyway for the challenge? Sure, go ahead, but don't sit here and call it efficient, because it's not. In the time someone in crappy gear has found and killed one elite in MP10, the guy running MP3 has cleared a map with 4 elite packs.

I'm not here to argue with the forum trolls that twists my intentions and words but hopefully this will help some of the newer players.


You're not here to argue, you just happened to call everybody else wrong and implied they were stupid? I hope hope for the sake of new players none of them actually read this "guide" and did MP10 right away.
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That combined with the improved LoH returns and increased survivability from more frequent DS refreshes makes 2.5 more optimal than 2.31, imo, especially at lower gear levels.


2.5 is what I go for on 300mil+ sets. You're pretty much spot on.

The reason you can't get 2.5 for cheaper sets is because you really want to get an AR witching hour with decent crit damage for that breakpoint and they're not affordable for super budget sets.


My line of thinking for beginner builds is you gear EHP for your DPS to a degree. If you're building a 20 mil set but trying to run MP10, you might as well just use prismatic armor since your dps is going to be terrible anyway and you're probably running with a group. For solo farming, if you only have 80k dps, you'll likely only be running MP5-6, which doesn't take much more than 500-600 resists, and obtaining those while hitting 2.5 isn't too bad. Still, 20 mil might be a bit low on the budget but 300 mil is definitely much higher than needed for a 2.5 APS set. I'd say more like 50-100 mil, though I honestly haven't tried making any budget builds.
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That combined with the improved LoH returns and increased survivability from more frequent DS refreshes makes 2.5 more optimal than 2.31, imo, especially at lower gear levels.


2.5 is what I go for on 300mil+ sets. You're pretty much spot on.

The reason you can't get 2.5 for cheaper sets is because you really want to get an AR witching hour with decent crit damage for that breakpoint and they're not affordable for super budget sets.


Yeah 2.51 is more for 40M budget, and about half of that is spent on the AR WH ! But then I think it's worth the extra 20M really, not that much of budget difference, but big performance difference imo also you don't really need decent CD, even 35 CD can do the trick as we don't focus on DPS.
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Even with 20ms ping, I don't understand how anyone could lock under the 2.73 level.

(by lock i mean prevent 1 or more elites from spawning affixes)
Edited by flyinghamsta#1753 on 3/18/2013 3:18 PM PDT
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CM real dps is a function of sheet dps and crit chance.

APS just keeps us alive in the form of nova and loh.
In a perfect world with low latency higher APS does produce more real dps for full spin up battles.
I believe 2.73+ is needed for ubers because you dont have deep freeze, I also think nat set is a good source of crit for uber builds.

In keep2 farming 2.5 is fine. 2.3 works but you hit times when you wish nova was off of cooldown and it was not. 2.3, 2.5 works on single target rares in real farming if one maintains deep freeze thus one should seek out a deep freeze reset if they lose it during a battle.

Also conduit can replace a apoc source for keep2 farming.
my real dps model:
http://s24.postimage.org/lrz4i506t/dpsrating.png
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nice read
i love the bad blood you all high wizards have to each other :D
if it was a true wizard academy you'd all be dedicated to heavy sabotage, thievery, backstabbing, framing, or plain murder
too much telvanni
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Nah, we're real collegial, actually Matias. A lot of good sharing of information.
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03/18/2013 02:59 PMPosted by Ziss
What runes exactly are you using in your video Ziss? Must've missed that part of it...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_profilepage&v=7fMGznHdYhA#t=3351s

That one shows the full skill page.


Thank you kindly.
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