Diablo® III

After Playing HOTS...Really? *This* Is How You Boss!

The problem with D3 is the utter failure to tie damage with mechanics. Did that molten mob just run through you? Sorry, you're dead. Proper mechanics should be like the Belial fight. Give players visual cues, and more importantly the chance to do something (as opposed to equip something) to mitigate incoming damage.

Because the mechanics in D3 are so bad, we've had to resort to just stacking life, armor and resist. It's the same thing with DPS. Since all the proc stuff is severely gimped, we're reduced to stacking cc, cd and asi. The end result of all this? Combat is reduced to utterly boring tank and spank affairs.

Trying to simplify things was the worst decision JW ever made. Complexity is good. Complexity makes things interesting.


I agree completely regading mechanics and have been saying it since Beta. The changes to Damage Reflection were a good start.

On the other hand - I disagree regarding complexity. Complexity on it's own is not a good thing. Far too much of being good at D2 involved knowing how silly arcane little systems worked and being penalized for experimenting and making mistakes.

You can have a game that is simple to learn and hard to master, and be amazing. IE: The difference between SC1 and SC2.
Reply Quote
Posts: 1,841
View profile
deleted
Edited by Icon0clast#1542 on 3/12/2013 10:58 PM PDT
Reply Quote
Posts: 5,087
The problem with D3 is the utter failure to tie damage with mechanics. Did that molten mob just run through you? Sorry, you're dead. Proper mechanics should be like the Belial fight. Give players visual cues, and more importantly the chance to do something (as opposed to equip something) to mitigate incoming damage.

Because the mechanics in D3 are so bad, we've had to resort to just stacking life, armor and resist. It's the same thing with DPS. Since all the proc stuff is severely gimped, we're reduced to stacking cc, cd and asi. The end result of all this? Combat is reduced to utterly boring tank and spank affairs.

Trying to simplify things was the worst decision JW ever made. Complexity is good. Complexity makes things interesting.


I agree completely regading mechanics and have been saying it since Beta. The changes to Damage Reflection were a good start.

On the other hand - I disagree regarding complexity. Complexity on it's own is not a good thing. Far too much of being good at D2 involved knowing how silly arcane little systems worked and being penalized for experimenting and making mistakes.

You can have a game that is simple to learn and hard to master, and be amazing. IE: The difference between SC1 and SC2.


First, I agree with the quote inside the quote (Inception anyone?).

Although Blizzard did add these visual cues or attack animation in which a rockworm pops out of the ground or a fallen commander (?) jumps while swinging back his sword for a massive strike, I find that the little damaging attacks are a bit too damaging in some cases. Take the molten example: before being nerfed the molten trail was dealing a ton of damage, after the nerf it's a bit fine. A constant aoe following an enemy should deal very little damage as it is aoe and constant. The molten explosion however can be dodged and "charges" up before exploding. High damage is fully understandable here.

The plagued affix however has been buffed to deal a bit too much damage and it also stacks which is deceiving to the player. If anything the plague pools should deal little damage (constant aoe yes?) and perhaps have the monsters surrounded by a cloud of infection gases and flies or something which would be another constant aoe damage. So two small damaging things but if you are in a plague pool and the enemy is near you the damage would then add up. If the poison aura is too much like molten it could perhaps be a periodically spawned poison cloud which slowly drifts around randomly before disappearing dealing constant aoe damage (small amount of damage).

Visual cues and traps should deal a ton of damage (act 3 fire wall has no cues and should be fixed to have one - act 1 cleavers should deal a lot of damage). Normal attacks should deal less damage, enemies that just deal normal attacks should either have more life or be in greater quantities to swarm around you.

Complexity:
This depends on what is being made complex and how much complexity is being added. Skill runes is an illusion of complexity where only 1-2 of the runes are chosen while the rest will never be used (in most cases).

When it comes to dealing damage we only have two options. Black (non elemental) weapons with elemental % added or any of the other damage types. Diablo 2 we had proc on hits which actually did damage such as crushing blow, chain lightning and so on.

Skill Tree vs. unlimited skill respec. Both are good but the latter kills replay value in the game. Their is no point in saving gear for another barbarian since 1: you can change your skills and 2: you don't want to make another barbarian when you have one at plvl 30 or something.

Skill Trees can be annoying only when first experimenting on a new build (in which the build may be horrible or you mess up), or if the skill itself is badly designed. Having no respecs can also be a bit frustrating if you character isn't working out. Both skill options have their up and down sides imo (I like Titan's Quest's dual mastery in this case - though TQ had some issues as well which mods helped).
Edited by DeMasked#1233 on 3/12/2013 11:34 PM PDT
Reply Quote
03/12/2013 04:34 PMPosted by vexorian
Great. Now we have WoW accounts posting Starcraft 2 reviews in Diablo 3 forums.


You'll see a Starcraft profile on my posts soon too mon, so stay tuned, I be puttin da protoss back into da ert before ya know it....
Edited by Traveler#1226 on 3/12/2013 11:40 PM PDT
Reply Quote
03/12/2013 06:35 PMPosted by HawkerandCo
Great. Now we have WoW accounts posting Starcraft 2 reviews in Diablo 3 forums.


He just rolled trifecta; how does this make you feel?


i found this quite funny how you related this to trifecta. just wow.. good effort though
Reply Quote
The "boss battles" in "Supreme" mission are just watered down versions of boss battles in D3. So to say "this is how they should do it in D3" is bizarre.

One battle consists of a dude who puts red circles on the ground that you don't want to stand in, and then he lays eggs which spawn adds if they're not killed quickly. Rinse, repeat. Sometimes he does a diablo-esque beam attack that kills you quickly if you stand in it.

Next guy has a charge attack that knocks units back/up, and which summons adds. He also spits acid.

Next guy lumbers around and summons dozens of adds which act like very slow acting, slow moving land mines. Imagine the act 3 banelings, if they moved very slowly and stopped for several seconds before blowing up.

Last guy is basically a watered down version of belial-- giant, stationary, and he makes portions of his platform red, several secords before an AoE attack hits those spots. occasionally he does a very wide, very damaging lightning breath that you need to stay out of.

For an RTS, these are very well crafted, but they're primitive even compared to D3. I mean they're literally watered down versions of already existing encounters like Belial and Skeleton King. More likely than not, these encounters were lifted from D3 and/or World of Warcraft.
Edited by VoxDeus#1305 on 3/13/2013 3:45 AM PDT
Reply Quote
Posts: 5,087
The "boss battles" in "Supreme" mission are just watered down versions of boss battles in D3. So to say "this is how they should do it in D3" is bizarre.

One battle consists of a dude who puts red circles on the ground that you don't want to stand in, and then he lays eggs which spawn adds if they're not killed quickly. Rinse, repeat. Sometimes he does a diablo-esque beam attack that kills you quickly if you stand in it.

Next guy has a charge attack that knocks units back/up, and which summons adds. He also spits acid.

Next guy lumbers around and summons dozens of adds which act like very slow acting, slow moving land mines. Imagine the act 3 banelings, if they moved very slowly and stopped for several seconds before blowing up.

Last guy is basically a watered down version of belial-- giant, stationary, and he makes portions of his platform red, several secords before an AoE attack hits those spots. occasionally he does a very wide, very damaging lightning breath that you need to stay out of.

For an RTS, these are very well crafted, but they're primitive even compared to D3. I mean they're literally watered down versions of already existing encounters like Belial and Skeleton King. More likely than not, these encounters were lifted from D3 and/or World of Warcraft.


Yea after watching the play through on this mission I agree that OP is hyping it up a bit too much.

However that doesn't mean bosses in D3 can't be improved.

Skeleton King could have 2 summoning towers that rise from the ground which periodically summon skeletons (tower would be invulnerable till SK dies). Perhaps have skeletons clamber up that middle chasm place to attack you. Perhaps let SK have a move which turns a skeleton red or something and then it explodes.

Azmodan's fight: Could also include more adds since he's a GENERAL. Having those demon tower things pop up once in awhile is lame since they take 2-3 hit to kill. If anything have like 5 demon towers pop up around the map (shown on mini map).

Spider Queen (act 1) could have used more spider adds that either drop from the ceiling or spawn out of the tunnels (little ones, web throwing ones, maybe some of those massive plague pool ones). Could also give Spider Queen more abilities like create 4 desecrator pools at the same time or have plague pools randomly spawn in the map (but disappear after awhile).

Just a few ideas to make boss fights a little more interesting then they are right now.
Edited by DeMasked#1233 on 3/13/2013 11:31 PM PDT
Reply Quote
Blizzard Employee
Posts: 2,279
We love some of our boss fights (like Belial, Butcher, and Diablo), but agree that some of them could be better. We’re certainly interested in hearing feedback about what you think could make a boss fight more fun, and would like to hear any examples you may have. The more specific, the better. The examples can come from any game, but if you’re referencing HOTS, then please try to avoid sharing any spoilers, if you can.

It’s worth noting that opinions are probably going to vary quite a bit on this. Some players may like the idea of needing to tether a charging boss to a heavy object to slow him down, (even if the strength of those tethers scaled with a hero’s power) while other players may find the mechanic a frustrating chore after a few times. Something else to consider while offering suggestions is that different games are going to have different limitations when it comes to bosses. For example in Diablo III, the encounters have to work with heroes that have different skills and power levels. I bring this up because not every game has to consider this, and designers can tune a boss knowing exactly what a player's damage output, skill selection, and health pool is going to be.
Reply Quote
Posts: 16,817
We love some of our boss fights (like Belial, Butcher, and Diablo), but agree that some of them could be better. We’re certainly interested in hearing feedback about what you think could make a boss fight more fun, and would like to hear any examples you may have. The more specific, the better. The examples can come from any game, but if you’re referencing HOTS, then please try to avoid sharing any spoilers, if you can.

It’s worth noting that opinions are probably going to vary quite a bit on this. Some players may like the idea of needing to tether a charging boss to a heavy object to slow him down, (even if the strength of those tethers scaled with a hero’s power) while other players may find the mechanic a frustrating chore after a few times. Something else to consider while offering suggestions is that different games are going to have different limitations when it comes to bosses. For example in Diablo III, the encounters have to work with heroes that have different skills and power levels. I bring this up because not every game has to consider this, and designers can tune a boss knowing exactly what a player's damage output, skill selection, and health pool is going to be.


Just as you mentioned, Belial and Butcher (and Diablo) are interesting fights. The Butcher posses strong attack that can be dodged. Same with Belial and Diablo. If you take a look at Azmodan, his Void Circle spawns right under you a lot. His minions are weak and the summoning stone is no treat.

That's just my idea, but perhaps the fight should have more and more void circles spawning, but away from Azmodan, but slowly coming in. You will have less and less room to dodge his fireball and rain of corpse.

His minions need to be stronger, and he needs to summoning stones are too weak.
Reply Quote
Izual definitely needs work. At the moment, it's basically a freeze-fest. Maybe change the freeze to something that hinders you but still lets you do things, like slow (although that might make it too much like the Act 3 keywarden).
Reply Quote

Yea after watching the play through on this mission I agree that OP is hyping it up a bit too much.

However that doesn't mean bosses in D3 can't be improved.

Skeleton King could have 2 summoning towers that rise from the ground which periodically summon skeletons (tower would be invulnerable till SK dies). Perhaps have skeletons clamber up that middle chasm place to attack you. Perhaps let SK have a move which turns a skeleton red or something and then it explodes.

Azmodan's fight: Could also include more adds since he's a GENERAL. Having those demon tower things pop up once in awhile is lame since they take 2-3 hit to kill. If anything have like 5 demon towers pop up around the map (shown on mini map).

Spider Queen (act 1) could have used more spider adds that either drop from the ceiling or spawn out of the tunnels. Could also give Spider Queen more abilities like create 4 desecrator pools at the same time or have plague pools randomly spawn in the map (but disappear after awhile).

Just a few ideas to make boss fights a little more interesting then they are right now.


[quote]The "boss battles" in "Supreme" mission are just watered down versions of boss battles in D3. So to say "this is how they should do it in D3" is bizarre.

One battle consists of a dude who puts red circles on the ground that you don't want to stand in, and then he lays eggs which spawn adds if they're not killed quickly. Rinse, repeat. Sometimes he does a diablo-esque beam attack that kills you quickly if you stand in it.

Next guy has a charge attack that knocks units back/up, and which summons adds. He also spits acid.

Next guy lumbers around and summons dozens of adds which act like very slow acting, slow moving land mines. Imagine the act 3 banelings, if they moved very slowly and stopped for several seconds before blowing up.

Last guy is basically a watered down version of belial-- giant, stationary, and he makes portions of his platform red, several secords before an AoE attack hits those spots. occasionally he does a very wide, very damaging lightning breath that you need to stay out of.

For an RTS, these are very well crafted, but they're primitive even compared to D3. I mean they're literally watered down versions of already existing encounters like Belial and Skeleton King. More likely than not, these encounters were lifted from D3 and/or World of Warcraft.


Yea after watching the play through on this mission I agree that OP is hyping it up a bit too much.

However that doesn't mean bosses in D3 can't be improved.

Skeleton King could have 2 summoning towers that rise from the ground which periodically summon skeletons (tower would be invulnerable till SK dies). Perhaps have skeletons clamber up that middle chasm place to attack you. Perhaps let SK have a move which turns a skeleton red or something and then it explodes.

Azmodan's fight: Could also include more adds since he's a GENERAL. Having those demon tower things pop up once in awhile is lame since they take 2-3 hit to kill. If anything have like 5 demon towers pop up around the map (shown on mini map).

Spider Queen (act 1) could have used more spider adds that either drop from the ceiling or spawn out of the tunnels. Could also give Spider Queen more abilities like create 4 desecrator pools at the same time or have plague pools randomly spawn in the map (but disappear after awhile).

Just a few ideas to make boss fights a little more interesting then they are right now.


Wow, I REALLY like that version of King Leoric.
I alwyas felt that Azmodan battle was really dissapointing after facing Belial.
Diablo fight is cool, but the first itime i face him I thoight he would have MORE spells of the seven lords of hell...

EXAMPLE:

Diablo
-Andarie'ls Poison Nova
- Mephis electric Orb

Shdow Diablo
-Duriel's Freeze Aura
- Baal's Mirror Image

Pissed Off Diablo (after killing his shadow in the realm of terror)
- Azmodan's Corrosive Void
- Belial's Tri attack ( from the First form of Belial, before he transforms)
AND
C'mon, MAKE Diablo's Lightning Inferno really SCARY, I remember back in the days of DIABLO II, His Lightning INferno was REALLY scary, make it powerful :)
Edited by Thanatos#1349 on 3/13/2013 9:03 PM PDT
Reply Quote
I'm really looking forward to Heart of the Swarm. Haven't picked it up yet, but I'll get there.

I want to presume that part of why Starcraft 2's bosses would be much more mechanically varied is because it is built on an RTS, so it's drawing from the player's understanding of strategy and it's unique units. The players will always have particular units, so the fights can be designed around those abilities.

With Diablo, however, the things that can be assumed between the different character classes are far less, so most of the mechanics focus on positioning and additional spawns since that's really the only thing in common.

Diablo's focus on fast-paced combat leans away from situations that are too complicated to be taken in at a moment's notice, but that doesn't mean the fights can't be interesting.

I personally find it somewhat difficult to judge Diablo when playing now, because I've done the fights so often, and my defenses are so much better that they overcome the mechanics of the fight, making the engaging struggle die down somewhat.

So here's one possible suggestion : make a mode or difficulty level where the power of the boss's abilities is scaled according to the player. Issues with this are, of course, the player would have to be prevented from changing equipment, it assumes only a single player to balance around, but it could allow players to re-experience those fights "as intended" rather than rolling over them.

Unfortunately, that doesn't add to the mechanical richness. I can't think of specific games, but there are some patterns that come to mind, such as various attack points that become vulnerable or unvulnerable, are defended, or are the focus of damage. I suppose the simplest example of this was Final Fantasy VI's first boss, the snail which you had to attack it's head, and if you attack it's shell when it withdraws, a powerful counter-attack is unleashed on the player. Then again, that sounds more like ideas for a whole new boss fight, so maybe not quite what you're looking for improving current bosses.
Reply Quote
the boss fights in d3 are actually pretty good imo

especially belial

diablo him/herself is too long with the cutscenes...its seriously a waste of time to even do it

i would like them all to be significantly harder...maybe 2-3 monster power levels above what you have selected..(can go to +12 on MP10) and greater chance for better drop..
Edited by unholy#1141 on 3/13/2013 9:27 PM PDT
Reply Quote
I disagree that console games are dumbed down. Legend of Zelda - Twilight Princess had EPIC boss battles. Each one was totally unique and it took time to figure out how to beat the boss. You had to win with skill, not buying something. The boss fights were an order of magnitude better than anything in diablo and it came out 6 years ealier.

I love this game, but not for the game mechanics. It's fun to collect stuff and build my character, and the slot machine mechanics were exciting. Multiplayer, chat, and this website was a nice touch too. However, if they had actually made a game with great gameplay, it would have been the best game ever, but as other people have pointed out, its pretty much point the mouse at the enemy, if you die, go to auction house and buy more gear ... try again until you don't die. Sure there is some skill involved in the game, but not much, don't kid yourself.
Reply Quote
The final boss battle, wherein the player is transported into another dimension, Diablo should not disappear when she summons your clones. I think it'll be more epic fight.
Reply Quote
I posted a topic on bosses and how they should be improved... no sense retyping it: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/8196602135
Reply Quote
We love some of our boss fights (like Belial, Butcher, and Diablo), but agree that some of them could be better. We’re certainly interested in hearing feedback about what you think could make a boss fight more fun, and would like to hear any examples you may have. The more specific, the better. The examples can come from any game, but if you’re referencing HOTS, then please try to avoid sharing any spoilers, if you can.

It’s worth noting that opinions are probably going to vary quite a bit on this. Some players may like the idea of needing to tether a charging boss to a heavy object to slow him down, (even if the strength of those tethers scaled with a hero’s power) while other players may find the mechanic a frustrating chore after a few times. Something else to consider while offering suggestions is that different games are going to have different limitations when it comes to bosses. For example in Diablo III, the encounters have to work with heroes that have different skills and power levels. I bring this up because not every game has to consider this, and designers can tune a boss knowing exactly what a player's damage output, skill selection, and health pool is going to be.


They're far too simple for being higher than Hell difficulty if you ask me, even on hell it's not on par with what I expect it to be.
It's supposed to get harder and harder, but it doesn't even get harder.

There's SO much things you can change quite fast and easy.
Reply Quote
one way to make them better would be as simple as making them drop better loot....like really, diablo on MP5 nets me a crap rare with loads of blues..
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]