Diablo® III

After Playing HOTS...Really? *This* Is How You Boss!

Let's bring certain boss to be able to linger around the dungeon chasing players. While they are in dungeon they are unkillable. Killable only when player reach the boss room for the real boss fight. Ofc the boss must be menacing enough to make players feel they are being cornered (hence avoid fighting the boss) when in the dungeon (use fog of war, Boss activating dungeon traps, Labyrinth maze like maps, sound indicator, etc).

Edit add:
I feel sometimes boss characters need to project "terror" like feelings. This is especially true when I just start D3 inferno as a DH, each corner of the map (as in act 3 inside the keep) feels menacing as you know that it only took 1 hit to get my DH killed, and those Soul Lasher elites are very challenging. Though sadly the bosses didn't project those feelings, and with the past few patches, inferno lost that feeling.
Edited by NuEloS#1547 on 3/13/2013 11:13 PM PDT
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03/12/2013 04:33 PMPosted by Veltora
I think this is valid feedback. +1

sounds like it is. also sounds like SC2 has an identity crisis, and probably sucks.

speaking from the standpoint of someone who doesn't own SC2, and likes my RTSs as spammy and micro-free as possible. had enough of it with WC3 and the direction various C&Cs have taken.
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I would like to see a portal where you fight all 3 of the keywardens (or 4 if you want to include the guy with the plans) all at once. Blizz can buff them or weaken them for balancing purposes, but you get the gist.
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*sigh*

Boss fights typically get overlooked in D3, probably because more important game mechanics like itemization, character development/customization, and questing, are so bad.

But, I'm glad you brought it up OP. Boss fights in D3 are, well, effin terrible. If a boss needs an introduction from maghda, azmodan, or themselves, then it's automatically a super cliched, roll your eyes terrible encounter. Sadly, there are many, many of these in D3.

Here are some quick tips to the developers that can instantly improve the quality of boss fights.

1. Skeleton king shouldn't talk. His voice and lines are terrible. I think it's best if he just didn't speak at all. He should summon more skeletons.

2. Siege breaker should not be the super cliched boss fight that I described above. Instead, siege breakers should be random encounters out on the battle fields of act 3. Minimum one encounter per playthrough, but can come across up to 3-4, at different times, per play through. Would increase the "epic" feel Blizzard so desperately went for in act 3.

3. more random encounters in general, throughout all the acts.
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Azmodan damage should be increased. It's not funny seeing how even my DH can stand on the pool without care (MP7) and killed azmodan just by evading the big fireball (with SS). Azmodan Pool and corspe rain idea are interesting, while the rest of azmodan attacks are lame.

I remembered how when D3 first launched, many new players struggle at Inferno act3 Azmodan's pools (they didn't understand LoH, Resist, aspd, movspeed), and honestly, it was fun dodging those pools with only 7% movspeed bonus from a cheap rare boots, at those time I can't help but takes first few hit as the pool suddenly appeared close to me and I lack the movspeed or discipline to evade, and this really brought the tension to the glass like DH.

Pools like those are meant to be evaded, not to be tanked.

Edit Add:
1. Skeleton king shouldn't talk. His voice and lines are terrible. I think it's best if he just didn't speak at all. He should summon more skeletons.


Diablo, Belial, Azmodan also need to keep their mouth shut, and instead do more Demon-like action.
Edited by NuEloS#1547 on 3/14/2013 12:11 AM PDT
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Wow, I REALLY like that version of King Leoric.
I alwyas felt that Azmodan battle was really dissapointing after facing Belial.
Diablo fight is cool, but the first itime i face him I thoight he would have MORE spells of the seven lords of hell...

EXAMPLE:

Diablo
-Andarie'ls Poison Nova
- Mephis electric Orb

Shdow Diablo
-Duriel's Freeze Aura
- Baal's Mirror Image

Pissed Off Diablo (after killing his shadow in the realm of terror)
- Azmodan's Corrosive Void
- Belial's Tri attack ( from the First form of Belial, before he transforms)
AND
C'mon, MAKE Diablo's Lightning Inferno really SCARY, I remember back in the days of DIABLO II, His Lightning INferno was REALLY scary, make it powerful :)


Thanks for the compliment!

A few things I'd add to your Diablo end fight:
Baal Mirror Image: 3 mirror images appear and all "Diablos" teleport to different sides of the map. Mirror images won't have access to all skills and what skills they have will deal far less damage (as usual0.

Azmodan: Perhaps instead have the corpse rain attack with bodies lit on fire or better yet falling angels lit on fire lol. Just an idea.

Belial: Instead have poison meteors fall down everywhere. They would be far easier to dodge then in Belials little boss room, but if you get hit obviously they'd deal a lot of damage.

I also like you idea of splitting up these abilities in the three different phases. Or make it randomized so you don't know what you'll be facing in each of the phases. Would add to replay value.

03/13/2013 08:39 PMPosted by Grimiku
We love some of our boss fights (like Belial, Butcher, and Diablo), but agree that some of them could be better. We’re certainly interested in hearing feedback about what you think could make a boss fight more fun, and would like to hear any examples you may have.


Check one post higher then your post. I have a few examples and will probably add more. Like Magdha's fight... where are her helping cultists? Shouldn't they be teleporting in the arena to lend her their aid? Or have those flying insects fly around shooting their deadly pestilence or something (she DOES have them on her shoulders...).

Zoltun Kulle have those imp traps pop up during the fight. Have those earth elemental guys burrow out of the ground to help their master. Plenty of options (skill wise ZK is fine imo).

Siege Breaker could have demon soldiers pour out from behind him and those demonic flyers fly into the arena once in awhile so that players have to move around more in order to not get swamped or to pick off ranged enemies.

Cydea could have ghouls clamber up the sides or the succubi flying in.

Adds make fights a little more interesting and in some cases using adds is great. Obviously having too many boss fights with adds would get repetitive, but I think some bosses should really have some to liven the fight up a little.
Edited by DeMasked#1233 on 3/13/2013 11:30 PM PDT
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I think this might be the right time to post this up also.

I would like it if certain normal mobs have more skills on them, and they should be clear indicator when they are going to used it (like the sand shark updates on Act 2). Just seeing most of them auto-attacking or shooting few projectiles is not enough.

In this regard, act 4 enemy is satisfactory in diversity and abilities,
though the mobs that fall from the sky should deal area damage upon it's landing.
And the angels (including Tyrael) should be able to do more than just auto-attacking.

-------------

Azmodan Laser, should deal more damage and added 4 more layers. One homing (as in right now), the 4 other laser either chase other player, or protect azmodan from player's approach (as in create layers of laser barriers.

Siegebreaker ability to eat player (as in the Video of D3 gameplay before D3 official launch) should be brought back. And Siegebreaker should be normal Very powerful mobs, instead of boss.
Edited by NuEloS#1547 on 3/14/2013 12:18 AM PDT
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I think first we need to look at the fights and see what they are and how they work. What mechanics are all too common? Which mechanics don't happen but could? Which mechanics are common but lackluster in some way and/or how can they be improved?

Captain Daltyn has a few adds and I guess is mainly just a melee only boss? He does have a frozen attack as well apparently. Yet, he seems so pathetically easy to kill it doesn't even matter in my mind. I think Blizzard could have used more resources to flesh this first encounter out better somehow.

Mira Eamon is another boss like Captain Daltyn that does nothing of note and seems to have a ranged poison dart attack and occasionally pukes up stuff. Nothing stood out here as engaging nor made me strategize in anyway.

Chancellor Eamon only does a siphon attack which seems to slow you.

Skeleton King teleports, summons adds, and does massive cleave, and at times a spinning strike.

Araneae pops up ever 1/3 of health or so and calls adds when you manage to get her done some more (which is very or too similar in many respects to the Maghda fight). She also spits out a web to slow you, a pool of venom to damage you, summons small spiderlings, and supposedly has the plagued affix.

Warden...adds, molten explosion when killed...in fact fight was so lackluster I can't even remember.

Butcher has no adds, uses a Get Over Here attack, uses a frontal cone attack, and the ground is on fire in different locations. I have to say this fight many times had my heart racing! It's probably okay as it is.

Shatterbone - I have no idea where this guy even is. Maybe I stumbled across him once, is he still in the game?

Maghda already mentioned as she has adds every 1/4 health and does a little bubble thing while periodically casting some kind of weird flower attack that does damage only if it hits you. Very boring fight in my opinion!

Gavin The Thief - All I know is he is so easy to kill I don't even really notice his mechanics. Are there any to this guy?

Zolten Kulle has two big adds, teleports around if I recall right, and does a aoe type attack. Forgettable fight in my opinion as I don't even recall much of it.

Belial is fricking awesome! There's nothing like eventually seeing this huge evil douche pop up and the entire surround area change as well. This fight builds up in an interesting sequence with adds first, then you fight him before he changes with his frontal attack while doing a number of other things. When you finally get him down to 1/4 health I think it is a whole new can of worms opens up! And he's HUGE! He does a smash attack, a big breath attack, and the pools of poison require you to move around and keep you engaged! This is good stuff.

Larder is a crazy boss in that you have the adds at times but he also spawns those gas clouds. This used to be a hard fight but now is rather nonengaging or exciting due to the nerfs to damage. He just feels incomplete like he could use a little something more.

SeigeBreaker Assault Beast does a charge at times, Leg Stomp, Three Hit Mini Charge, and a grab and throw. Seems like this fight was once harder but is missing something overall.

Cydaea shoots poison bolts, throws down a slowing web, and also a spider pit that does some damage and spawns more adds. Fight seems lackluster.

Azmodan in my opinion is pretty nice. He spawns the pools of blood, has a laser attack, belly flops, summons demon gates, and even throws a meteor of fire at you. This fight used to have its Oh Crap moments before we all just dps'd the crud out of it and ignored most mechanics.

Iskatu - seems to do nothing really except hit you and spawn massive heaps of adds that can overwhelm you if you don't aoe and just smash past this part.

Rakanoth - Cleave, Teleport, Summons Minions, Blade Strike, and Volley (which is his massive aoe attack) are all his abilities. This fight doesn't really require you to utilize the pillars as you can easily withstand the damage if you have enough armor, AR, dodge, and/or vitality.

Izual - Charge, Melee Attack, Frost Bombs, Summons Minnions, and a Frost Explosion after 1/2 health.

Diablo I think is interesting enough honestly.
Edited by googoogaga#1998 on 3/14/2013 12:45 AM PDT
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03/13/2013 08:39 PMPosted by Grimiku
We love some of our boss fights (like Belial, Butcher, and Diablo), but agree that some of them could be better. We’re certainly interested in hearing feedback about what you think could make a boss fight more fun, and would like to hear any examples you may have. The more specific, the better. The examples can come from any game, but if you’re referencing HOTS, then please try to avoid sharing any spoilers, if you can.


First off, bosses need to actually be guaranteed to drop something unique or good (whether or not it is for your character's class or not).

Secondly, boss fights (with the possible exception of higher MP level Inferno, which I think should be difficult) should be a challenge, not a frustration. Skill combined with speed and wits should allow you to make up for lack of gear. When I fight Belial, or in some ways Rakanoth in inferno.. it just feels like a gear check or HP check.. just like treasure goblins are a frustrating damage or DPS check (seriously, why give them invulnerability to control effects right before they leave? lame... :P).. Anyway getting back to bosses.

Thirdly, something needs to be done about key wardens.. I haven't received more than 1 key so far.. I don't get why we need to build up NV stacks to 5 to have any chance to get certain items like plans or keys.. but that seems to be the case and even then it is difficult (for me at least). To top it off, they seem too random. I want to randomly encounter Uber Diablo (which I only saw once in LoD and some jerk hostiled me and wouldn't let me kill him.. : /)... I don't want to randomly encounter an unimportant key guard that rarely drops the one thing I want off it..

Fourth, the spider queen down in the tunnels is a lame boss. The spiders should be more sparse and get thicker and thicker until you get to the end of the tunnel with the boss. Then while fighting the boss (maybe not in normal difficulty but in higher difficulties) it shouldn't go through the cycle of running away while you fight its minions.. no... it should summon its minions (and more of them) periodically during the fight.. this fight should be slightly more difficult and much much more rewarding.. I mean we save someone's life and she doesn't reward us .. hmmmm Why doesn't she give or sell us some spider-related legendary staff that scales with difficulty.. or even just a nice rare.. I don't know.. something..

Fifth, where are the other vices/deadly sins?

Sixth, why is Lust so ugly and so easy to defeat (again, assuming one has good enough offensive or defensive gear).. ?? Perhaps give Lust a temporary bewitched ability where one does very little damage to her (because we're enchanted by her haha) for like 3 seconds or something.. give it a cooldown so she couldn't spam it too much..

Seventh, why can we not pick up any of the items that Leoric drops when he dies? Those should all be items (if they aren't already) and they should drop more frequently, like one of them per fight should be able to be picked up and just have random roll on stats.. .. and they should be a set, so that they're not too powerful by themselves.. I'd love to have a full gear set of Leoric items..

Eighth, we should get the option to join Zoltan Kulle.. Yeah, I said it. We should have the choice to be evil or at least pretend to be evil to get Kulle to help us.. I'd rather have Kulle as a follower than my followers.. and here is how I think it should work:

If you say No, you're evil and will stab me in the back, I cannot trust you, Kulle (pretty much what is said now.. lame.. ).. then the game goes on how it currently does, you fight Kulle, hopefully he dies and you don't.. ta da.. **spoilers** you get the black soul stone and help Adria to revive Diablo.. erhm I mean trap all the prime evils.. yeah, that's it!

If you say Yes, I'll join you Kulle (not really, I am going to be the one to stab *you* in the back but *later*).. then Kulle says "good" but lets have a duel to determine who will be master of this relationship.. then you fight Kulle like normal except that you don't really die if you die (it is like the brawling arena) and if you win, Kulle joins you as a fourth optional follower. Hey, finally a useful and hopefully less annoying follower.

Ninth and so on.. I could go on.. but I'll stop for now because I think this is getting too long and I need to think more upon this anyway..

Boss fights could be all improved, even the Diablo fight.. although.. of all the fights, I like the Diablo fight the most.. it is nice. I don't like the cut scene after the fight or the fact that Diablo isn't guaranteed to drop elite gear when he/she should be.. but the fight itself and the area you fight in.. it is nice..
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My most memorable experience in D3 was killing Belial in Inferno before patch 1.03. I wanted to get into act 3 to find ilvl 63 loot. I fought him 15-20 time in one day to get my kill. I went and fought him in Hell mode to practice. I didn't even care about NV and changed my spec many times until I killed him

When I killed him I was so happy. To this day it is my best experience in D3.
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Lets start with Durations on buffs doesn't remain active during the cut-scenes on diablo for instance.
this makes you stressed out spamming keys for those short duration buffs like wotb/sweeping wind to not expire during a cut-scene.
Edited by Fubar#2655 on 3/14/2013 1:36 AM PDT
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Well, Starcraft2 was and probably will be that only pure shiny gem which get's polished by Blizzard best game designers, not like thats World of Ghostcrawler or AuctionHouse3.

Not to bashing other developers, but quality of Starcraft2 franchise is way waaaaay ahead of other 2 Blizzard games, it is a harsh truth.
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Very important for a boss mechanic in Diablo 3 is:

- NO enrage timer !
- NO cutscences !
- Avoidable incoming damage! (Belial hits, Azmodan Fireball, Butcher meele hits)
Edited by Desolacer#2339 on 3/14/2013 2:40 AM PDT
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I think a boss fight is some thing that you should have fun with.

like there being ways that you can stun them with the environment as many times as you like or being able to do some strange, silly or very painful things to said boss.

like ..... lets say tricking him into running head long into a wall and him getting his horns stuck in the wall and you can ...... lets say run up to him and kick him in the nuts.

maybe not that exactly but let us do some thing that we can laugh about every time we do it, but also make it worth it, like the boss getting a higher pitched voice, dropping loot because of said thing

for example if Andarial was back, what ever way she gets stuck, stunned or what ever, we would be able to hack off one of her spider limbs, hear her scream in pain and every thing and curse you out.
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Some of the bosses in D3 aren't really varied and are a bit boring.

Would've been cool if before fighting the boss, the boss would randomly select abilities so that their is more randomization and replay ability.

This was something I discussed a few years ago. One of the things that made hero packs in D2 so much more challenging than the boss fights was their randomization, and so I hoped that there would be some randomization included in the D3 bosses.

This did not exactly occur. I think the D3 team did a good job of increasing the relative difficulty of bosses, but it was more based on health pools, enrage timers, damage output, and sometimes abilities based on difficulty level.

I still think it would be quite interesting if each boss had a randomly selected skill (from a carefully designed pool) intended to change the nature of the fight a little based on the roll. Ideally, it would be designed so that characters perfected to overcome one randomized skill would be at a disadvantage if they faced a different randomized skill.

A very simple example of how to mix things up would be to change the elemental damage types of some attacks (e.g. Diablo's lightning hose could change to a fire hose or shadow-arcane hose pretty easily). Another option would be have a boss specialize in curses, and the curses he had access to would be randomly selected from a pool when he spawned. Worried about the blood-mana curse? Maybe you'll luck out and he won't spawn with it -- but he might replace it with Decrepify, so watch out!
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Sad but this will be the first game (HotS) that Blizzard has released that I have not purchased on release date. How far have we come.....or how different have they gone?

edit: Was since i heard it was Tuesday

But one the things D3 did well was the fight sequences and HD graphics. It's refreshing to see some current technology in action, knowing how little of the current tech that are using in developing these games.

Now if they would spend some money to make it a real on-line co-op PC game (8 player minimum games with up to date chat features and meeting places) rather than EA sports xbox game feel, might feel better about the future of this game.

I used to be able to play Blizzard games over and over and not get tired. But after a year of slightly abnormal game play, not much left to do. But I'm not complaining as you can see by my obsessive history, I did enjoy it.
Edited by dawgiestyle#1127 on 3/14/2013 4:01 AM PDT
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Well, Starcraft2 was and probably will be that only pure shiny gem which get's polished by Blizzard best game designers, not like thats World of Ghostcrawler or AuctionHouse3.

Not to bashing other developers, but quality of Starcraft2 franchise is way waaaaay ahead of other 2 Blizzard games, it is a harsh truth.


I was a huge SC/BW player for over 12 years and the following behind Diablo is world-wide while SC was more like, duh Korea.
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We love some of our boss fights (like Belial, Butcher, and Diablo), but agree that some of them could be better. We’re certainly interested in hearing feedback about what you think could make a boss fight more fun, and would like to hear any examples you may have. The more specific, the better. The examples can come from any game, but if you’re referencing HOTS, then please try to avoid sharing any spoilers, if you can.

It’s worth noting that opinions are probably going to vary quite a bit on this. Some players may like the idea of needing to tether a charging boss to a heavy object to slow him down, (even if the strength of those tethers scaled with a hero’s power) while other players may find the mechanic a frustrating chore after a few times. Something else to consider while offering suggestions is that different games are going to have different limitations when it comes to bosses. For example in Diablo III, the encounters have to work with heroes that have different skills and power levels. I bring this up because not every game has to consider this, and designers can tune a boss knowing exactly what a player's damage output, skill selection, and health pool is going to be.


what i noticed about boss fights, is lack of minions and pack of monsters. i mean, boss without servants? look at that lonely azmodan and diablo for instance - why there are almost no monsters there? i'd even throw 2 elites there in inferno difficulty, that fight must be challenging and fun!

and yeah - there should be better reward for those fights. it should be at least equal to bonus from killing an elite with 5 nv stack.
Edited by fhantomPL#1840 on 3/14/2013 3:52 AM PDT
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Honestly, Belial is as far as you should go in terms of 'strategic' mechanics. Diablo is an ARPG, you're not supposed to have all sort of clicking/dodging phases that you can screw up and wipe like WoW bosses.

I think the boss fights in D3 are great, although Azmodan was a bit disappointing. Bosses such as King Leoric, Butcher, etc are very straightforward while still being punishing if you don't pay attention to certain attacks.
Diablo boss fight wasn't bad since it was pretty much the same as D2, but it was disappointing since we were supposed to fight all the evil powers combined. To be honest, it felt like the mistake was in the story for having us fight the Prime Evil before expansions and not the game mechanics themselves.
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Additional foes makes it a lot harder in ARPGs and D3 adopts none/very little of this during boss fights.

It's that simple.

and with something like this
Honestly, Belial is as far as you should go in terms of 'strategic' mechanics. Diablo is an ARPG, you're not supposed to have all sort of clicking/dodging phases that you can screw up and wipe like WoW bosses.

you have little choice left to put in anything. if you're not even going to go figure out a boss' attacks and just hold left click mind-numbingly then your bosses should just all be the same if you don't need to have any dodging/defense phase.

lol.
Edited by KradisZ#1651 on 3/14/2013 4:27 AM PDT
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