Diablo® III

Pondering what Effective Health really means.

EDIT:
I have since discovered the beautiful importance of the HP:EHP ratio. You only need a high EHP pool to withstand burst damage. If you can get to a comfortable max EHP pool size you should focus only on ratio, and keeping the pool size the same. This makes your sustain more effective. I went from 1:12 to 1:17 and saw a HUGE increase in how awesome I am, both in game and IRL ;)

Just a quick example that illustrates my point(with quite an exaggeration). Lets say 2 people have 500,000 ehp:

Person 1 has 100k hp, so a ratio of 1:5
Person 2 has 20k hp, so a ratio of 1:25

They both take a potion, healing them for 10k hp.

Person 1 recieves 10k*5=50,000 EHP heal from the potion
Person 2 recieves 10k*25=250,000 EHP heal from the potion

Person 1 has just restored 1/10 of his ehp and person 2 has restored 1/2 of his EHP. Even though they have the same EHP pool, person 2 has an enormous advantage in outhealing incoming damage through lifesteal, life on hit, health globes, potions, regen etc.

For my own example. A 10k heal at 1:12 vs. 1:17 is a difference of 120,000 heal versus 170,000 heal. That doesn't seem like much, but when you're churning out tons of LS heals, a 30% boost is huge.


I was thinking about what EHP really means as I was debating on whether an Inna’s Temperance would be better with 50+ resists or 150+ vitality.

Logic tells me the 150 vit is a better choice. According to various EHP calculators if I got 150 vit, that would be ~84k EHP versus ~34k ehp (50AR) to 55K EHP (80AR).

This really looks like a no brainer. Really, it does. I want more EHP, right?

I would argue this is wrong, and the reason for this comes in the forms of sustain, most notably, (and the one I use) life steal.

Lifesteal heals a % of the damage you deal(I think like less than 1% in inferno, but for the sake of my point we will just use 1%). Since we can’t accurately calculate lifesteal based on sheet dps, we have to use effective dps, but in this case, I’m just going to use one wave of light worth of damage.

My WOL has been critting for 600k lately, so we will use that number. According to my possibly made up 1% lifesteal amount, I should get a whopping 6,000 hp if I crit one mob. Let’s say that I’m a badass and I crit 3 out of 3 mobs for exactly 600k each. Sweet. I just got back 18,000 hp, which is good because I’m standing in a desecrate.

What effect does EHP have on this? Well, that 18,000 is healed from my max health pool, not my EHP, so 18k is 18k is 18k. The game doesn’t care if I’m naked and have only 18k hp and no armor or resists. It also doesn’t care if I have 1,000 resists and 10,000 armor. See where I’m going with this?

I think there is a danger to getting too much vitality at the expense of having less resists just so you can flaunt your 75k health pool around.

Let’s do some math. I’m not actually going to calculate everything like the game does, but am just going to use made up examples to prove a point.

Let’s say 100k hp with 400 all resists and 4,000 armor gives me a sweet 1,000,000 EHP. Let’s also say my friend has 800 all resist and 8k hp, but only 40k hp, but his EHP is also 1,000,000. I call him a noob cus his health is so low, amirite?

But, what happens in this situation is that when we both crit 3 mobs for 600k and get 18k health back, he gets WAY more effective health back, making his sustain almost twice as powerful. How much EHP do we get for 18k hp?

1,000,000/100,000= for every 1 hit point I have 10 EHP. So 18k gives me 180,000k EHP.

1,000,000/40,000= for every 1 hit point my friend has 25 EHP and gets 450,000 EHP from that same WOL. Almost half his effective health. Talk about some overhealing.

So if we lose effective health at the same exact rate, his sustain is always going to come out on top if he has more resists and armor and less vitality. (Don’t get me wrong, if he has 800/8000 and can maintain those with MORE vitality he should, but dropping below those, in my example, for more vit would be counterproductive)

I personally feel like I’ve dropped too many resistances at the expense of more vitality and it’s weakened my monk.

Also, if my theoretical math is fundamentally wrong, let me know.

So my question is this: Where is the breakpoint between too few resists and too much hp to adequately sustain?

tl;dr: I’m just pondering. Ponder with me, or don’t.
Edited by Amiar#1992 on 4/8/2013 9:25 AM PDT
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You only need as much EHP that you won't die in bursts before your sustain can kick in. If you regularly get bursted for 500k EHP, you need to have 501k EHP to survive that. Any more is overkill.

The second half of the equation is sustain. Sustain is a product of your life regen (LoH, LS, LpSS, L/sec, etc.) along with your EHP:HP ratio. If you have double the EHP:HP ratio, you only need half as much sustain and vice versa.

Blindly stacking EHP because more is better is the wrong approach. If you're dying in bursts before you can react or before your sustain can kick in, you need more EHP and it doesn't matter how you get it (resists, armour, HP). If you're bleeding to death slowly because you're not able to recover HP as quickly as you lose it, you need more sustain and it doesn't matter how you get it (increase LoH, LS, resists, armour, etc.)

Resists and armour are a very attractive option overall because they add to both your EHP and sustain at the same time, allowing you to kill two birds with one stone.

As for how much EHP you need, there isn't one breakpoint for everyone - it depends on how you play. I played through and beat release inferno as a very undergeared Monk so I had to hone my skills at dodging stuff, knowing when to use serenity, etc. so I might be comfortable running 300-400k EHP in MP6. Meanwhile someone else may only play D3 while watching TV and with 300+ ping and may need 600-700k EHP in MP6 to feel comfortable. Keep stacking it until you stop dying in bursts and then work on your sustain. With both of those solved, pour everything left into DPS.
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Apart from all the number crunching, I just need enough life to sustain explosion from Fallen Maniacs @ Act 3 keep 2 @ MP10.
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I made the mistake of going too much vit vs resists on both my monk and wizard.

However, I also think it has to do with MP. Lower MP, you can run higher vit. It's not until you hit MP7 (even lower MP on the wizard) or so that you suddenly realize you shoulda gone resists.

Also depends on who you run with. Solo? Resists. CM wizard? Can prolly get away with vit. Public games? Hahahaha... get both.

I cheated. I grabbed a high vit and high resist pair of Inna's. I swap them as needed.
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Yeah, I think for me I need more resists and have struggled with where to get it on my gear. I just need to keep crafting stuff to get a decent roll for resists and damage, and vit if I can swing it.

My problem is also my poor connection. The times where I have an amazing connection (under 250ms) I cruise through the game like butter. But, with higher pings (300-1000) I die way more.

I'm trying to get away from OWE, but it's a sloooow process that crafting has been helping to alleviate. About 200 gloves later I've only come up with one pair with decent damage and high resists, but it lacks IAS, so I don't like to use it over my current gloves.

I thought about using a shield, but it's such a huge dps/spirit regen drop that I can't do it, and I even have a really decent shield in the bank.

Also, I want to coin this as EEHP. Effective Effective Health Pool.
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yes.

resist beats all imo.

back when i used OWE, i had 590k ehp at only 33k ehp. i was surviving on life per second alone. i've since dropped OWE, and went to 39k HP, but still have not reached the same EHP.
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I regularly vendor gear that would increase my EL pool at the expense of my eSustain. What's the point of increasing the former by 10% if the latter makes up the difference in the first 5 to 10 seconds of combat?
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My WOL has been critting for 600k lately, so we will use that number.


Uhh... your WoL should be critting for WAY MORE than 600k even with dual wielding. I know with a 2hander, I was getting about 2.5 million crits with ~170k dps.

You realize WoL-EW's damage is divided into 3 parts, right?
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Yea, sustain is much more effective if you've got high mitigation as opposed to a high health pool.

03/18/2013 05:22 AMPosted by blhotz
My WOL has been critting for 600k lately, so we will use that number.


Uhh... your WoL should be critting for WAY MORE than 600k even with dual wielding. I know with a 2hander, I was getting about 2.5 million crits with ~170k dps.

You realize WoL-EW's damage is divided into 3 parts, right?

Whoosh.
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03/18/2013 12:07 AMPosted by yuhhaur
Apart from all the number crunching, I just need enough life to sustain explosion from Fallen Maniacs @ Act 3 keep 2 @ MP10.


600k ehp + a bit is roughly the tip point.
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So I experimented with some gear today and discovered that what I like to aim for is not sheer EHP, but my hp:EHP ratio. The higher your ratio, the more effective all forms of sustain will be.

It's important to reach a benchmark of EHP, like 600k just as punisher said, but after that I would suggest not boosting your ehp into oblivion via vit and %life as opposed to resists and armor, but trying to stack as many resists and armor as possible, sometimes even before getting vit on certain items.

I brought my ratio from about 1:12 to 1:17 (thats what it will be once i finally get my boots and shoulders replaced). And I only lost 20k EHP from 640k to 620k Thats almost a 40% increase in how effective my sustain is. That makes 3.0 lifesteal become 4.2 lifesteal! Whoa!

I credit this to rolling some sweet dual resist bracers and gloves that made abusing the crap out of OWE possible

It should be noted that All resists, armor, and melee/ranged/elite reduction stats are the only stats that will increase your hp/ehp ratio, thus increasing the effectiveness of all forms of sustain(LOH, health globes, life steal, potions heals etc.). Vitality and %life will only raise both the hp and ehp pools equally while maintaining the same ratio. If you can get more resists and armor while maintaining, or increasing your EHP, this is recommended.
Edited by Amiar#1992 on 4/3/2013 7:58 AM PDT
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So I experimented with some gear today and discovered that what I like to aim for is not sheer EHP, but my hp:EHP ratio. The higher your ratio, the more effective all forms of sustain will be.

It's important to reach a benchmark of EHP, like 600k just as punisher said, but after that I would suggest not boosting your ehp into oblivion via vit and %life as opposed to resists and armor, but trying to stack as many resists and armor as possible, sometimes even before getting vit on certain items.


This is generally the conventional wisdom around here, I think. The most important survival stat in PvE is eLpS (effective life per second). It's generally far more important than EHP and I tend to even consider it more important than DPS. I'm even a big fan of getting Life Regen gear, even if it mean sacrificing some Vit to get it.

The main reason people talk more of EHP is that its generally easy to calculate. eLpS is basically completely situational and dependent on much more than just your gear. So it's difficult to just throw a number out there for comparison between two characters, and any number you do use usually contains a ton of assumptions (often that you're fighting one opponent, that you're attacking completely non-stop, hitting every cool down, not using potions or getting globes, etc.)

If you're going down the road of creating your own personal spreadsheets, it would probably be a good idea for you to come up with at least a metric for it, though, even if it's just for comparison purposes between your gear.

The formula I'm generally using for my LpS for my current build is:

( LoH * 1.5 * 1.25 * APS ) +
( LS * 0.2 * 5.5 * DPS ) +
( LpSS * 1.5 * 6 * APS) +
( Life Regen )

Then I divide that by my mitigation ratio to get eLpS. It's useful if I'm trying to get a feel for whether more DPS will cover a loss of LoH or if more AR will cover a loss of Life Regen. Or if I'm trying to compare which build to use against ubers.

But it's really just an estimate, probably only useful for looking for large shifts rather than +/- 5% changes. I've completely ignored dodge, block, Life on Kill, health globes, and potions for example. eLpS coming from Life Regen is arguably the most valuable because that comes whether or not I do anything, and that's more or less ignored as well.

It's more of a concept than an exactly calculable number, so it probably gets less mention than it should, especially when compared to EHP.
Edited by Demiwraith#1534 on 4/3/2013 10:14 AM PDT
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04/03/2013 10:13 AMPosted by Demiwraith
If you're going down the road of creating your own personal spreadsheets, it would probably be a good idea for you to come up with at least a metric for it, though, even if it's just for comparison purposes between your gear.

If you check my spreadsheet, you'll be off to a good start for calculating effective sustain.
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It actually depends on what skills you use.

My monk usually has 525k EHP (no amethyst, about 480AR) which means an EHP ratio of about 1:7.

While my EHP is high, mitigation is quite low, due to dropping OWE, so builds that lack burst, like the EP-blazing fists build makes me squishy.

On the other hand, a build that has Blazing Wrath (a heal), and WoL (super burst heal+dmg) makes my low mitigation irrelevant, since 1 WoL on 2 enemies virtually makes me back to full HP. That and serenity!
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04/03/2013 10:36 AMPosted by Vrkhyz
If you're going down the road of creating your own personal spreadsheets, it would probably be a good idea for you to come up with at least a metric for it, though, even if it's just for comparison purposes between your gear.

If you check my spreadsheet, you'll be off to a good start for calculating effective sustain.


Can you provide a link to your spread sheet?

I've been thinking more about EHP ratio, and trying to enlighten the masses. I hope they read and learn as I continue to fully understand it and try to make an amazing spreadsheet of my own.
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