Diablo® III

Ultimate Skorn vs DW Challenge Gentlemen?

@ Pri

Yes, you make some excellent points. I am hoping though with a relatively significant budget, that difference in price efficiency does not impact on the result as much as much as with a much lower budget. Your point regarding the skills choice is also well made. Once again I am hoping that the gearers will be able to provide sets with enough flexibility to allow different play styles.

I had an earlier idea where the Captain and his second would be required to use two different skill sets. Perhaps this should be reintroduced.
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@ Death

I totally agree that this exercise should be of benefit and within reach of the average gamer. I am also keeping in mind the constraints of a lower budget as discussed with Pri. I think it important that the gear sets be flexible enough to allow flexibility os playing styles. I am hoping that the eventual gear sets also be something that the average gamer can aspire to and work towards so equally we don't need them to be easily achieved, just achievable for the average gamer.

Shall we say for now that the maximum amount is to be 1B, and then once all members are enlisted, agree on a final achievable total? Thanks again for your support.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't someone complete Wayneold's challenge back then with 100m gold budget? You may want to look for that person as well
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Yes, you make some excellent points. I am hoping though with a relatively significant budget, that difference in price efficiency does not impact on the result as much as much as with a much lower budget. Your point regarding the skills choice is also well made. Once again I am hoping that the gearers will be able to provide sets with enough flexibility to allow different play styles.


You know what I would actually like to see...

A 4-man barb challenge for MP10 uber clear times.

1) WT Barb
2) WW Barb
3) H/R Barb
4) SnB Traditional Barb (Can build into any of the above or something completely different)

One of each required. Total of 1 billion to gear ALL 4. Team with best group clear time would win.

This would just be incredibly fun to watch.

Plus this is a bit selfish as I have been wanting to build a throw barb to fart around with for quite some time lol.

EDIT: This also leaves no barbarian out (the average Joe). All builds are covered, it focuses on price efficiency, and barbs can learn how to make their build fit into a team comp.

:)
Edited by Pri#1584 on 3/27/2013 8:58 AM PDT
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I really like Pri's adjustment to the approach, since the goal is to provide the average joe an understanding of how to gear/build a barb with reasonable funds. I believe Death has indicated this aspect as well. Additionally, by including all 4 common types of barbs, it leaves no joe out in the cold wondering how to gear/build his specific barb. Brilliant!

My only comment is Paragon Level. Do each of the participants have a fresh lvl 60, or at least a barb with PL less than 25 or so? At the higher PL levels, Str and Vit start to have a noticeable effect on tDPS and ehp, or looking at it another way, allow a barb to purchase cheaper gear. If this exercise is an education for new or struggling barbs, chances are they don't have a high PL. Just my 2 cents.

Looking forward to reading about the gearing process and seeing the resultant vids. I commend Morpheus and those willing to participate for taking the time to give something educational to the community. Too many times, internet forums degrade to nothing but pissing matches full of conjecture, pride, and mud slinging. It's nice to see something different, even if it is just a game.
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My only comment is Paragon Level. Do each of the participants have a fresh lvl 60, or at least a barb with PL less than 25 or so?


I would love to participate in this if I get to be a throw barb. :D (not that I was invited lol...but I love crashing parties).

I will start leveling a new barb immediately, if selected. I think using paragon levels under 20 is ideal for this challenge. Anything more and you are getting too much of a paragon buff.
Edited by Pri#1584 on 3/27/2013 10:19 AM PDT
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@ Silverfire

Yes, I agree that it would have to be a realistic budget. I think however that, with the calibre of talent I am hoping to get involved, anything less than MP10 would be too easy. As Wayne mentioned, his challenge was pre 1.07 nerfs and the changing costs in the GAH. Also though, we would want to make it an adequate sum so that they have some flexibility. The measure of this challenge is how well it is done, not whether it is possible on a very limited challenge.


I didn't realize at first that you were planning on fronting the gold yourself. You're looking for an exclusive challenge for exclusive players. That approach is fine.

I was thinking of something different, a challenge where entering is easy but winning is extremely hard. A small, small budget (like 5m), where anyone who wants in can enter easily. You'd get good competition and fresh faces, but not the nicely tuned gearsets you're looking for. Your approach makes sense too. I certainly hope this gets some traction. I'll definitely have my popcorn out for it.


I also think that the edge in gearing efficiency will currently go to skorn users as dropping a good amount of gold on 1 good skorn vs 2 good 1-handers itself would probably be more economical. I don't think it is some great mystery that as of right now skorn users have the price efficiency edge for being able to clear more difficult content at a better price point.

What you gain with Skorn, you give up with armor. The armor requirements for Skorn are higher. You need both higher HP/AR and higher IAS simultaneously versus dual wield to make Skorn work as fluidly.
Edited by silverfire#1855 on 3/27/2013 11:11 AM PDT
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Wow this sounds like a pretty cool idea.

There are quite a lot of interesting suggestions on how exactly the different sets should be split up and what builds should be used. I think those are definitely valid points and I'll let you guys figure that out.

There are actually 3 topics of concern that I would like to bring up:

Determining a reliable and accurate way of measuring the results.

Ubers are a very variable event. Unlike XP farming or KD2 farming where you can measure the variables simply by looking at your XP bar or lifetime kills over a long period of time, Uber or Elite killing efficiency is a much more variable task with a lot of factors out of the player's control such as Magda deciding not to shield for a full minute despite being at a quartile of her health or SB/Kulle using a ridiculously well timed combination of skills that will down some of the beefiest of players.

My suggestion for this is that the players would dual queue with another person streaming the entire event on a competition day where one person of each time (however you decide to pick the teams) would do a full set of ubers. Although the best way would be for the host to be the streamer leave the game right before the challenger does the uber so the challenger gets their follower, I think it would be more entertaining if the streamer entered the battle with 0 gear and just died right at the center of the map so they could observe the entire encounter. The other advantage of having a 2nd player being the host is that the challenger can leave the game to reset the WotB cooldown just in case it did drop off and got renewed in the previous uber.

In this scheme the challenger has a larger health pool to attempt to increase the difficulty of the challenge (as some people have pointed out 1B nowadays will go pretty far) and they would have 3 attempts to clear each uber before it was considered a fail and given whatever the decided max time per uber works out to be. This should not be interpreted to gear completely GC, but rather if the player feels like they had a very bad start or something buggy occurs, they should not be penalized in restarting the fight to try again. At the end, the average completion time of all the players on a particular team are averaged if they are using the same gear set and students' t-test used to check for significance. If the team members are using different gear sets then you'd likely want to get a sample of 3 full clear times of each gearset average those and run some more complex statistical tests on those samples.

The challengers are allowed to prepare off stream as much as they would like to in preparation for this, but on stream they really only have those limited number of tries.

Information sharing of specific details surrounding the encounter

To make it a bit fair, I think there should be a pooled resource between teams about the exact damage ranges and damage types of the MP10 uber attacks. I'm sure both teams will attempt to measure these variables for gearing considerations and whoever has Nubtro will have an advantage. ie, I've found that MP10 fallen maniacs hit for around 600k physical melee dmg and around 300k poison EHP is needed to run through the diameter full plague patch which sometimes block a chokepoint, so when making gearsets for KD2 trash farming I aim for 650k physical melee EHP and 400k poison elite EHP while ignoring everything else and just focusing on DPS.

Gear Swapping

One last consideration that I want to bring up is gear swapping in the middle of fights. You've already mentioned no skill swapping, but gear swapping is something I find to be a very cost effective way to play the game and as long as you're not going as overboard as I do with budget sets where I swap to SoJ only for elites, most players would be fine with it. I can definitely see myself switching over to a Tyraels during the Ghom/Rak fight and switching midway through SB/Kulle once the latter is down.

BTW I'm actually a NA server player.

I'm definitely interested in participating in such an event. I just hope that it doesn't come down to a "you get unlimited tries, just post the video at the end" type of situation. I remember back when I was doing the world record for group MP10 ubers. If Madga didn't fly out to greet us - reset, if rakanoth DID fly out to meet us - reset, if our Monk dropped his 3-stage snapshotted SW during the cutscene due to lag - reset...
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@Morpheus I would like to join in the skorn team as the 4th - average barb is what you asked if I am not wrong. I was wondering if anyone could volunteer.

Thanks.
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This is a fine example of the player base getting creative to make the game fun and exciting. Blizzard must be watching this with interest as will the other classes and players in general. For once, rather than bashing this game to death with negatives, we have some of the most enthusiastic and knowledgable barb players willing to partake in this contest and share their talents.

I have learned a lot from some of the names stated here for the contest. I started off as a skorn HOTA / REND barb and have enjoyed doing group MP10 Uber successfully with it. Now I've switched to DW WW build and have found greater love for it.

Kudos to Morpheus for initiating this. I'll be watching with interest !
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@Chaz
I enjoyed reading over all you posted. I also hope some of it is taken into consideration for the contest.
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@ Death

My thoughts exactly Sir.

@ Pri, Silverfire

I think that that would also be an excellent challenge however is getting away from my initial aim of having a competition which is also educational for new members of the community as discussed earlier in the post. The more variables we introduce, the less we can focus our analysis and the more confusing that analysis.

Of itself however, that would be a great challenge. Perhaps Pri you could guide a follow-up challenge? I think any discussions and activities such as these would be good for the community and good fun :)

@ Chazhang

Thanks for dropping by and your input. Wayneold mentioned that you would be an excellent person to have involved. The suggestions above are great but a little away from my initial concept which I hope has some merit. Can I trouble you to read through the earlier parts of the post and perhaps share your thoughts?

I agree the Ubers aren't a perfect measure, but they are a popular measure and are fun. I envisage that the players involved would capture their best run time and post the video. That way we could all watch and learn.

@ Anwin

Thanks for your interest, that would be great and yes, it is what I was thinking What I might do is gather volunteers,mans then allow the two team Captains to decide between the merits of the volunteers and choose 1. Perhaps by joining them in game play or something similar. Anwin down for first Average Joe Skorn volunteer :)
Edited by Morpheus#6524 on 3/27/2013 1:40 PM PDT
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03/27/2013 01:36 PMPosted by Morpheus
I think that that would also be an excellent challenge however is getting away from my initial aim of having a competition which is also educational for new members of the community as discussed earlier in the post. The more variables we introduce, the less we can focus our analysis and the more confusing that analysis.


As it stands, this would only educate people in two very specific builds: Hota/Rend or Whirlwind. This does not help the slew of barbarians out there that are confused with SnB builds and WT builds. My suggestion would still involve considerable analysis and reasoning behind gearing decisions, but would also open the spectrum to all of the "main" barb builds. Personally (once again...selfish me) would love to see the potential a WT build has or even an SnB build. I have mentally discounted those builds and it bothers me.

I would figure that the gearing discussions and analysis could happen in a round table format where each different barb-type could talk about their gear, what led to the decisions they made, and how they believe those decisions impact the team clear times. Discussions could also go into solo viability for each of the builds.

This just a thought.

Great topic by the way!
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@ Pri

No I agree, it is an excellent concept and has given me an idea for a follow up challenge :). I might start another thread where we can discuss this. I'll put up the 1B that the losing team gives back to me for this challenge too :). I might have a chat to you about it soon.

For the purposess of this topic however, I might try and keep the basic concept as originally designed, otherwise there will be a lot of confusion as to what exactly the this particular challenge is. I have designed this not for experienced Barbarians such as yourself and Silverfire, but more for newcomers and those who haven't quite got the grasp of the basic concepts as yet. Looking through the forums I notice that a large number of posts will be asking for help regarding gearing. So for this excercise, I am looking at seeing how experienced and knowlegable Barbarians go about the process of gear selection within a certain budget as well as the gameplay itself. Having only 2 sets of gear to discuss will allow a much more indepth analysis and discussion about these sets, rather than having discussions on 8 or so different sets. It will just be easier to understand.

The follow up challenge though I might aim at more experienced players as more of a test of skill :). Watch this space. For now however, I might ask that we focus on this initial concept. Thank you for your thoughts and suggestions mate.
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@ Chazhang

Awesome, didn't know you were on NA servers.....I think you would be a perfect candidate for this challenge.
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Wayneold good to see you maybe back now to get our old mate Hornguy back.
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Hi Everyone

This post is now a day old and I have very much enjoyed it. Quite exciting really :). Firstly thank you I would like to thank everyone who has volunteered to participate and all those others who have contribute with comments and suggestions. The calibre of player we have had involved and visiting us is already exceptional.

I especially like Pri's suggestion of a team event open to the general community which is easy to enter, but difficult to win and have been giving this a lot of thought also. I would love to explore this challenge at a later date also. For now though I would like to continue with the original challenge and try to ensure that it comes to fruition.

For now we are still at the enlisting phase. Wayneold and Death have kindly agreed to participate, thank you gentlemen. I am assigning Wayneold as Champion of the DW team and Death as Champion for the Skorn team. They will be responsible for the over all direction of the team. We also need a Second for each of the Champions and thirdly, a member of the general Barbarian community here. Also, we need the skills of two Gearers. Nived has also kindly agreed to spare some time from his busy thread and participate. So, while he's not looking, I am assigning him to the role of Gearer for the Skorn team. PhatPhoEater has reservations about joining us which I totally understand but I am hoping he comes on board as Gearer for the Dual Wield team. What say you brother?

@ Wayneold and Death

I am wondering, for the sake of efficiency and probably also team dynamics, if I should ask you both to personally choose your Seconds from your own network of friends and colleagues. I am sure that anyone you see fit would fulfill this role well. I was hoping that guys like Dakkon and Joch might pop by but, if over the next day or so this does not happen, perhaps we should proceed in this direction. Thoughts gentlemen?

Thirdly, I was also hoping for a general member of the barbarian community to be the fourth team member. I envisage that these would be chosen from volunteers on this thread by the team Champions. Preferably these players would not be close friends of the Champions. Anwin has already volunteered his services for the Skorn team. Any other potential volunteers? Pri, Silverfire?

Thanks again to everyone for their support and interest. Have fun!!!! :)
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@Morpheus and others - Looking forward to this now :-)
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@ Anwin

I am too mate :)

@ Nived

While we're still finalizing our proponents, could I start a general discussion regarding the gearing? Assuming a 1B gold budget, what kind of gear set would you be able to achieve and what are your priorities to maximise the effectiveness of a Skorn build. Just a basic outline would be helpful for now.

@ Death

As this concerns your gearset, could you also please pass comment on what you see are the important considerations in gearing for a Skorn build?

Personally I find the slow attack speed of the Skorn can be an issue and so try to include as much ias gear as possible. Thoughts from any other Skorn wielders?
Edited by Morpheus#6524 on 3/28/2013 1:01 AM PDT
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