Diablo® III

An Invitation to Design an Action RPG

We are a startup creating a competitive action RPG where the game mechanics are designed by the players.

If you are a passionate RPG player you might be interested in joining us designing the game.

The character skills and game mechanics will all be crowdsourced.

Everything that gets into the game is curated and voted by members around the world.

The game is called Injum and you are invited to check it out.

http://injum.com
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hmm, so you gonna gather a lot of ideas for free and monetize with it? hmm
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We are going to Kickstart it soon and we thought of giving Diablo 3 players the privilege of getting in first.

We have seen the creativity and the passion of some members here with their design ideas. We thought it is a waste that most, if not all of them, get ignored and branded as "not fun".

We are very excited to share more info to those interested.
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I have a lot of unused ideas for characters mechanics and can probably create concepts for new ones. This because few years ago (in my free time) i came up with a concept of a pen and paper rpg/versus game that incorporates real time elements and focuses on planing and teamwork. Currently i have over 60 diverse character templates. I also designed a strategy TCG made over 500 cards but stop working on it due to the lack of market for it.

I am an art director & graphic designer from SE Asia. If you are serious i can try to contribute for character, skills and items (as well as foes). I would need a short write up describing your world and its diverse inhabitance first, as well as a link to your artist to confirm the art style you are pursuing. I am not looking for financial compensation.

You can reach me at orion.darknessillusion@gmail.com
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Thank you. You are exactly the kind of person we would like to have in Injum. We realized that no matter how good a lead game designer is, there are just so many "what ifs - what if we have this character, what if we have this skill, what if we have this boss fight etc" and many brilliant ideas that can come from any player.

People don't even need any design skills. Sometimes all it takes is a fight scene in a movie or maybe a kick-!@# character in an anime to inspire them and say "Wouldn't it be fun to have this in my rpg game?"

But with the closed nature of game design in the industry right now, it's not possible. By the time you see the mechanics and graphics of the game, it is already out in beta or early alpha.

This is what we want to disrupt. Player contribution and engagement should begin at the earliest stage and everything should be curated. You will be amazed at what people can come up with.

We will soon release a complete manifesto of what we want to achieve with Injum.

But we can start by sharing what we think is the most important of all. This principle is our solution to what we believe is plaguing most games currently.

Axiom:

The game is the endgame and the endgame is the game

Corollary:

The game is infinitely playing as long as there are players.
The game is never ending.

With the unique game mechanics and crowdsourced nature of Injum, it's never ending nature becomes possible.

For those wanting to have an idea of how Injum will look like, the graphics should be, at a minimum, as good as the one used in Lineage Eternal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCdbdsFgNGI

The source of funding is not a question right now. You do not need millions to become brilliant. We just all need our imagination. And you can assume that we have a billionaire somewhere who will fund the art and graphics engine.

Don't let the money limit what you can come up with.

In my next post I will share what the world of Injum is like.
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In a world similar to our planet, there is a place where the strongest heroes and warriors meet and battle for fame and glory.

This place is known far and wide. And people call it Injum.

Injum is a tower whose peak no one has seen yet.

Inside, thousands of warriors and martial artists compete daily in order to advance to its floors.

You, as the player, have the goal of reaching the highest floor you can reach and gain fame and fortune along the way.

Most Important Principles:
- There are no character levels
- There are no character classes
- There are no skill trees
- The progress of a player is defined by his floor
- Every player has a book of skills and weapons
- A character's uniqueness is defined by his book

Principles:
- All characters are the same at the start. They can customise their gender and appearance.
- A player can only create one character
- There is no auction house
- There is player to player trading
- There are no micro transactions
- There are sponsored tournaments and competitions. This is the financial model of the game.
- Characters can have multiple weapons and can easily switch from one to another
- The game is free to play
- Players will never spend a single dime while in the game
- Weapons and skills are never sold within the game by any NPC

Floor Rules:
- These rules deal more with the PVP part of the game
- There are hundreds of floors in the tower
- There are floor masters
- Competitors are allowed to fight and defeat their opponent using any means, but weapons are not allowed on the first X floors
- There is a prize for advancing on each of the X floors
- After reaching the Nth floor, competitors get their own private room.
- The floors above the Nth offer no prize, but glory.
- Weapons are allowed to be used after reaching the X floor.
- Losing four matches results in disqualification, while winning ten matches results in being awarded the right to challenge a Floor Master.
- There is a Battle Olympia
- This is what Dota players are most familiar with. Competing against other players.

Floor Requirements:
- These rules deal more with the PVE part of the game
- Each floor has a requirement/requirements that must be satisfied before entering it
- In fulfilling the requirements, players will fight against the system, instead of other players
- This what the Diablo players are most familiar with. Killing monsters the system controls.

Player Participation:

- Players design every floor. For example a player might design Floor 23 and its requirements and it will be curated and voted by all.
- Players serve as gate keeps for each floor. You have to win a number of fights against other players to move up.
- Players design the skills, the weapons, the boss fights, and everything else.
- Players will curate and vote on them on the site and they will be implemented in the game.

Vision:
- To be the biggest, most exciting, most challenging, and yet most prestigious game on earth
- Biggest
More than half of world's population will be playing it. It will be an international e-sports.
- Most Exciting
People from all ages will play and loved Injum. Just saying the name of the game will make people get excited and fired up.
In a typical person's day, playing Injum is the peak of his day.
- Most Challenging
Players will obsess over it. There is no end to the fascination of players over Injum. They will love facing the challenges Injum presents to them
- Most Prestigous
Players get an authentic feeling and status of being special for being an Injum player. The better player you are, the more prestigious your status is.
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In a world similar to our planet, there is a place where the strongest heroes and warriors meet and battle for fame and glory.

^Similar how, geographically? Socially? Is there magic in this world? If yes, how did the inhabitance (humans only?) learn magic? How advanced is the technology? Who is the ruler(important people)? Why are the people fighting for "fame and glory"? What about power and riches?
Who is in charge of these battles? Where is the battle held(name the tower and describe its surroundings. Is it in a city? desolated mountian/fields?)? Are all the battles going to be in the tower interior?

My Suggestions
- Don't ever say the world is similar to another world. Make a world. Give it a name and some culture. Describe how people there live. Asking people to refer to an existing source (saying things like "something like middle earth") makes you look lazy. Even though your world is not unique, describe it like it is. You can add details later. For my TCG i created an entire unique continent shared by 5 major fractions (and about a dozen subfractions) with a story of each of their formation their history, leadership, their relationship to each other. Please do better.

Refer to how the rift world is introduced. They gave a huge amount of backstory which gave the idea of how the world is formed, its people divided, and a glimpse of the threat of the dragons.

Another method is take a point in our history and change it thus creating an alternate world. For example during the dark ages when the crusaders were at the mist of their the holy war, the first demonic portal opened in a peace full greece and deamons started pouring out. More portals soon opened elsewhere. This forced the humans to unite against the demonic threat. Eventually the humans won thanks to a group of heroes and their leader 'mr/ms So and So'.... Then you can explain what happened after the war and what lead to the construction of your temple. Something like that. Refer to lionheart & hellgate:london

- Instead of heroes looking for glory (lame), include that among the other participants are also criminals punished for their crimes to fight until they die, people who enjoy the thrill of combat and taking lives, as well as creatures trained/forced to fight for greedy owners. Something darker.

- try to include more diverse battlefields, not just in a tower. Portals or illusions are the usual solution.

- your competition need organizers some on to keep track and make sure people are actually fighting. Rewards have to also come from somewhere.

----------------------------

There's a lot more you should add but you should focus on your games backstory and art before you do actual gameplay. Take a few weeks to come up with a better concept. Talk to people. Dont rush. Find a real artist(or CG artist). A programer. A few people that can give good critiques on story and gameplay. Consider your funding and how much time each of you are willing to spend on this project. Dont take on more than you can afford to do.

Assuming you are serious.

PS: Theres a guy around here named KradisZ who is planning to be a game developer, you can discuss your ideas with him if you want. He is better than me on the technical side.
Edited by TheCursed#6888 on 3/28/2013 12:44 AM PDT
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Omg I wrote like a giant wall of text and when I hit submit it disappeared ugh.... -_-... I AM NOT writing 14000 words again just to have it go poof on me again.

But on a side note why I wrote such a long post to begin with was because I saw TheCursed mention my name here, and I want to vouch that based on his/her questions and suggestions that those are very much very solid things I would like answered as well at the same time and believe that they are indeed an art director just because those questions are very design specific. Which is important to the foundation of your game.

I'm currently a student abt to grad as a digital signal processing programmer, or in easier terms image/sound processing programmer & already am a 3D character/environment artist, but I'm still quite a newb. I don't mind helping as well for no financial compensation I just want to make a good !@#$ing game for people to enjoy but there are too many open-ended unspecified concepts with what's presented currently so far to get me on board.

I don't want to reiterate all the things I mentioned in my other post.. which no one will ever see ugh, but one thing is that there are a lot of unspecified mechanics or things that are too open-ended that need to be solidified before going further.

I'll just edit them in as I regain my endurance :O.

As TheCursed said, don't rush, plan things out.

Planning is like reducing your total workload by 70%. 0 planning or just on the fly is increasing your workload by 1000%. People hate to plan, but that's the truth. They are guidelines or ropes that you give yourself.

Other than that I really don't want to retype everything I had to say about most of the things mentioned above. I'm so tired.........

edit: they weren't negative things, more so questions to just get things fleshed out. and a ton of examples with references and links T_T and a full thought process. argh2#$@$@#$1. I don't want to rewrite another massive post and waste another 30 mins while being awake on 4 hours of sleep :/

I will continuously add things in to this one post until I'm close to what I was going to write earlier.
Stuff like no levels no skill trees and what not, where is the player progression? How will players know their character has grown in power and not decided upon luck of the draw or mechanics that simply missed the character? Will the gameplay journey be memorable? if it isn't there is no point for an endgame.

Also if floors are designed by players, you need a very dynamic framework and server structure to handle that, you don't want to take down the server for maintenance or inclusion of all these things everytime something comes up. Making such a system is fairly difficult and utilizing a game engine is even worse with such an idea of player involved implementation of levels.

PoE for example 1000$ gets you a custom item, a custom item is puny compared to an entire level/floor which in the design principle includes mechanics, traps, PvE elements, PvP elements, it's a LOT of variables to implement and consider. Players also interact with these floors and isn't just a damage stick with an effect on it.
Also the server load would increase dramatically if the levels/floors were huge, and if you limited them then you'd be limiting your player's imagination, so that needs to be further clarified before moving down that point.
Edited by KradisZ#1651 on 3/28/2013 2:39 PM PDT
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Blaze speaking for Injum

First I would like to thank TheCursed and KradisZ for their ideas, questions, and criticisms. They help a lot. With the info I will share below, I hope it will become clearer what we want to achieve with Injum and how we can achieve them.

Injum has Revolutionary Game Mechanics

Injum is revolutionary in many ways and in different levels. Structure-wise we are moving away from the standard model of having classes for characters. This makes us very different from RPGs like POE, Diablo, Grim Dawn, Lineage Eternal, and Torchlight. We are also removing the levels of characters. There is no level 1, level 2, and so on. We are also removing skill trees. We are replacing all of them with one revolutionary concept, the Book. The book contains spells, skills, and weapons that players collect as they move up on the floors of Injum.

Those are the obvious differences of Injum with other games. But on a deeper level, we have more profound differences. The philosophy we follow in Injum is entirely different from anything that exists now. Injum is a never ending game. It is a game where everything is possible. And it is the only game where the players control its destiny.

Let go of Character Classes


We are removing character classes. When I came up with this idea it felt like enlightenment. I became free. There is no more barbarian, there is no more wizard, or witch doctor.

Now there is only You. And you are as normal as any person next to you. You don’t have any super-powers, you don’t have any thing that makes you different from anyone else.

But what makes you unique is also You. Even though you are the same as any one else at the beginning, the moment you start playing the game, your uniqueness will build-up. You will start collecting skills, weapons, spells, and grow your Book. There is very little chance that you will meet someone exactly like you. Because there will be thousands of Book cards that will be designed by players. Even if twenty players are fire-casters, I’m sure no one will be like my fire-caster character (Blaze). I’m 1000% sure of that. The limit of what my fire-caster can do is the limit of my imagination (This only becomes possible because of (1) Players design Injum and (2) Everything is possible in Injum. See below)

The main reason we are removing character classes is that they limit flexibility. Classes are in direct contrast to what we believe is very important – Everything should be possible. Any character should have any skill the player wants him to have.

Let go of Skill Trees

Once we have become enlightened on the concept of class-less characters, it only followed that skill trees should also go.

With Injum, characters can have any skill they want. And they can improve the skills in any way they want. There is no limitation on the skills.

Example: I want to have the skill to summon a giant. I just need to find the card that allows me to do this and fulfill the conditions for getting it, like maybe killing a certain kind of boss. If the skill and the conditions of fulfillment do not exist in Injum, I’m going to design it. And the community will curate and vote on it. Later on, I might want a skill where any summoned creatures do not disappear until destroyed by enemies. I will then design this skill if it does not exists yet. Once I have these two cards, I can combine them and use them to have a summoned giant that never goes away unless killed by my enemies.

Before I leave this topic I want to discuss something that is happening in POE. There is a saying in the movie The Incredibles that if everyone is a hero, then nobody is a hero. Look at the size of the skill tree in POE. Now look at the size of the skill tree in Diablo 2 or Titan Quest. With POE, it seems that there is no skill tree at all, everything is possible (until you see the whole picture by zooming out). With Diablo 2 or Titan Quest – the skill tree is very obvious. The limitations present are very obvious.

Hence with Injum what we have is actually an incredibly large skill tree that it is too large you can never see it. It becomes invisible to players. All they know is that there is no skill tree and no limitations. With the crowdsourced and infinitely growing nature of Injum, this skill tree is impossible to bound. And hence, it does not exist.

Let go of Character Levels

Levels in current RPGs represent character achievement and maturity. If we are both Level 50 Monks in Diablo 3, we both know what we can do. We know the limits of our skills and our attributes. We also can approximate the maximum damage we both can do based on the gears available to level 50 Monks.

With Injum we do not have this. The maturity of a character in Injum is defined by the current floor he is in and the contents of his book.

The differences are profound and far reaching. With Injum, a floor represents prestige. It means you were able to reach that floor. In other games, anyone can reach level 50. Whether you like it or not, by just playing you will reach level 50 in Diablo 3. In Injum, you are going to do something amazing and spectacular to reach level 50. That means you passed through 49 floors that other players have designed and the community have curated. That means in every floor, you won at least 10 times against other players. That means you fulfilled every requirement of every floor, which again are all designed by other players. It is just amazing.

And you can never experience this amazing thing by character levels of other RPG games. You reached Paragon 100 because you played long hours. You reached Floor 100 of Injum because you are awesome.

And finally, the difference between two players in Floor 50 of Injum could be the difference between heaven and hell. In Diablo 3, two Wizards at level 50 could be almost identical.

Hence character levels have to go because they don’t mean anything in Injum.

One Character Per Player

Every player in Injum can create only one character. Why create two or more characters when there is no difference between them? With the freedom we have achieved above -- (1) Class-less characters (2) Level-less characters (3) No skill trees – a player can turn his character into anything he want. This week, you might want your character to become a Wizard, assuming your Book has the cards for that. And next week you want it to become a Barbarian, assuming again, that your book has the skills for that.

In other words, instead of creating multiple characters to enjoy some skills and play-style, you are going to collect and grow your Book of spells, skills, and weapons.

This flexibility and freedom is just amazing.

Every Character has a Book

With most RPGs you have the stash. But with Injum you have the revolutionary concept of the Book.

The Book is very similar to the one used by players of Magic. It contains cards that can represent skills, spells, or weapons, or whatever the community can come up with. There is no limitation. If a designer can think of it and the game technology allows it, and if the community votes for it, it will be added in Injum.

Some examples of Book cards:

- (Weapon) Sword of Ichimaru – a sword that can elongate and spear all enemies in front of you
- (Skill) Cunning of Ichimaru – Set on fire anything struck by the Sword of Ichimaru
- (Spell) Vengence of Ichimaru – The Sword of Ichimaru will seek the target anywhere he is once the spell is cast

By collecting all of these three cards and placing them in your Book, you can use them against your enemies.

You can have as many card as you can collect in your book. But that does not mean you can use all of them against anyone. You have to bind your Book cards against your keyboard and all keyboard have limitations. Let us say that we allow 10 keyboard bindings for now. That means you can only use 10 cards at any time against enemies.

More Info on Cards

Some cards have a limitation on the number it can be used. Once the maximum number of usage has been reached, it will disappear from the character’s book. And sometimes there are conditions that must be met when it can be used. They are powerful, unique and differ from each other.

All cards in Injum will be curated and designed by players.

It’s not about Weapon Damage. It’s about What it can do

There is another big difference between Injum and other RPG games. All weapons in Injum have the same base damage. Regardless of what floor you found them or what monster you killed to get them, they are all the same in damage. (It’s our solution also to the problem of getting one-hit, making PVP superior in Injum as compared to others)

With Injum, it is not about the damage. It is about what the weapon can do. And by combining your weapon with other cards, you can make it unique and very different from others even though they are the same weapons.

Example:

- (Weapon) Antaeus’ Blade – a sword you found killing the giant Antaeus
- (Skill) Wrath of Antaeus – you will be able to summon Antaeus as long as your enemy has a summoned creature and you are using Antaeus’ Blade

From a boring sword, it becomes amazing because of a skill card that enhances it.

And there is no limit to things like this. The limit is the imagination of the players who design them.
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Blaze speaking for Injum

A continuation of above.

More Info on Injum Floors

Every floor in Injum has a requirement. They are equivalent to major quests in typical RPG games. It means you can not enter a floor without fulfilling its requirement.

Example: Let us say that you want to enter Floor 88. The requirement of floor 88 is that you bring the Cloak of Baraggan. You then research the Injum database of lore and myth and you find out that Baraggan is the second lieutenant of the King of the Dead (or whatever, Players are going to create this awesome mythology with the curation of the community ).

You then find the portal to the Kingdom of the Dead and battle hundreds of monsters and finally do a face-to-face with Baraggan. Because you are awesome and thanks to your Book, you were able to kill him. After killing him, you will be able to get some loot, some cards for your book, and finally get his cloak.

Afterwards you go back to the tower and present the requirement. Finally you can enter the floor.

However take note that you are only eligible for entering the floor if you satisfy the minimum required wins against other players. This is critical towards balancing the PVP and PVE elements of the game. Satisfying the floor requirements is PVE. Completing the minimum wins required is PVP.

Let us say you have entered floor 88. You are not yet eligible for entering floor 89. You need to get a minimum of 10 wins against other players. Once you complete that will you be only eligible to face the requirements of floor 89.

And while you are at floor 88, you can stay there as long as you want. You can even aim to become a Floor Master by defeating whoever is the current Floor Master. This will be a sponsored match and is one of the means of making money for Injum and the players. There will be cash prizes and the game will be broadcast to everyone within Injum.

Note though that you can be kicked out of the current floor you are in. If you lose 4 matches in a row or if you have not participated in any battle for a month (or some value that the community decided), you will go one floor lower.

Battle Olympiad

Once in a while, there will be special tournaments where everyone in the same floor can participate. For example, one month from now, there will be a Battle Olympiad in floor 80. Even those players who have passed floor 80 can participate by entering the floor again. As long as they are in the floor when the special event begins, they will be able to participate.

There are many things that can happen in a Battle Olympiad. It’s up to the community to select the design of the game mechanics that will be used.

Here is an example of a Battle Olympiad:

Let us say that there are 500 current players in floor 80. Each of them will be given a number tag. They must take care and protect this number tag. If they don’t have their number tags at the end of the event, they are disqualified from winning the game.

The rules for this Battle Olympiad are as follows:

1) A maximum of five players can win.
2) The first players to complete their goal win. Once there are five winners, the event is over.
2) Every player will be given a number tag that they must get. They must find out who owns this number tag, hunt him, and then take his tag. Once you get your target’s tag, you can go back to the tower and be proclaimed a winner.
3) If you can’t find your target’s tag, you can still win by collecting 100 tags. Once you get 100 tags, you can go back to the tower.
4) When a player is in battle, gets injured, and reaches 20% of his life, he will automatically drop all the tags that he has for 10 seconds (he won’t be able to pick them up for 10 seconds), including his own tag. Other players who are near him can then snatch and get them.
5) If a player dies while in the event, all of his tags will drop on the ground and that will be the end of him. Other players will come and get them.

Looking at the rules above, it will make sense that players should team up with each other. It is this kind of flexibility that will make Injum incredibly exciting and superbly fun. Every event is designed by players and curated by the community. It will be fun and amazing to see what the community of players can come up with.
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Blaze speaking for Injum

A continuation of above.

The Actual Game Should come Much Later

The focus and priority for now is not the graphics nor the art that is involved in Injum. It is not even the funding. It is getting the game structure and mechanics right.

We are reversing the process on how the industry is working right now. They first make the game and then involve the community later. We are going to disrupt this by involving the community from the start. And once the momentum is too strong to be ignored, the magical billionaire will come out and fund the game engine, the art, and the graphics.

If we are going to fail with Injum we will fail at the concept level. We will not waste anybody’s programming skill nor graphics designing skill. At the end it is an exercise of creative thinking. And it won’t be a complete loss, because there is pleasure in imagining things and being able to share those to others who value the same things.

We must win in the conceptual level first.

Injum should become conceptually superior to any game or upcoming RPG game.

When Injum has reached the state that it is too delicious and too good to stay just a concept, somebody is going to make it real. We must lay our faith on that.

The Three Most Important Things in Summary

- The game is the end game. This solves the issue that all recent games faced (lack of end game material causing player discontent or boredom). With Injum, the challenges of the game never ends.
- Everything is possible. If the players want something, it should be possible. Possible does not mean easy. Design it as difficult as you want, but it should be possible. (example – I want to socket the weapon. Oh that is a chore. Then make it not-a-chore! Make it possible even if you have to make it difficult!)
- Players control the destiny of the game. This will disrupt and change the industry forever.

Stay foolish and hungry

In an interview Steve Jobs said that when he and Wozniak started, they did not really know what they were doing. But they moved on and battled the giant IBM. Many people who are pursing a big dream don’t really know what they are up to, otherwise they would have just quit. It is the jaded group of people that will serve as resistance at the early stage.

I have no experience in game programming nor do I know anything about graphics and arts. But I know what kind of game I want to play and I deeply want to play that game and share that to the world.

It is the best game I can imagine and I am going to design it with others who want to play that game.

We don’t have the funding or anything, but we have something that money can’t buy. It’s the vision. We are creating the biggest and most awesome crowdsourced game.

Linux and Wikipedia as Models for Injum

We have seen the power of the community in open source projects like Linux and crowdsourced endeavors like Wikipedia. We will achieve the same with Injum. We just need our own Linus Torvalds and our own Jimmy Wales. With the community united it can create amazing things.

How to Achieve the Goals of Injum

We are going to begin with the website for Injum. This will be the bastion where designers meet and lay the foundation for the game. It will grow from here. Everything needed to make it a reality will be determined here. And once we have the structure up and running, we can start designing the skills, the weapons, the monsters, etc, everything. We will grow the community and introduce to them the concept where players do not just play games, but actually control its content, its mechanics, and ultimately, its destiny.

http://injum.com
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before continuing I would like you to present other examples apart from D3, it seems very anti-D3 centric from everything I've read so far, and only PoE mentioned here and there. As much as I'm concerned most of the ideas presented ultimately will backfire in a sense. I'm reading it as if I'm a player, the thing with the skills already is like PoE's skill gem, you either find them or you don't, meaning player's dont have a choice in what they are going to build, it's simply RNG that will get them that ability. The player isn't unique, the system makes them unique, not player choice. PoE quest rewards grant you certain skill gems so it is still player choice driven, not a set skill gem that is granted upon completion.

And believe me that will piss people off to no end, just like how certain skill gems are dropped only on PoE, which goes through trade to obtain most of the time.

There are a LOT of ARPGs out on the market, just not all of them look like PoE Diablo3, Torchlight2. They are indeed ACTION games and RPG games. They should not be ignored, if you are expecting to bring players a new experience. Games like Vindictus are MMOARPG but in reality it's party sizes of 1-8 players for runs, that's exactly like D2, and this game differs immensely between classes and works well. Games like Dragon Nest are also MMOARPG, they call it MMO simply because in Town you see millions of people or hundreds around you, without that lobby you may as well call it just an ARPG which is the core of game play. 1-4 players or so generally.

C9 was different from Vindictus, but some people made the comparison anyways, C9 is more lik street fighter with input combination and enemy juggling. It is very much so an ARPG and has skill trees and skill books and weapon customization and equipment customization and character customization. Most players who couldn't stand that complexity simply quit, others came for the graphics and the intense PvP that came with it. They even hold PvP tournaments.

If you need videos here's a playlist of certain elements, just between C9 Vindictus and Path of Exile, they are all in their respective lists.

http://www.youtube.com/user/KyrandisX/videos?flow=grid&view=1
You can also contact me there if you'd like, I check that more frequently than here. My old channel I left it as is, because that was for 3D work.

They are all ARPGs. To innovate you must be able to differ from all of these by improving upon them in one way or another, and if you remove features then you better have something up your sleeve to accomodate, or you're short-selling your game concept with features.

ArcheAge reminds me of...
The book system, I have heard of such things before, to claim it doesn't exist means there hasn't been enough checking out of the latest games, C9 adopts a book system much like you mentioned, but it works on a skill tree system, that isn't presented as a skill tree but in terms of functionality is a skill tree, it's presented in grids.

I can source a lot of material just off the top of my head like a game encyclopedia which is why I'm piss angry at myself why that post earlier I tried to write didn't submit.

PoE's skill tree isn't vast or limitless or limited restriction, it grants more freedom than other ARPGs out there, most players are stuck on "oh its a skill tree". No in essence it's "where do my stats go" and is a progress indicator that your character is growing in power. Their skill GEMS are exactly like Diablo 3 if anyone fails to realize. Only thing is, is that it's restricted to slots you have on gear, but is completely upgradeable in quality to grant additional effects to the gem and it levels based on combat experience.

You don't need to say things like "it is amazing" to sell us a concept, we are here to help and just as much provide feedback already, it makes your concept verbose and somehow a little less confident if you have to say them. As an artist, before I graduated the demo reel was basically, show us the best first, and keep the crap for last, the good things will speak on its own, the bad won't.

The problem that lies there is if you say it too much we'll start looking at other things as a provoking challenge to show you such other systems exist, and then it won't seem so amazing anymore :/

People thought D3's system is one of a kind, it really isn't, it's like Guild Wars 1 functionality, and has a Call of Duty unlocking scheme with your skills being a weapon loadout and your perks being passive skills. The correlation between D3 and Call of duty in terms of build and skill functionality is extremely apparent, only difference is one is RPG and the other is FPS. RPG is generally PvE centric, FPS is generally PvP centric. Which like D3 is peopel grinding days on end for ... nothing really, and CoD PvP people shooitng each other over and over, they don't exactly redo campaign repeatedly.

err I don't really understand this part
03/29/2013 01:26 AMPosted by ZaraAllegra
Even if twenty players are fire-casters, I’m sure no one will be like my fire-caster character (Blaze). I’m 1000% sure of that.

So.. character name is the only differentiation :( ?

03/29/2013 01:26 AMPosted by ZaraAllegra
Before I leave this topic I want to discuss something that is happening in POE. There is a saying in the movie The Incredibles that if everyone is a hero, then nobody is a hero.

everyone in Diablo 3 is an overpowered nephalem, and it is highly enforced repeatedly that way, much to everything else that makes no sense.

- (Weapon) Sword of Ichimaru – a sword that can elongate and spear all enemies in front of you
- (Skill) Cunning of Ichimaru – Set on fire anything struck by the Sword of Ichimaru
- (Spell) Vengence of Ichimaru – The Sword of Ichimaru will seek the target anywhere he is once the spell is cast

By collecting all of these three cards and placing them in your Book, you can use them against your enemies.

You can have as many card as you can collect in your book. But that does not mean you can use all of them against anyone. You have to bind your Book cards against your keyboard and all keyboard have limitations. Let us say that we allow 10 keyboard bindings for now. That means you can only use 10 cards at any time against enemies.

So all weapons skills and spells are denoted by Cards? There is only one item of importance in the game then is just these cards, a balance that will be highly hard to adjust and fix for everyone to have equal chance to gain one of 3 categories, weapons skill or spell. and if someone wanted to play with magic, they have no incentive to create on their own since the system generates these by luck of the draw? Nerfing and buffing as you go won't make players happy, D3 is a good example of what happened in the past.

A triple card system of if you do have a weapon skill and spell, you might want to look up Survival Project, a game of early 2000s or 1998s of an ARPG that came from KR and was only alive in the NA regions for a short time, I played the KR version, this is about the most skill-based game I played back then, the only problem was !@#$ty networking and lag.

The focus and priority for now is not the graphics nor the art that is involved in Injum. It is not even the funding. It is getting the game structure and mechanics right.

We are reversing the process on how the industry is working right now. They first make the game and then involve the community later. We are going to disrupt this by involving the community from the start. And once the momentum is too strong to be ignored, the magical billionaire will come out and fund the game engine, the art, and the graphics.

If we are going to fail with Injum we will fail at the concept level. We will not waste anybody’s programming skill nor graphics designing skill. At the end it is an exercise of creative thinking. And it won’t be a complete loss, because there is pleasure in imagining things and being able to share those to others who value the same things.

hmm.. don't be so sure, PoE funded itself between 19 like-minded individuals with the same goal in mind and they could care less about the funding as long as they got their game to be what they wanted. That's what I'm looking for, good game, not cash even if I am a student struggling to make ends meet.

The main question is though, how much of a community are you going to get involved before it's too much? Projects that smart with a small team generally produce good results. Gabe Newell successful co-founder and CEO of valve makes excellent points:
"4 programmer guys come up to me say they have a great idea and need an office space" Gabe: "Okay go take up an office and put a sign on the door or something so no one disturbs you" Weeks/months later : new innovation hits market.
Portal - Made by a few people, extremely succesful
CS Source : modified by one passionate guy. - Extremely successful
DotA - Made by a handful of people literally like 5 guys, two split off to make their RiotGames, the other 2 or 3 went to Valve.

Having a lot of people involved, means - Getting them up to speed, getting their opinion involved so they aren't an ignored asset, and teaching them the system so they can implement their idea. Doesn't sound feasible if you have a whole community affecting everything about the game in almost 99% of their aspects unless you're creating MineCraft HD, RPG-mode.

WarZ is an example that some are out there to just moneygrab, is a crowd-generated idea. Wasn't impressed.

In an interview Steve Jobs said that when he and Wozniak started, they did not really know what they were doing. But they moved on and battled the giant IBM. Many people who are pursing a big dream don’t really know what they are up to, otherwise they would have just quit. It is the jaded group of people that will serve as resistance at the early stage.

I have no experience in game programming nor do I know anything about graphics and arts. But I know what kind of game I want to play and I deeply want to play that game and share that to the world.

Actually I studied this, they did know what they were doing, buy competitor's product, rip it open, dissect it in every manner, and make a 1up of it, and sell it and make money. If Steve Jobs never had John Lasseter in making Toy Story you wouldn't have ipods and iphones today. That was a risk and a gamble for an all things go into this iPod product... i think i might've eschewed something different from memory.

Either way, if you're a programmer and you studied most of the architecture, there's a reason why most of them say "God I'm selling my soul out" when they walk into an apple store looking for an apple product. Most. If you meet a programmer that knows linux fedora and the other OS's inside out, you should be wary that they probably know more than any other programmer out there. My teacher's tell me to delete Windows because it's a virus, which isn't half as bad as what they say about Macs. "You can't do anything on them why bother".

Injum should become conceptually superior to any game or upcoming RPG game.

When Injum has reached the state that it is too delicious and too good to stay just a concept, somebody is going to make it real. We must lay our faith on that.


Give me a concise description of what will be the attraction? in 5 sentences or less, I'll believe you have an idea in mind, but you should be able to make me a pitch within 30 seconds of reading. It's still very out in the open, with the descriptions you've provided it sounds like it's at a brainstorming stage still.

The whole tower concept just sounds like Torchlight1 so far, 1 very very long dungeon except the game is created via x amount of players involved and no actual requirement. Sounds very messy to be honest. I won't be putting my faith on such a gamble that someone's going to pick it up and make it real. In my world I Make it real through my own dedication and efforts, not wait for someone to pick it up.

Bill Gates drops out of college because he had a good idea and know what he wanted. Micro hardware architecture with programmed Software that helped illustrate these things to a more interactive level by utilizing windows as a form of displaying and utilizing hardware specifications. Thus was born Windows and MicroSoft.
Edited by KradisZ#1651 on 3/29/2013 10:19 PM PDT
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well thats alot of reading and im not gonna read it unless i seriously get into this and meet some people and talk with them but one thing i would like to see is a new kind of design in end game progressing, wow puts out more raids. d3 adds paragon lvls. etc etc. you ever watch sword art online? the main thing i like about that is the 100 floor of lvls. and each floor has its own dungeon and boss. im not into an rpg to smash buttons and down stuff in a week. i enjoy the story and challenge it brings along with that people/friends you meet.
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Agree with KradisZ.

I like the principals you've outlined for this game, but for everything involved up until you actually begin the production stage, keep the team as small as possible.

Too many cooks will burn up the kitchen ;)

Count me as interested in what you come up with!
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Blaze/ZaraAllegra,

Thanks for providing a detailed description of the game play. I'm glad you put so much thought into it. Remember its important to find a dedicated team that share your goals.

Your next step.
How close are you on a working prototype (Alpha)? Perhaps a tower-floor and few pre-made characters. This will help give us a clearer picture of how things work (such as graphics, tower-floor progression, the interface, your skill-book concept and how customization works) as well as generate interest in your game.

The alpha should only be released to a small group of testers (ie not public).Try to include a diverse group of testers; arpg vet, casuals, rpg enthusiast, etc. Keep in mind that the testers should represent your target audience. After collecting the feedback and that you can begin to work on a beta. [Overtime, you can release design sketches and screen shots to the public at this point]. Then reintroduce the beta to the same group of testers. Ask them what they think of the changes. Repeat this process and once you are comfortable, you can begin the public beta.

When you interact with your small group of testers, be sure to ask why they like or dislike your features, how would they make it better, etc. Note it down. Later you can discuss its merits with your team, this helps you a lot in-case you overlook something. As a sign of gratitude to your testers, you can let them know you will mention each tester by name on your game credits.

--------------------------

To KradisZ,

Just so you know i mentioned you by name because i know you are reachable here and i had faith you would be able to provide good feedback ;)
Edited by TheCursed#6888 on 3/29/2013 10:53 PM PDT
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RPGs is the most complex genre, and the longest to develop. A core structure and concept is very much needed before heading forward.

As TheCursed said, a picture or even a sketch to illustrate what you mean would be good, if you have no working Alpha or prototype.

You mention like 500 or so players on the screen, how will 500 people fit in 1 floor? 500 is a lot, when you go to a hotel banquet not even 500 fit into a room or someone's wedding. Or they do, but it's not THAT huge.

To KradisZ,

Just so you know i mentioned you by name because i know you are reachable here and i had faith you would be able to provide good feedback ;)

oh thanks LOL, yeah I'm definitely passionate about games... to an insane extent.

here's work i did in the past for anyone who's curious, my talent isnt that high of a calibre or i have no measure since i've never been hired in the industry... though I've done work not for money though..

lowpoly crap and import export modding in League of Legends
http://smg.photobucket.com/user/kradisZ/media/ss2.jpg.html?sort=3&o=73
http://smg.photobucket.com/user/kradisZ/media/ezrealfin.jpg.html?sort=3&o=70

that's just low stuff though.. i have one really high-res thing somewhere else i can't seem to find it, it's probably on my website album somewhere..
Edited by KradisZ#1651 on 3/31/2013 3:57 PM PDT
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Quite a bit of info in this thread, and this game sounds like a pretty interesting concept. However, like a few people mentioned, you would need to provide concept images for the look and feel of your game. I also have a degree in computer graphics and would be interested in helping a project like this if you can get a basic foundation going.
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I would buy your game if you add single-player.
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