Diablo® III

Rare Wands' Max AP Fixed Roll Should Be Removed

Primary Argument: Remove the "+Maximum Arcane Power" fixed roll from Rare Desolator Wands and all other Rare Wands that roll with ilvl 63 properties. Give Rare ilvl 63 Wands the same "true" 6 Random Property capabilities as other Class Specific Weapons have.
-This argument is carried through the original post. Many subsequent responses have been added to foster a full understanding of the problems caused by this fixed roll.
Secondary Argument: If, for some inexplicable reason, ilvl 63 Property Wizard wands simply must be gimped by a fixed roll, make it Arcane Power on Critical Hit. That affix is actually useful to wizards and it annihilates the +Maximum Arcane Power mod in virtually every aspect. The only other Class Specific Weapon type with a fixed roll on ilvl 63 property versions are Ceremonial Knives, but they have +Mana regen (the better of their two). Shouldn't Wizard's fixed roll also be the better of their two (APoC), if it must be there?
-This is not ideal, but it's less damaging than the current fixed roll. It would handle most of the major problems.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

I'm tired of wands being automatically gimped (compared to other class's weapons) because of this fixed roll (and how frequently it rolls on Strike Wands and below). Is it fixed on Strike Wands and below when they roll with ilvl 63 properties? It seems like it - or that it is attached to some other affix roll. If so, remove that as well.
Edit: Confirmed that ALL wands that roll ilvl 63 properties have the +Max AP fixed roll.
Edit: Confirmed that ALL ilvl 63 Rare Ceremonial Knives have the Mana Regeneration fixed roll. However, + Mana Regeneration is much stronger than +Max Mana, and many may argue "necessary" with faster attack speeds.

I want this wand to be able to drop with ilvl 63 properties (as well as other iterations of "true" 6 random properties):
1) Damage Affix (physical/lightning/fire/cold/arcane/holy)
2) Attack Speed % (or Weapon Damage %)
3) Life Steal %
4) Arcane Power on Critical Hit
5) Critical Hit Damage %
6) Socket

With Love,
Mike

Copied from Post #13, with supplements from Post #59:
Here's why Wizard Wands are gimped in a way that other Class Specific Weapons are not (by having a fixed, consumed roll of +Max AP):
Barbarian Mighty Weapons
The Barbarian passive Weapons Master essentially make Maces, Axes, Swords, and Daggers available to the class as strong alternatives to their class weapon. Most Barbarian players use Weapons Master to essentially turn Maces and Axes into Barbarian class weapons (think about it). Further, Mighty weapons still aren't gimped in their rolls, ie- a Mighty Weapon can still roll all six properties in any combination to arrive at a competitive mp10 weapon. Additionally, a Barbarian player could get creative and find a reason to use a different passive over Weapons Master or to seek the Fury bonus from Weapons Master while using a Mighty Weapon. Here's a reason to consider using a Mighty Weapon with Weapons Master - Infinite HotA build (HotA becomes your main attack). HotA gains 1% critical hit chance per 5 fury remaining. Gaining 3 Fury per hit can do wonders to increase its critical hit chance and in maintaining infinite HotAs, especially when combined with a few -HotA Fury Cost pieces.

Witch Doctor Ceremonial Knives
***Rare Ceremonial Knives are the only other Class Specific Weapon with a fixed roll in its ilvl 63 property form. However, unlike Wizards' Wands, Witch Doctors' Ceremonial Knives actually have their stronger resource affix as the fixed roll (+Mana Regeneration, as opposed to +Max Mana).

In Re: Ceremonial Knives Attack Too Fast to Manage Mana
Manajuma's Carving Knife has the same APS as rare Ceremonial Knives because it is a Ceremonial Knife. There are ways to manage your Mana with faster weapons. Your skills provide plenty. The 0Dog spec, for example, does not care how fast you attack since Sacrifice costs no Mana to cast. Perhaps you should look into finding a spam-able skill that drastically combats your Mana consumption.
I see what you're saying regarding Mana management, but it looks to be combatable:
This is at 2.55 APS.
http://oi49.tinypic.com/55p0t4.jpg
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/witch-doctor#.g...b!Uf!.a...Z
I haven't really played with it very much. Insert anything else you want for the remaining skill slots to buff up and spend your Mana dealing damage. Get creative. :)

Monk Daibo
6 properties, no fixed rolls. May have some use for possible spirit regen rolls or monk skill rolls like Tempest Rush. Skorn is the typical choice though.
If nothing else, my response is, "Can you argue Staves for Wizards? I know it's not class-specific, but it's the equivalent."
Possible Rare Daibo 1 (just not sure if the Dex roll can go higher on a single roll): http://d3up.com/i/6990082
Possible Rare Daibo 2 (TR Crit Chance): http://d3up.com/i/6990776
Possible Rare Daibo 3 (Bells Crit Chance): http://d3up.com/i/6990893
Skorn goes up to 1476 dps and 340 Dexterity (plus the bleed mod). So, yes, the Skorn is better unless one of the rolls on the Rare Daibo is better as a class specific bonus (like Tempest Rush or Wave of Light critical hit chance; or Spirit Regen). Perhaps keeping the 300 Dex roll instead of Life Steal on the Wave of Light Daibo for a PvP weapon would be a good option?

Monk Fist
6 properties, no fixed rolls. The rares can be just as good as any other rare one-hander for a Monk that isn't using a Won Kim Lau + Echoing Fury combo.

Demon Hunter Hand Crossbow
6 properties, no fixed rolls. The rares can roll the same damage as Calamity with Life Steal or +Max Discipline instead of the Hatred Regeneration affix (and can't have Calamity's unique property of casting Marked for Death on proc). I'm sure you can come up with a reason to trade Hatred Regen and that Marked for Death proc for Life Steal, Max Disc, or something else.

In Re: Rare Hand Crossbow Can't Compete with Calamity argument (copied from Posts #20 & #59):
Not many people pick them up. Less people picking them up means less "godly" rolls found. Less godly rolled hand crossbows found means it's less likely for me to find one. Further, those that are found do not currently have to be on the auction house for me to look up for you. That being said, here's one that is on the auction house that doesn't have max damage:
http://i49.tinypic.com/2w3yvbc.jpg
That hand crossbow does not have maximum rolls, but here's how good a rare hand crossbow can currently roll:
Physical Damage: http://d3up.com/i/6815370
Elemental Damage(other than cold): http://d3up.com/i/6815368
*Note: I found some sources that suggest hand crossbow damage can go up to 1524 for physical damage, but I don't see how that can be true with the maximums of each affix roll.
Here's what the best possible (*Some discrepancy between what can actually roll and what is listed on the Battle.net page) Calamity looks like: http://d3up.com/i/6988107
I believe you can find a reason to use either (or both) of the above hand crossbows over a Calamity. Finding it is more challenging than finding the Calamity, but that doesn't mean they can't be found. In the case of the rare wand that I am speaking of, they cannot currently be found no matter how long you look or how lucky you are, because of the automatic consumption of one of the 6 properties by +Max AP.

Copied from Post #20:
Now I will expand my argument by adding the following:

This fixed roll consumption for +Max Arcane Power gimps the entire Wizard class in the following two, glaring ways:

1) Forced Inter-Class Competition for Weapons

This fixed affix roll (consumption of 1/6 rolls for an unwanted affix) also, therefore, gimps the Wizard class because Wizards are forced to choose gimped rare wands for APoC (which can't compete for damage and/or life steal which we need them to), a Chantodo's Wand for APoC (which has its particular uses - ie CM Freeze specs), or compete with every class for the non-class specific weapons. Whereas every other class has the choice of their class specific weapons to choose from (where they only compete with others of their own class [and RNG] to obtain) and/or the choice to compete with every class for non-class specific weapons. Witch Doctors' Ceremonial Knives' fixed roll is the equivalent of changing the fixed roll on Wands from +Max AP to APoC. As stated at the start - it's not ideal for a wizard to have a fixed roll on wands, even if it is APoC, but it's far better than +Max AP being the fixed roll.

2) Limitations on Skill Diversity
The reason why people make different builds is largely not just for !@#$s and giggles. It's to create higher levels of efficiency in whatever they are striving to do (Elites only, white mobs only, high MPs, low MPs, Bosses, Ubers, PvP, etc.). This fixed affix consumption is a limitation that severely hinders the Wizard class's ability to creatively expand skill diversity. I will not take responsibility, or time, to theory craft the next high-efficiency build and include it here. However, I will tell you that I can get far more creative if I could have both the damage and resource management of a real six property wand.
I believe that the fixed APoC 7th property idea (mentioned briefly above) would give Wizards even greater leeway in build creation by allowing Wizards to get the same "typical" affixes for damage found on non-class specific weapons and resource management. However, if the APoC 7th property idea is implemented, it would only be fair to other classes to give every class their class-specific resource management affix (Wizard-APoC; DH-Hatred Regen; Barb-Max Fury; WD-Mana Regen; Monk-Spirit Regen) as a fixed 7th roll on class specific weapons. Barbarians have a fully-integrated resource management system of gaining Fury when striking and when hit, so it's no detriment for them to only get +Max Fury.

Other Wizard Balancing Suggestion Threads
Meteor - Meteor Shower "Smart Targeting" Suggestion: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/8518532819
Hydra [3 Max Hydra, Proc Coefficients, LS, and Skill Runes] Suggestions: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/8568987916#1
Familiar - Vigoron, Arcanot, and Cannoneer Suggestions: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/8568888210#1
Arcane Orb - Frozen Orb [Arcane Orbit Replacement]: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/8569308156?page=1#0
Edited by Mike#1867 on 4/9/2013 5:40 PM PDT
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Good point, GL! >=)

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Dear Blizzard,

Please remake the Game. A proper remake all i ask with Blizzard North.

Thanks Dude.
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I don't know why this post deserves to be bumped so much. Obviously this isn't going to change.

Just funny that WitchDoctors Knives don't come with +30 mana, Barb mighty weapons with +5 max fury, DH Crossbows +2 disciplin, and Monk Fist weapons +10 spirit.
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If it's broken, don't fix it - Jay Wilson
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I've actually made good use of +max AP on Wizard items. I used to use a LL/ Meteor build with over 150 max AP, which made dropping 3 Molten Impact Meteors on an enemy at once possible, which was surprisingly effective. No, it's probably not as powerful an affix as AP on crit, but it's far from useless with the right builds, and there's no need to remove it as a roll on wands.

What I would love to see to make it more useful though, would be a rune option on one or two skills like the Barbarian's Dread Bomb run for Weapon Throw, that cost all of the player's remaining AP and dealt damage depending how much AP was spent. Something like that could go a long ways towards making high max AP builds more powerful and viable.
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@semiXform: I don't find it to be funny that rare wizard class weapons have a random roll consumed by a fixed roll that is so useless. Take your rare wand for example. Change the +Max Arcane Power affix and make it a +80-100% Critical Hit Damage affix. See how competitive that wand can be? Now understand that the fixed +Max Arcane Power affix automatically consumes one of the 6 properties a rare wand can have. Therefore, a 6 property rare wand is effectively a 5 property wand with +Max Arcane as the automatic 6th property. No ilvl 63 property rare wand even has the potential to roll with a different affix. This cripples rare wands.

@CerealKiller: I know, right?

@ChemistCarl: APoC would beat +Max AP in effective dps (by a lot) for both the meteor build and the hypothetical build you are speaking of.
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WD daggers have a very high attack speed, which is HIGHLY counter-intuitive since the class desperately wants slower weapons to better manage mana (I use a skorn and 4 piece zunis, mana problem pretty much fixed). Monk's Daibos are just gimped, there is nothing else that needs saying. Fists can be really nice though. DH hand xbows are worthless compared to manticore, and DML makes dual wielding a non-option. Barbarians weapon mastery makes mighty weapons in the main hand a joke for all but undergeared players.

I really can't tell you why Mike, but it would appear that Blizzard intentionally gimped most of the classes unique weapons. At least wizards have unique legendary weapons they use, I do believe monks and DHs are the only others that do, and for the most part, they don't use there's.
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FIX MAGIC MAN

BUT

BLIZZ SAY

U Buy BaBa?

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@Guybrush: Here's why that statement is not accurate (and Wizard Wands are gimped in a way that other Class Specific Weapons are not [by having a fixed, consumed roll of +Max AP]):
Barbarian Mighty Weapons
The Barbarian passive Weapons Master essentially make Maces, Axes, Swords, and Daggers available to the class as strong alternatives to their class weapon. Most Barbarian players use Weapons Master to essentially turn Maces and Axes into Barbarian class weapons (think about it). Further, Mighty weapons still aren't gimped in their rolls, ie- a Mighty Weapon can still roll all six properties in any combination to arrive at a competitive mp10 weapon. Additionally, a Barbarian player could get creative and find a reason to use a different passive over Weapons Master or to seek the Fury bonus from Weapons Master while using a Mighty Weapon. Here's a reason to consider using a Mighty Weapon with Weapons Master - Infinite HotA build (HotA becomes your main attack). HotA gains 1% critical hit chance per 5 fury remaining. Gaining 3 Fury per hit can do wonders to increase its critical hit chance and in maintaining infinite HotAs, especially when combined with a few -HotA Fury Cost pieces.

Witch Doctor Ceremonial Knives
Manajuma's Carving Knife has the same APS as rare Ceremonial Knives because it is a Ceremonial Knife. Rare Cervemonial Knives aren't gimped in their rolls, ie- a Ceremonial Knife can roll all six properties in any combination to arrive at a competitive mp10 weapon. There are ways to manage your Mana with faster weapons. Your skills provide plenty. The 0Dog spec, for example, does not care how fast you attack since Sacrifice costs no Mana to cast. Perhaps you should look into finding a spam-able skill that drastically combats your Mana consumption, ie- Haunt-Draining Spirit. Faster attack speed means you can put Draining Spirit on more targets, meaning you gain more Mana per second while you spam other skills.

Monk Daibo
6 properties, no fixed rolls. May have some use for possible spirit regen rolls or monk skill rolls like Tempest Rush. Skorn is the typical choice though.
If nothing else, my response is, "Can you argue Staves for Wizards? I know it's not class-specific, but it's the equivalent."

Monk Fist
6 properties, no fixed rolls. The rares can be just as good as any other rare one-hander for a Monk that isn't using a Won Kim Lau + Echoing Fury combo.

Demon Hunter Hand Crossbow
6 properties, no fixed rolls. The rares can roll the same damage as Calamity with Life Steal or +Max Discipline instead of the Hatred Regeneration affix (and can't have Calamity's unique property of casting Marked for Death on proc). I'm sure you can come up with a reason to trade Hatred Regen and that Marked for Death proc for Life Steal, Max Disc, or something else.

@MannerCookie: Hahaha!
Edited by Mike#1867 on 3/30/2013 12:22 AM PDT
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Bump, there is no need for max ap to be an affix always seen let us have a mother roll to increase the possibility of getting that sick wand please. Thanks!
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I like the idea of having max ap, but also realize it does gimp wands. I believe instead of removing it, it should take the place of a 7th affix. This way wands actualy make sense to choose over other weapons. All class only weapons should have the classes resource affix as a 7th affix, and non-class items should just be able to roll slightly higher damage to balance it out.
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03/30/2013 12:18 AMPosted by Mike
The rares can roll the same damage as Calamity

Find me a rare 1h xbow anywhere close to a top end calamity.
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@Balerion: :)

@Camisto: Interesting idea, but that might make rare class-specific weapons slightly too strong. However, I would not be opposed to making APoC a fixed 7th roll on rare wands (and removing the +max arcane power fixed roll), since they are still gimped for rolls with the APoC mod consuming a roll (1/6) and how mandatory APoC is. That change would make wands the clear choice for every wizard, which might not be such a bad thing. Wizards using swords, axes, maces, and spears just seems stupid from a "step back and remember that this is a wizard" stand-point...

@BurningJC007: Not many people pick them up. Less people picking them up means less "godly" rolls found. Less godly rolled hand crossbows found means it's less likely for me to find one. Further, those that are found do not currently have to be on the auction house for me to look up for you. That being said, here's one that is on the auction house that doesn't have max damage:
http://i49.tinypic.com/2w3yvbc.jpg
That hand crossbow does not have maximum rolls, but here's how good a rare hand crossbow can currently roll:
Physical Damage: http://d3up.com/i/6815370
Elemental Damage(other than cold): http://d3up.com/i/6815368
*Note: I found some sources that suggest hand crossbow damage can go up to 1524 for physical damage, but I don't see how that can be true with the maximums of each affix roll.
I believe you can find a reason to use either (or both) of the above hand crossbows over a Calamity. Finding it is more challenging than finding the Calamity, but that doesn't mean they can't be found. In the case of the rare wand that I am speaking of, they cannot currently be found no matter how long you look or how lucky you are, because of the automatic consumption of one of the 6 properties by +Max AP.

If the point of my argument was in any way murky or unclear before now (that the automatic consumption of a random property with +Max AP is glaringly detrimental to wands), I believe my point is now clear. Please let me know if anything still needs to be clarified or if anyone has any other arguments. I simply cannot see why Blizzard has isolated rare wands to do this to, and, thus, gimped wands in this way.

Now I will expand my argument by adding the following:

This fixed roll consumption for +Max Arcane Power gimps the entire Wizard class in the following two, glaring ways:

1) Forced Inter-Class Competition for Weapons
This fixed affix roll (consumption of 1/6 rolls for an unwanted affix) also, therefore, gimps the Wizard class because Wizards are forced to choose gimped rare wands for APoC (which can't compete for damage and/or life steal which we need them to), a Chantodo's Wand for APoC (which has its particular uses - ie CM Freeze specs), or compete with every class for the non-class specific weapons. Whereas every other class has the choice of their class specific weapons to choose from (where they only compete with others of their own class [and RNG] to obtain) and/or the choice to compete with every class for non-class specific weapons.

2) Limitations on Skill Diversity
The reason why people make different builds is largely not just for !@#$s and giggles. It's to create higher levels of efficiency in whatever they are striving to do (Elites only, white mobs only, high MPs, low MPs, Bosses, Ubers, PvP, etc.). This fixed affix consumption is a limitation that severely hinders the Wizard class's ability to creatively expand skill diversity. I will not take responsibility, or time, to theory craft the next high-efficiency build and include it here. However, I will tell you that I can get far more creative if I could have both the damage and resource management of a real six property wand.
I believe that the fixed APoC 7th property idea (mentioned briefly above) would give Wizards even greater leeway in build creation by allowing Wizards to get the same "typical" affixes for damage found on non-class specific weapons and resource management. However, if the APoC 7th property idea is implemented, it would only be fair to other classes to give every class their class-specific resource management affix (Wizard-APoC; DH-Hatred Regen; Barb-Max Fury; WD-Mana Regen; Monk-Spirit Regen) as a fixed 7th roll on class specific weapons. Barbarians have a fully-integrated resource management system of gaining Fury when striking and when hit, so it's no detriment for them to only get +Max Fury.
Edited by Mike#1867 on 3/30/2013 4:13 PM PDT
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