Diablo® III

T.D.P. Dual Wield discussion

This topic is for the discussion of the challenge outlined here:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/8481308425?page=1

The current members for the dual wield team are:

1) Wayneold
2) acrimony
3) Nived
4) zylog - pending acceptance

This topic is to contain posts concerning our gearing and build strategy for soloing MP10 Ubers with 1 billion gold in the most efficient way possible. So, for the team members mentioned and any other members of the Barb community who feel like having an active involvement (I'm looking at you PhatPhoEater, Dep, Nubtro, etc.) I have some questions of you:

1) Can you suggest a better team name? Team dual wield seems kinda.....lame....***Closed***

2) What build do you plan on using?

3) What are some concerns you would like to see addressing in our gearing strategy? Namely:

3a) Weapon choices
3b) Sustain
3c) EHP (it burns me even to say it)
3d) Movement speed
3e) Quality of each piece in terms of price (do we spend more gold on weapons and skimp on other pieces?)

4) Do you even lift?

Once again, some discussion will be in private, as we all have an interest in winning this contest, but for the greater good of the barb community, and in the interest of the funder of this challenge, Morpheus, most gearing/build strategy will be discussed in open forum and will be transparent.

Let's get it done.

EDIT: It has been decided, Team Double Penetration is our new name.....or T.D.P. for short.
Edited by Wayneold#1685 on 3/31/2013 7:59 PM PDT
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1) Can you suggest a better team name? Team dual wield seems kinda.....lame....

2) What build do you plan on using?

3) What are some concerns you would like to see addressing in our gearing strategy? Namely:

3a) Weapon choices
3b) Sustain
3c) EHP (it burns me even to say it)
3d) Movement speed
3e) Quality of each piece in terms of price (do we spend more gold on weapons and skimp on other pieces?)

4) Do you even lift?


Heh, I quoted my own post....so self-righteous....

1) Still thinking.....

2) I would like to use one of the following builds:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/barbarian#hUQRcP!ZYe!ZZZYbc

or

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/barbarian#hUQRVP!ZYX!ZZZYZc

With Dep's research here:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/8088618856?page=7

Showing the general time up that Berzerker Rage can have with Revenge in a build and DAKKON's video that has the fastest MP10 elite kill average I have seen with Revenge I would like to see if that kind of efficiency transfers to Uber kill time efficiency....I believe it can.

WW + OP:KS + Rend is a proven efficient method and if the Revenge build falters, or is unable to stay alive long enough to complete the task I would default to this, my favorite farming build.

3) SoJ seems mandatory....and we have determined getting a Barb SoJ is nice, but certainly not mandatory, and with several potential build choices this seems like an area where a 30/6% cold damage SoJ from another class might be the best choice in getting a cheap piece of gear with a high rate of efficiency for this challenge.

3a) Weapon choices....I think EF in your main hand would be the most efficient way to make it to a solid breakpoint. For one, the only Uber the fear proc works against is Maghda (I think....maybe Kulle?) Plus, in Chaz's newest video I noticed he took this approach and it seemed to work out wonderfully for him....

As far as an offhand, I think it really depends on what build people plan on using....if we have someone who's primary is going to be HoTA we might be best served with a high DPS sword with a lot of stats (which can get pricey) I will reserve judgement until I see what build people would like to use.

3b) I would personally like to see at least 5% life steal (8% would put this on easy mode....but might tie our hands as far as gearing and lower our potential damage output). I tend to neglect life regain and life on hit, but I feel like regain might have some merit, especially in the Kulle/Seige fight where they do the pick up / rock drop combo. If we can strategically incorporate some regain on armor we may be able to sneak out of our obligation to use more life steal and still be equally as effective.

3c) What's EHP?

3d) I would think if anyone plans on using WW (and I do) 24% move speed is a necessity

3e) I am not up on the AH as of late....I will need to do some research before I can answer this question appropriately

4) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXnzUFTde58
Edited by Wayneold#1685 on 3/31/2013 7:33 AM PDT
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the biggest question I have is hota vs double nado. double nado will make weapons much cheaper. the ruby re-work has made MH EFs so much more affordable.

May i suggest you guys farm up some portals and have a person with a gearset capable of both double nado/hota do a couple solo runs and see how far apart they are in time. This is something I've always wanted to do but didn't want to waste portals.

A big potential savings with double nado is getting a low dps OH. I have a 250dps OH sword with big stats that I was using and still hit 2mil tdps v elites, despite having a paper passive dps of 150k. I'm willing to lend it to the cause for testing to see how it fairs in a double nado timed practice run.

The big advantage to dual wield is that you have so many options at a lower price range. IMO you'll get more bang for your buck by getting the proper dps mods on armor/jewelry rather than monster weapons.
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lmao ww will destroy hota with a limited budget. hota is so gear depended. only disadvantage i see ww is losing time on magda and kulle.
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03/31/2013 07:00 AMPosted by Wayneold
1) Can you suggest a better team name? Team dual wield seems kinda.....lame....


How about Team Ambidextrous?
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Hi Wayneold, i play on EU, i'm not a uber player but i know quite well DTWW build, i only wanna give my contribution (if isn't a problem for you).

I use an identical build (the first you posted) for my solo uber-run and i find that it's great (i play ever w/o fury gen like u), but sometime i really miss a fury generator, this isn't a very problem, but i think that can slow my average kill-time.

03/31/2013 07:22 AMPosted by Wayneold
3) SoJ seems mandatory....and we have determined getting a Barb SoJ is nice, but certainly not mandatory, and with several potential build choices this seems like an area where a 30/6% cold damage SoJ from another class might be the best choice in getting a cheap piece of gear with a high rate of efficiency for this challenge.

I agree

03/31/2013 07:22 AMPosted by Wayneold
3b) I would personally like to see at least 5% life steal

I agree this too, but i find more valuable Rend-Blood lust (SB pick up).

And like Phat says, i prefer "normal" weapons and more damage modifiers on the armor for a limited budget.
My 2 cent.
Edited by Gorak#2772 on 3/31/2013 11:08 AM PDT
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well that blows... i just wrote a 50 pg paper, double-spaced, 12 font, times new roman, and when i clicked submit nothing happened and it just erased everything i typed. being that it is easter i am going to be doing things with the family for the majority of the day. i will be back on later tonight to voice my opinion. just wanted to let everyone know so it doesnt seem like im bailing
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Posts: 6,837
03/31/2013 09:42 AMPosted by Nived
well that blows... i just wrote a 50 pg paper, double-spaced, 12 font, times new roman, and when i clicked submit nothing happened and it just erased everything i typed. being that it is easter i am going to be doing things with the family for the majority of the day. i will be back on later tonight to voice my opinion. just wanted to let everyone know so it doesnt seem like im bailing


Heh. Click back and you should have a saved copy of most of your work. Depends on the browser though. Google Chrome caches that kind of stuff. Firefox as well.

Edit: I'm dwelling on what I want to post. I will have something later in the afternoon or evening. I got some gear from a friend to prepare for this, so hopefully I can get my game back up to par.
Edited by acrimony#1561 on 3/31/2013 9:49 AM PDT
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Team 1H>2H

or i know...

Team Wivogony

Idk team names always sound the most interesting when you mash everyone's name together.
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Team Lancelot?
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Just a heads up guys before you start your gearing debates I wanted to clarify something. I posted this in the other thread regarding this contest.

OK just a clarification here. Are both teams going to be required to use 3 different builds? I was just speaking with Morpheus and as it stands Team Skorn is going to be required to use 3 variation builds. We can't all use the same build. While I was speaking with him I agreed to this but wanted to be clear if that's only being imposed on Team Skorn or does that apply to both teams?

This will make gearing a bit more complex as we will now have to make sure our gear set is flexible enough to accommodate 3 variations. And this needs to be discusses in earnest before any real major discussions regarding gear can even begin.


You guys may want to hold off on any big talks of gear or strategies until this has been address as it may change the whole thought process.
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I don't think there is much debate with any of Wayne's suggestions.

The mainhand EF with low fear proc is solid. I use it on my alt female barb for kicks. She hits 8-9x her paper DPS if going pure nado.

First decision needs to be is there room for Hota Hybrid or no? Hota will make gearing farm more expensive as Phat has pointed out.

The Rend/Revenge inclusion is interesting. If you are doing a hota inclusion, I would think Rend:Bloodlust would allow you to sacrifice one piece of LS an possibly go with only 3%? I could be wrong, but would be an interesting experiment nonetheless...only if including Hota of course.

I noticed both builds you suggested have no fury generator which is fine, but keep in mind it is not only experienced barbs that have to use this set and build. One community barb will also have to use the build so some training on how to start the fury engine/maintain fury would probably be in order. Superstition makes that a bit easier, but practice would still be required.

If you are going pure ww, EF mainhand with stat stick dagger is tough to beat. Only because you can find stat stick daggers under 15 mil that aren't bad.

EHP...touchy one for you wayne! ;) Personally would recommend a little bit higher EHP, once again for the community barb that will be playing with you guys. A solid base is 55K HP, 5500 Armor, 650 AR with decent sustain is the min I would probably recommend. The more the better obviously.

EDIT: Well if the different builds thing is required, cancel the thought about less lifesteal. 5.5-6% would be great.
Edited by Pri#1584 on 3/31/2013 10:25 AM PDT
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1) Don't know.
2) I actually tried the revenge build. For SB/Kulle it will rarely proc; Rak/Ghom it has a decent proc rate; SK/Mag its pretty good when they're both up. HOWEVER, those were determined when I wasn't using EF. I kind of doubt that it will proc that often as I found the adds were getting fear procced a lot once I switched to EF. I think either a fury generator or Rend - BL is the way to go
3)
A) This is where you really get to push the advantages of dualwield. 1.44-5 APS OS (but no ChD) EF and 11% IAS stat stick dagger (ideally with high %dmg bonus). With 35-6% IAS on gear (4 pieces) you hit the 2.5 breakpoint with MH and 3.3 with OH. By sticking with a fury generator you CAN optimize your tick rates depending on whether you want your WW to do more dmg (for Mag) or your SRLTW do do more (most other situations) resulting in a very large DPS boost. Furthermore, it allows you to really maintain high uptime of Bezerker's rage. Ideally the EF would have a 0.25 roll, OS and +Bonus to elites since ChD and OS is too expensive.

Otherwise the EF and sword combo at 34-36 IAS (depending on the +APS on EF) will work and will be much more easy to obtain a high DPS OH since of the lvl 62 crafted swords flooding the AH.

B&C) 3% on belt and 3% on OH should suffice. The reason why rend BL works very well is that it allows you to shoot back up after the SB pickup and provides a ton of sustain during the pickup which allows you to skimp on EHP. I found that if you have 0 sustain during the pickup getting around 1.5M EHP will allow you to survive 2 of the 3 Kulle spells, but if he fires off a rock fall, fireball and there's a tornado spinning under you you'll have to be north of 2M which is pretty impractical.

D) 24% MS ftw!

E)I think you should get 2 SoJ since gear swapping is allows. 1 ww soj for 5 of the bosses and 1 offclass cold soj for Maghda. Picking up a cheap 15/4 Str tyraels will probably help shave off some time for Ghom and SB once their respective partners are down.
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Posts: 6,837
Chazhang, you're beating me to the punch on the Tyrael's Might. It is an EXCELLENT alternative to the Immortal King's Eternal Reign. Given the gear limitations here, all we need is just the two set Immortal King's bonus and we can go from there.

Love the idea of the Tyrael's Might; especially since the pool of options is much deeper in Softcore (i.e., 3 sockets, higher demons % rolls, higher life %).
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You guys miss the post I made above? You may want to give it a read before you guys start discussing gear.
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03/31/2013 10:51 AMPosted by Death
You guys miss the post I made above? You may want to give it a read before you guys start discussing gear.


Oh, I tend to automatically tune out those in wheelchairs or holding Skorns.
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LOL Don't say I didn't warn you.
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03/31/2013 10:51 AMPosted by Death
You guys miss the post I made above? You may want to give it a read before you guys start discussing gear.


I saw the post and was wondering how the winner is determined. All 3 must survive the battles but the lowest clear time is used as the "team clear time" OR is it an average of all 3 clear times?

What are the 3 dual-wield builds? I guess they would have to be 3 of the following?

1) Cookie-CC WW
2) Sword and Board
3) Hota/Rend (2 hand)
4) Weapon Throw

The only 3 of these that can be done with the same gear set potentially would be ww, hota/rend, and weapon throw. If you are going traditional 300th spear wt then that complicates things.

What builds am I missing? Unless you guys are looking to move towards a more unorthodox build as the third option?
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Sure, I'll accept. This seems like a fun challenge and is much more interesting than endlessly farming KD2 for brimstones.

2) My personal build for ubers is the following:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/barbarian#aZRQkP!ZXY!bZYZcc

However it might not be ideal for this contest as you require -5 HotA for berserker rage to be viable, and uptime on berserker rage is only high against Ghom and Siegebreaker. Perhaps a more conventional hota/rend build would be more cost effective here, with bloodlust being used to save money on lifesteal weapons.

I'll let WayneOld discuss the non-fury generator WW builds, as they are his specialty. We should also do a trial with punish-WW as many players are more comfortable with that type of build.

On Acrimony's side I used to use his WW-throw build against ubers when I was undergeared. In particular, if you time hammer throws at siegebreaker as he's about to initiate his attacks, you could interrupt him which in turn greatly reduces the EHP requirements for this fight (if you play perfectly). However, they did change the mechanics of the pickup move in 1.0.7 (CM wizards can no longer permafreeze siegebreaker) so this trick might not be as effective anymore.

While we're talking about weapon throw, there's also the double hammer build. If you time it right, you can interrupt a hota animation with a weapon throw to attack faster than normal. The last two builds can be useful for undergeared barbs by providing CC utility at the expense of DPS, but they're only worth considering if the challenge involves showcasing a variety of builds. Realistically we're looking at WW vs hota, the last few times I did WW for ubers my effective DPS against Maghda and Kulle was much lower than hota because they constantly run away, and Maghda in particular likes to hang out in the corners of the map. For Ghom/Rakanoth, WW has an easier time dealing damage to both at once but I don't think that fight will be a sticking point for the challenge. WW would save us a considerable amount of gold on the SOJ though.

3a) I think the +APS boost from an echoing fury is invaluable for a dual wield setup. Mainhanding it should be cheaper, you could then either pair with a fast offhand for extremely high tDPS or a high DPS spear for hota.

3b) I think lifesteal on the belt is likely, as IK belts are dirt cheap while providing decent stats while witching hours with decent stats are rather expensive. Bloodthirst as a passive might be a good choice as this would allow us to skip it on the weapons in favour of more damage there. This depends on whether we have any other plans for the 3rd passive, and which build we're going for as it's easy to get LS on a WW offhand.

3c) Every so often, I encounter an unavoidable pickup + rocks + tornadoes combination that does a huge amount of damage. Personally I like gear to survive that because when doing an uber carry it is very embarassing to die. In the context of a speed-killing competition, it may be worth sacrificing our "worst-case scenario" defenses in order to go for faster peak times.

3d) If we can absorb the loss of vitality, Tyrael's is a good choice for the elite bonus. If we pair with a decent set of Lacunis, we can then get some non-MS Ice Climbers.
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Well, I guess it's time for me to contribute as a member of the dual-wield team. Assuming that Death is correct that we will be expected to provide three build sources, I will go into one of them for my own reasons.

Team Name: The Double Knockout

What build do you plan on using?

I think I am going to go with this: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/barbarian#chQRUP!ZYW!bZZYZc

Secondary: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/barbarian#fhcRUP!ZYf!aZbYZc

Tertiary: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/barbarian#ZhQRUP!ZYW!ZZZYZc

The Build:
I think if the defenses are up to par, going without a fury builder (i.e., Bash, Frenzy, Throw, etc) would allow me to aim towards maximisng the set's offensive capabilities; our goal is to take down all six Ubers in the fastest times possible. Rend in my melee attack allows me to avoid using any fury until I reach a minimum of 20 - I would be able to get Battle Rage up almost instantaneously (I would like to explore resource reduction cost of 5 to 10 for Rend though). I have never been comfortable using Whirlwind in my melee attack due to the auto-attack mechanic and the fact that I like to maximise my movement and hand dexterity with my left click button.

I have also been a long-time proponent of going without War Cry. Major credit goes to Lorenze for not only providing encouragement towards this mindset, but for showing me the potential for more skill diversity in the Barbarian's arsenal. And in context of this challenge, I think the set should have enough defenses to go without War Cry. Anything less and the risks are that both WayneOld and I might need more than one shot each to take down all six Ubers or take too long to defeat them.

The Active Skills:
As I pointed out in my theory crafting before Monster Power was implemented, Overpower's Killing Spree can raise our chances to hit for critical hits, which means more leech, more damage, more fury generation overall. It was not until Monster Power 10 was completely busted down to 25% less damage that Killing Spree became a much more viable active skill to use. A lot of credit goes to WayneOld for taking advantage of the Monster Power nerf and helping popularise the skill.

Rend's Lacerate rune would provide me with enormous five second damage when I have been picked up by Seige, if Kulle runs away, if Magna can't stay out of the corners, etc. It's obvious that Rend will play an important secondary role for both the Skorn and the Dual-Wield teams. However, I suspect that the Skorn team will be using the Bloodlust rune to compensate for the lack of a leech generator.

Whirlwind requires no explanation. It's a multi-utility system designed to do massive area damage and leech simultaneously.

The Passive Skills:
Animosity would limit any fear of Wrath downtime, but it's simply there as a precaution until I have had a chance to test out the set. If the set is as good as I expect Nived to put together, then I would likely switch Animosity to either Unforgiving or Berserker's Rage. Unfortunately, I cannot predict the uptime of having maximum resource so I feel that until WayneOld, Zylag, and I have had a chance to test the passive, it might not be very viable. There's a specific mechanic with Berserker's Rage that has never been tested and I intend to find out it works.

What are some concerns you would like to see addressing in our gearing strategy?

As with any gearing strategy, the biggest worry is disagreement. We need to have all hands on deck. Unlike Skorn Barbarians who are basically carbon copies of one another, Dual Wielding Whirlwind Barbarians require subtlety, nuance, and very specific itemising. And to be honest, WayneOld and I disagree on many things -- the last thing I want to take to the battlefield is a schizophrenic Barbarian. He and I will need to hash out our disagreements, call the other a c*nt, and work towards a gearing strategy that absorbs tenets of both of our experiences.

Weapon Choices:
I think the key is to find as much damage we can stuff into the main-hand and then figure out the offhand's damage point later. To that end, I think we should be looking at a mace or an axe (not an Echoing Fury) stuffed with as much stats we can pour into it to make the best possible use of Rend. In case you haven't heard, there's a very specific Rend mechanic that works perfectly with Dual-Wielding Whirlwind Barbarians; you can find two explanations below:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7006898380 -- Rend damage calculator by Raiden
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7864676551 -- With thanks to Nubtro

Nubtro explains that when you cast Rend, the hand orientation switches back to the main-hand, and then next swing belongs to your off-hand. This means that the gear requires a faster offhand so that we're constantly utilising the highest tick-rate for every time we cast Sprint. So to summarise, Rend takes your main-hand's damage into account first, then switches back quickly to your offhand.

I would explain it more detail, but I want to talk to the other three guys about this mechanic before I go further into this build.

Sustain
Immaterial. We know we will need at least 5-6%; more if we're short on damage.

EHP (it burns me even to say it)
Suck it up, buttercup. If we're going to one-shot everything, we need to provide ourselves with as much defenses as possible. Skorn Barbarians will be doing the same. No sense in minimising the effects that good defenses can have on your build and aggressiveness.

Movement speed
24%. Non-negotiable. Anything less and you'll need to find someone else. Don't make me suffer the indignity of running at 12%.

Quality of each piece in terms of price:
Too early to discuss. My first thought about saving gold was to chase a Tyrael's Might with 12% life bonus rather than 3 sockets (150 vitality), but on the other hand, there is the question of what we're working towards. If we want to put together a five-set Immortal King's Barbarian, we need to talk about our build first.

Do you even lift?
I solo'd Ubers before Blizzard nerfed Monster Power, took on MP10 farming with ease, created the Rend + Weapon Throw + WW build, geared many Barbarians, had godly gear, and the owner of a top 10 Barbarians PVP Dummy Score that was hilariously still viable and dominant two months later when Brawling came out. I lift, bro.
Edited by acrimony#1561 on 3/31/2013 2:01 PM PDT
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