Diablo® III

Patch 1.08 & the concerns with changes to demonhunter

First off, i would like to thank Lylirra for forwarding the demonhunter eDPS issues to the CM, i would also like to thank blizzard for taking the time to think of new ways of helping us out at higher MPS. However i do have some additional suggestions. Maybe this thread could be forwarded as well...
Source:
http://www.diablofans.com/news/1685-ptr-patch-update-a-few-skill-updates


Demon Hunter
Rapid Fire Cost: 20 Hatred initially, and an additional 6 Hatred while channeling / Rapidly fire for 438% weapon damage as Physical.
Bombardment : Rapidly fire grenades that explode for 414% weapon damage as Fire to all enemies within a 8 yard radius.
Fire Support : While channeling Rapid Fire, launch 2 homing rockets every second. Each rocket deals 145% weapon damage as Physical to nearby targets.
Withering Fire : Reduces the initial Hatred cost to 10, and ignites your arrows, causing them to deal Fire damage.

There are a few issues with rapid fire that really makes this buff useless(unless you are one of the .01% DH that actually use single target hatred skills on higher MPS)
- projectile
- doesn't penetrate (40% chance if runed)
- caster is vulnerable while channeling (gloom is easy to combine, but it takes up a skill slot)
- no self-refresh mechanic (Mark - Mortal Enemy can be applied on a single target, but it takes up a skill slot)
Rapid Fire has it's uses even without the buffs (which are certainly nice to have, and perhaps even give sense to try Ballistics), but since it is a single target skill it won't fix the high-MP DH problem.[/u]
WATCH this MonkTR/WOL video and tell me how DH can be ANYWHERE near this efficient????
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=tGV28i8FboY&feature=endscreen
[/b]
We need something more. In 1.7 you all buffed monks a tremendous amount(WOL from 400 to 900%).
Please help DH more than this.

Here is a link to the top 5 hardcore DH in america,
http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/clusterz-1471/clusterz/31259789
http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/sorrid-1603/Elite/32238526
http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/slayerepoch-1713/GoodEyeSnypr/30764288
http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/revrac-1267/RevracHC/29772309
http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/luna-1619/Rapriel/23925280


as you can clearly see. they all only use ONE hatred spender because on hardcore, we can't survive w/o using 4 discipline defensive skills.(which is fine, if hatred spenders did higher weapon%)
Elemental Arrow
Spike Trap
those are the two most popular ones.
==================================================
Here is a list of what i think are appropriate fixes for 1.8
(just a rough idea, clearly the runes would need tweaking as well)

Elemental Arrow 10hatred
155 to 279%
Ball lighting (since it is slower +.02)
155 to 310%

Nether Tenacles 10hatred
155 to 279%
LS3% to LifeSteal 4%

Impale 25 hatred to 18 hatred
265 to 477%
run-chemical burn 220%over 2 seconds to additional 410% over 3 seconds

Strafe 12 hatred to 10 hatred
156 to 281%

Multishot 30hatred to 22 hatred
165 to 267%
rune-full broadside 215 to 410%

Trail of Cinders 8disc
300% over 3 seconds to 510% over 3 seconds(it used to be 1500weapon% then was nerfed)
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Archery passive
1 hand users 10cc
2 hand xbow 50%CD
Bow 15% increased damage to 25% increased damage
DUAL-WIELD USERS: 7CC, 5%IAS, 5% Bonus to Life this will help dual-wield users be viable, since everyone is forced to use dead mans legacy, since it offers 5% more ias than the 15%ias bonus from dual-wielding, and an extra 10CC. no to mention the 300/300dex/vit bonuses it could offer.
The portrait of demonhunter is shown dual wielding. It's just no usable at higher mps. due to lack of EHP/eDPS

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
==================================================================
Now look at patch 1.07. See how much monks got buffed? isn't it time we got some love?
Thank you kindly.

(pasted 1.7 monk changes below)
Active Skills
Cyclone Strike
Weapon damage increased from 100% to 313%
Dashing Strike
Weapon damage increased from 160% to 303%
Exploding Palm
Explosion damage increased from 30% to 50% of the target’s maximum health
Inner Sanctuary
Radius increased from 8 yards to 11 yards
Skill Rune – Forbidden Palace
Damage bonus increased from 10% to 15%
Skill Rune – Sanctified Ground
Now reduces enemy movement speed by 80% (up from 60%)
Lashing Tail Kick
Weapon damage increased from 235% to 470%
Mystic Ally
The amount of damage a Mystic Ally can take from a single hit is now capped
The cap scales with the player's level, and is further reduced by the player's Armor and Resistance
Skill Rune – Eternal Ally
Weapon Damage increased from 40% to 60%
The Eternal Ally now has a 100% chance to be reborn after 3 seconds (up from 50% and down from 5 seconds)
Skill Rune – Fire Ally
The cooldown of the Fire Ally’s special attack has been reduced from 8 seconds to 4 seconds
Skill Rune – Water Ally
The Water Ally’s special attack now reduces enemy movement speed by 60% (up from 30%)
The cooldown of the Water Ally’s special attack has been reduced from 8 seconds to 4 seconds
Sweeping Wind
Base weapon damage increased from 15% to 20% per stack
Skill Rune – Blade Storm
Weapon damage increased from 20% to 26% per stack
Skill Rune – Cyclone
Weapon damage increased from 20% to 26% per stack
Tempest Rush
Weapon Damage increased from 85% to 155%
Wave of Light
Weapon damage increased from 390% to 829%

Follow-up weapon damage (dealt to all enemies in a line) increased from 45% to 96%
Skill Rune - Explosive Light
Weapon damage increased from 430% to 914%

Skill Rune - Pillar of the Ancients
Now deals 595% weapon damage followed by an additional 595% weapon damage after 2 seconds (up from 280% weapon damage)
Edited by RUNFORIT#1236 on 4/13/2013 6:15 PM PDT
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sorry, but these changes are simply crazy and absolutely over the top..

you cant adjust damage on hatred spenders to situation that you decided to use 4 slots to feed the gloom. sorry, it wont happen. it is your decision to use 1 damage source - face consequences.

and you suggesting return of the most stupid skill damage (Trail Of Cinders) - so you can still use 4 discipline spenders AND deal crazy damage.. sorry, it wont happen. pre-nerf damage was an error and EVERYONE knew that it is too good.

doubling Impale damage? I ALREADY use impale:overpenetration as my primary and it is perfectly ok as it is. issue is that other runes are single target only and they suck, but doubling it AND reducing cost? sorry to be blunt, but what you wrote above is "I want 'I Win' button".

monk changes.. difference being these buffs in some cases are still not enough (however I'd nerf Empowered Wave rune of WOL - it is crazy now..)

TianZi video shows that Empowered Wave needs a nerf..
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04/13/2013 10:03 AMPosted by sidtherat
you cant adjust damage on hatred spenders to situation that you decided to use 4 slots to feed the gloom. sorry, it wont happen. it is your decision to use 1 damage source - face consequences.


derp

you know why dh's only use one spender? because with the exception of a few (cooldown based) skills like fan of knives, we can only use one attack at a time

and since none of our spender attacks are resource efficient in comparison to other classes, and since the only viable one is spike trap, it's senseless to put more hatred spenders on our skill bar as they simply compete for time and hatred. might as well fill it with stuff that provides utility.
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sorry, but these changes are simply crazy and absolutely over the top..

you cant adjust damage on hatred spenders to situation that you decided to use 4 slots to feed the gloom. sorry, it wont happen. it is your decision to use 1 damage source - face consequences.

and you suggesting return of the most stupid skill damage (Trail Of Cinders) - so you can still use 4 discipline spenders AND deal crazy damage.. sorry, it wont happen. pre-nerf damage was an error and EVERYONE knew that it is too good.

doubling Impale damage? I ALREADY use impale:overpenetration as my primary and it is perfectly ok as it is. issue is that other runes are single target only and they suck, but doubling it AND reducing cost? sorry to be blunt, but what you wrote above is "I want 'I Win' button".

monk changes.. difference being these buffs in some cases are still not enough (however I'd nerf Empowered Wave rune of WOL - it is crazy now..)

TianZi video shows that Empowered Wave needs a nerf..


Hi and thanks for your reply,
1.) the post above me shows why we can only use one hatred spender but i will quote it for reference.

you know why dh's only use one spender? because with the exception of a few (cooldown based) skills like fan of knives, we can only use one attack at a time

and since none of our spender attacks are resource efficient in comparison to other classes, and since the only viable one is spike trap, it's senseless to put more hatred spenders on our skill bar as they simply compete for time and hatred. might as well fill it with stuff that provides utility.


2.) trail of cinder used to be 3300%dmg, making it 1100 is not OP.
3.) I can appreciate that you use impale on your 50k dps DH.
It is good for lower MP levels, this is true, however single target hatred spenders(rapid fire,impale) are completely useless at higher mp levels.
4.) these changes are not crazy and over the top. monk got a 2.3xmultiplier to most of their spirit spenders. what is wrong with giving DH 1.7x buff?
5.) i can see by looking at your diablo progress profile on your demonhunter, you really do not have that much experience with the class, so how do you know what eDPS we have/don't have at mp8+?
http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/sidtherat-2330/Byzdzium/18673906

I am sorry but look at my main account's profile:
http://www.diabloprogress.com/player/michael-13785
I am certain i have much more experience with demonhunter than you do and understand the concepts at which we are lacking, which is eDPS and resource management.

Furthermore, it is obvious that you main a 138k dps barb and a 105k dps monk, maybe if you were to play your demonhunter some more on higher mp levels you could appreciate more of what i am suggesting.
http://www.diabloprogress.com/player/sidtherat-2330

Thanks for your reply, but it is really not relevant to our main issue which is achieving eDPS and you certainly are not adding suggestions, just bashing what i have suggested, or so it seems.
What ideas do you have that could add to this thread? Do you think demonhunters are OK as is?
Edited by RUNFORIT#1236 on 4/13/2013 5:04 PM PDT
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Honestly this would be nice, eDPS on demon hunters is lacking for sure, what would be a cool buff to demon hunters is if IAS affected skills like spike trap and bola shot. The higher your attack speed then the shorter the "fuse" on those two skill to go off.
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@Sidtherat
Hi and thank you for your response again,
1. If you have nothing to add to this thread, in a positive light, you are breaching the forum conduct for adding negativity to this thread. I checked your post history and you had some insight on demonhunters before, why not add them here instead of trashing?
2. I type in bold because i am the OP and that's just what OPs do.
3. you still have failed to come up with your solution to eDPS for demonhunters.
4. when i try to look at your diablo profile, this shows up "No heroes exist on this account." so i resorted to diablo progress, how about you update your diablo progress profile, it is done by a click of a button.
5. There is no need to be snarky and have an attitude, this a mature thread.
6. You have no real experience on higher MPs, at least from what i can see, on demonhunter. Or you would agree with the HUNDREDS of demonhunters who have over 20k elites kills on their demonhunters (some of them 80k) in the eDPS issue thread which is the #1 popular topic ATM.

7. Saying that my "thoughts" are overpowered is a very broad and non-conclusive/elaborate response, you chose ONE out the 10 skills i listed and began to trash my thoughts on it. Instead of trashing my thoughts, how about you add to them so we can get a real conversation going here.
8. your thread on spike traps/lighting rod here:http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/8517691765
Seemed to have been well-thought out. why not add some suggestions here?

in response to your comment here
there are some players that CAN think on their own and surprisingly they a) do not moan b) can manage in any MP without issues c) use several spenders and d) rarely build their character around 'easy mode' gloom

Show me the proof. Because as of right now, there are zero demonhunters that use more than 1 active spender (excluding turret since this is a cooldown spender) that can handle higher mps. Again,feel free to prove me wrong with evidence, not just hearsay.
Again, thanks for your reply...
Edited by RUNFORIT#1236 on 4/13/2013 5:04 PM PDT
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4. when i try to look at your diablo profile, this shows up "No heroes exist on this account." so i resorted to diablo progress, how about you update your diablo progress profile, it is done by a click of a button.


i cannot take seriously someone who cannot solve this mystery, sorry. but - to be constructive - my profile: http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/sidtherat-2330/hero/18673906 (please take note that my DH and my Wizz are self-found - except for SOJ that i couldnt resist buying for 150k)

btw2 - i agree that DH has an eDPS problem. but to solve it the changes made to the class have to be limited and reasonable. bringing back broken skills like ToC (that combined extreme utility with extreme damage without any drawbacks - sign of bad design) is not an option blizz will take. surely.
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way over the top man. sorry
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Hi guys.

I totally agree with OP.

Even if some of the suggestions would need some balancing, most of them look pretty cool. DH's eDPS problem is well known now and supported with evidence (just check out youtube and diablo forums).

Man, that would be cool to be able to use Nether tentacles efficiently (not with the bug that hit targets more than once, but with a dmg boost). But as for your suggestions, I don't care if Blizzard applies them or not:

I only want them to boost something so we can farm higher MPs as efficiently as monks and barbs. I cannot talk for WD and Wiz.

But yeah, I would drop the "bold" writing, as it's hard to read. The purpose of using bold is to highlight what is important. Not every word you write is important (and it can never be, so...). Thanks!

04/13/2013 01:00 PMPosted by sidtherat
btw2 - i agree that DH has an eDPS problem. but to solve it the changes made to the class have to be limited and reasonable. bringing back broken skills like ToC (that combined extreme utility with extreme damage without any drawbacks - sign of bad design) is not an option blizz will take. surely.


+ 1

But the difference between you and OP is that OP makes suggestions. At least he tries something, but I like the way you see the problem still.
Edited by bearr#2157 on 4/13/2013 1:07 PM PDT
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Any other ideas?
Edited by RUNFORIT#1236 on 4/13/2013 5:05 PM PDT
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Hi guys.

I totally agree with OP.

Even if some of the suggestions would need some balancing, most of them look pretty cool. DH's eDPS problem is well known now and supported with evidence (just check out youtube and diablo forums).

Man, that would be cool to be able to use Nether tentacles efficiently (not with the bug that hit targets more than once, but with a dmg boost). But as for your suggestions, I don't care if Blizzard applies them or not:

I only want them to boost something so we can farm higher MPs as efficiently as monks and barbs. I cannot talk for WD and Wiz.

But yeah, I would drop the "bold" writing, as it's hard to read. The purpose of using bold is to highlight what is important. Not every word you write is important (and it can never be, so...). Thanks!

btw2 - i agree that DH has an eDPS problem. but to solve it the changes made to the class have to be limited and reasonable. bringing back broken skills like ToC (that combined extreme utility with extreme damage without any drawbacks - sign of bad design) is not an option blizz will take. surely.


+ 1

But the difference between you and OP is that OP makes suggestions. At least he tries something, but I like the way you see the problem still.


Hi and thanks for your response,
I hope blizzard does more than just rapid fire this patch too =D
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Please link a picture of your character selevt screen to show time played on that character. If it is more than 400 hours. I might believe you.


our conversation ends here, i have no need to prove anything to you. and talking with someone who bases his response not on what i write but what gear i have is a waste of time for me. dont take it personally.

btw. i bought that SOJ - saw it for 150k and did not hesitate. so it makes my DH almost-self-found
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Anyways,
Does anyone have any constructive feedback? Any other ideas? What does everyone think about my Passive dual-wield suggestion?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Archery passive
1 hand users 10cc
2 hand xbow 50%CD
Bow 15% increased damage to 25% increased damage
DUAL-WIELD USERS: 7CC, 5%IAS, 5% Bonus to Life this will help dual-wield users be viable, since everyone is forced to use dead mans legacy, since it offers 5% more ias than the 15%ias bonus from dual-wielding, and an extra 10CC. no to mention the 300/300dex/vit bonuses it could offer.
The portrait of demonhunter is shown dual wielding. It's just no usable at higher mps. due to lack of EHP/eDPS
Edited by RUNFORIT#1236 on 4/13/2013 5:05 PM PDT
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The best I can contribute is this: evade skills like vault, shadow, and such should be improved/cost less resources, etc. while damage multipliers to shooting skills you can get off while pausing need a stupendous improvement.

Additionally, lots of DHs can stand in place at higher MP while face tanking elites. That is what a barb is supposed to do.

-WARNING, this won't be a popular opinion- Resists and survivability need to be nerfed in combination with the previously stated stupendous damage output.

Validation: The biggest complaint I perceive from all this is that a DH is forced to stand in place to kill bad guys effectively and this is not what a ranged type character is supposed to do. So... make it harder to stay alive at close range but improve damage to kill bad guys effectively running around avoiding stuff while getting off a shot or two.
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The best I can contribute is this: evade skills like vault, shadow, and such should be improved/cost less resources, etc. while damage multipliers to shooting skills you can get off while pausing need a stupendous improvement.

Additionally, lots of DHs can stand in place at higher MP while face tanking elites. That is what a barb is supposed to do.

-WARNING, this won't be a popular opinion- Resists and survivability need to be nerfed in combination with the previously stated stupendous damage output.

Validation: The biggest complaint I perceive from all this is that a DH is forced to stand in place to kill bad guys effectively and this is not what a ranged type character is supposed to do. So... make it harder to stay alive at close range but improve damage to kill bad guys effectively running around avoiding stuff while getting off a shot or two.


Great thoughts, so i sort-of agree that if we get higher damage output, a nerf should happen for resists and gloom. However, this will make it even hard for demonhunters who play hardcore.
There has to be a happy medium somewhere.

Maybe making perfectionist have 15% all resist, 15% life, 15%cooldown, 15% less discpline.
And making Gloom, 10% LS, 20% reduction.
Thoughts?
Signed,
http://www.diabloprogress.com/player/michael-13785
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Thoughts?Signed,http://www.diabloprogress.com/player/michael-13785


also sort of agree..... BUT. Folks can't say a ranged class should play ranged AND buff resists to make it even easier to face blast the bad guys.

I will contemplate though and add try to add some ideas once this beer gets done working its business on my brain skills.
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Doombringer? why was your comment deleted? you have good ideas.
Here is my favorite idea doombrringer had

~Steady Aim: As long as there are no enemies within 10 yards, all damage is increased by 20%. If an enemy comes within 10 yards of you, Steam Aim will persist for another second.


Keep em coming!
Edited by RUNFORIT#1236 on 4/13/2013 5:05 PM PDT
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[quote="85683690102"]
most DHs use one spender, becase they cant think on their own and this is 'the way' to play DH right now. there are some players that CAN think on their own and surprisingly they a) do not moan b) can manage in any MP without issues c) use several spenders and d) rarely build their character around 'easy mode' gloom

and while it sucks that DH skills almost all use 'attack slot' (unlike ie mantras that can be cast without interrupting normal attack) there are some skills with powerful DOT and there are also Sentries, RoV and Spike Traps. Spike traps are used but most builds i see is hungering/ball lightning/4 disc (low mp) or bola/echoing blast/4disc. and cries and heavy tears 'why our eDPS is so low'. answers: a) because blizz had not yet buffed SOME skills A BIT (not over the top as the suggestions in OP) and b) because players think that they should be more efficient than monks that have 4-5sources of damage at the same time while only having 1 (or at most 2). this is impossible.


No, no, and no. Do you also think that ww, hota, and cm are popular because people aren't creative? Or that it might possibly be because they're the most effective builds?

Do you even play high mp? Practically anything works in low mp, and that's when you can be most "creative." Lots of dh don't have problems with high mp - the problem is the fact that other classes are so much more efficient at it.

And while it's true that monks can use more spenders, they can also use them simultaneously, something I pointed out DH can't earlier (outside of again cd reliant spenders). This is on top of the huge % weapon damage buffs they received last patch.

I mean, why even bring up hungering/ball? It works fantastic in low mp, and the only things that compare in efficiency are multishot or strafe builds. You don't need more dps in mp - you want efficiency, and that comes with 4 disc.
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