Diablo® III

New Firebats are awesome!

GameObscura equip a 1.00 aps weapon, get rid of all APS bonuses and also get rid of the skills that affect mana regen and mana cost and only use one bat reduction gear slot. I´m not sure how exactly Blood Ritual works alongside Pierce the Veil. Ritual could very well be /1.15 and not -15%...

All it takes is 1 second of the video, just slow it down until you see the mana globe response - should be -33 mana without any other skills or gear and IMO -30 with a 12 mana reduction mask.

Anyway, I´ve compiled a Cloud of Bats breakpoints table:

CLOUD OF BATS
attacks per second - frame length per tick - tick per second (frequency) - channeling mana cost per sec - time until max damage
0.90000-0.90909 aps - 33 frames - 1.82 ticks - 60 mana - 5.12 sec (307 frames)
0.90910-0.93750 aps - 32 frames - 1.88 ticks - 62 mana - 4.97 sec (298 frames)
0.93751-0.96774 aps - 31 frames - 1.94 ticks - 64 mana - 4.82 sec (289 frames)
0.96775-1.00000 aps - 30 frames - 2.00 ticks - 66 mana - 4.67 sec (280 frames)
1.00001-1.03448 aps - 29 frames - 2.07 ticks - 69 mana - 4.52 sec (271 frames)
1.03449-1.07142 aps - 28 frames - 2.14 ticks - 71 mana - 4.37 sec (262 frames)
1.07143-1.11111 aps - 27 frames - 2.22 ticks - 74 mana - 4.22 sec (253 frames)
1.11112-1.15384 aps - 26 frames - 2.31 ticks - 77 mana - 4.07 sec (244 frames)
1.15385-1.20000 aps - 25 frames - 2.40 ticks - 80 mana - 3.92 sec (235 frames)
1.20001-1.25000 aps - 24 frames - 2.50 ticks - 83 mana - 3.77 sec (226 frames)
1.25001-1.30434 aps - 23 frames - 2.61 ticks - 87 mana - 3.62 sec (217 frames)
1.30435-1.36363 aps - 22 frames - 2.73 ticks - 90 mana - 3.47 sec (208 frames)
1.36364-1.42857 aps - 21 frames - 2.86 ticks - 95 mana - 3.42 sec (199 frames)
1.42858-1.50000 aps - 20 frames - 3.00 ticks - 99 mana - 3.17 sec (190 frames)
1.50001-1.57894 aps - 19 frames - 3.16 ticks - 105 mana - 3.02 sec (181 frames)
1.57895-1.66666 aps - 18 frames - 3.33 ticks - 110 mana - 2.87 sec (172 frames)
1.66667-1.76470 aps - 17 frames - 3.53 ticks - 117 mana - 2.72 sec (163 frames)
1.76471-1.87500 aps - 16 frames - 3.75 ticks - 124 mana - 2.57 sec (154 frames)
1.87501-2.00000 aps - 15 frames - 4.00 ticks - 132 mana - 2.42 sec (145 frames)
2.00001-2.14285 aps - 14 frames - 4.29 ticks - 142 mana - 2.27 sec (136 frames)
2.14286-2.30769 aps - 13 frames - 4.62 ticks - 153 mana - 2.12 sec (127 frames)
2.30770-2.50000 aps - 12 frames - 5.00 ticks - 165 mana - 1.97 sec (118 frames)
2.50001-2.72727 aps - 11 frames - 5.45 ticks - 180 mana - 1.82 sec (109 frames)
2.72728-3.00000 aps - 10 frames - 6.00 ticks - 198 mana - 1.67 sec (100 frames)
3.00001-3.33333 aps - 9 frames - 6.67 ticks - 220 mana - 1.52 sec (91 frames)
3.33334-3.75000 aps - 8 frames - 7.50 ticks - 248 mana - 1.37 sec (82 frames)
3.75001-4.28571 aps - 7 frames - 8.57 ticks - 283 mana - 1.22 sec (73 frames)
Edited by Nubtro#2147 on 4/19/2013 7:43 AM PDT
Reply Quote
Using this so far, good results:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/witch-doctor#jUdhcQ!YTe!Yacacb

I think getting mana reduction on bats isn't needed, or pushing just to play with ptv. It requires full reduction gear, and a passive.
Main focus should be fighting cc. This is what hurts this build most. Counters to it are:
1. paranoia - charmed elites can't interrupt us in any way
2. spirit walk jaunt - 1s more duration, than popular rune with mana regen, which we don't need if we don't go ptv
3. spirit vessel directly affects jaunt, + we get cheat death ability
4. GI to cast everything more often

With this combo, I can clear vota mp10 with cob significantly faster than with bears.. Pretty amazing.

Also, there is one "free" slot, which is aoe vs trash. I use pestilence, but it is kinda weak. Doesn't require lot of mana, as it isn't spammed, but damage could have been higher. Maybe focusing on locust damage (soj + helm) would be a good idea, another benifit of not picking ptv, since then we don't need mana reduction to bats, and can use that skill bonus from items on something else.
Reply Quote
the bats are fine as is i think, they just need to buff the other untouched runes

and somehow increase teh range of that skill so that we dont have to be at melee range because that is really ridiculous
Reply Quote
Using this so far, good results:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/witch-doctor#jUdhcQ!YTe!Yacacb
I think getting mana reduction on bats isn't needed, or pushing just to play with ptv. It requires full reduction gear, and a passive.

Yeah if you look at the table in my post above yours, it´s clear that Skorn users won´t have to worry much about the cost but WDs using 1 handed weapons will have to think about reduction and/or mana management skills.

That being said, I´d love to see a video of such a VotA run. Have you tested Grasp of the Dead or Manitou over Locust Swarm?
Reply Quote
Im aware Plague Bats will never beat CoB in melee combat for sheer damage, and it's better if your surrounded.

However with the range on PB and the potential to hit more targets, travel through walls, and continue channeling without constant repositioning due to enemy movement I would think it has potential to win out over CoB in several farming situations.
Reply Quote
Manitou is out of the question, as it is single target. Too insignificant damage during the run, if it just hits some single monsters.
Grasp would have been great, but you need some kind of aoe. Locust has nice side effects, as it makes many monsters to attack you, and follow you, they get agressive and walk into cloud of bats. You can gather gigantic crowd of enemies and then just burn them with one channel of cloud of bats.
Ideally I would want some aoe skill to kill trash, without need to use cob againt trash. Locust has potential, but just dps is low, 360% over 8s, 45% weapon damage. Not the greatest, if it doesn't crit it barely does any damage to mp10 monsters.
Edited by aerial#2212 on 4/19/2013 8:03 AM PDT
Reply Quote
GameObscura equip a 1.00 aps weapon, get rid of all APS bonuses and also get rid of the skills that affect mana regen and mana cost and only use one bat reduction gear slot. I´m not sure how exactly Blood Ritual works alongside Pierce the Veil. Ritual could very well be /1.15 and not -15%...

All it takes is 1 second of the video, just slow it down until you see the mana globe response - should be -33 mana without any other skills or gear and IMO -30 with a 12 mana reduction mask.

Anyway, I´ve compiled a Cloud of Bats breakpoints table:


Herm, that's interesting. Tried it, and you're right. But if that be the case, then there isn't a lot of point to Bat Reduction items, at least not with CoB.
Reply Quote
Nubtro, there has to be something more than that.

I replicated the passives and gear from my timings, and I simply switched out my Firebat helmet for 12 Mana/second with no Firebat reduction. It did raise me from 1028 Mana to 1188, though, I might add.

Using the same test (identical gear and passives, minus the -10 Firebat reduction) I used for my earlier numbers, I spammed CoB to see how long the channel would last. It dropped from 235 seconds to 75 seconds. That's only about 32% of the time channeled on my other setup, yet I had more Mana available in my battery.

Your test on the visual Mana loss numbers when channeling is correct, but there's obviously more than viewable when it comes to the Firebat reduction numbers.
Reply Quote
Am I the only one who doesn't like the initial mana cost change?


Nobody likes the initial cost increase, but if it comes with the buff, so be it. We fit the build and playstyle accordingly.

To everyone in the discussion, I just came back from another round of testing in the PTR. Put on a -9 bats SoJ.
Cost per cast = 66-9 = 57
APS-1.17 ==> Required mana per sec = 66.69
Using BR ==> Required mana per sec = 56.69
My 3-pc Zuni gear gives 57 mana regen per sec.

On testing, my mana globe is full and fluctuating rapidly around there. So the SoJ mana reduction seems to be working properly. The spell is about 600% damage when fully stacked, we see bigger crit numbers because of the CHD component in our character sheet.

One bad thing about SoJ is the fewer crits, which leads to spiky health - keep hoping for the next cast to show a crit to refill the health. When I swap out the SoJ and wear a rare ring with 6% CHC, the near 50% CHC gives much more stable health sustain. As life goes down, one critical hit brings the life back up.

That's all for now.
Reply Quote
yeah i retract my previous statement. the initial mana cost is annoying especially if you are forced to move around. but it doesn't BREAK a fetish/summon build.
Reply Quote
mp10 vota vs cloud of bats @ ptr

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSe3wECWoWk

15s avg per elitepack
Reply Quote
Nubtro, there has to be something more than that.
I replicated the passives and gear from my timings, and I simply switched out my Firebat helmet for 12 Mana/second with no Firebat reduction. It did raise me from 1028 Mana to 1188, though, I might add.
Using the same test (identical gear and passives, minus the -10 Firebat reduction) I used for my earlier numbers, I spammed CoB to see how long the channel would last. It dropped from 235 seconds to 75 seconds. That's only about 32% of the time channeled on my other setup, yet I had more Mana available in my battery.
Your test on the visual Mana loss numbers when channeling is correct, but there's obviously more than viewable when it comes to the Firebat reduction numbers.

These tests were done on live version:

39 blood ritual + mask (-12)
41-42 blood ritual
46 mask (-12)
49 base cost per tick
53-54 blood ritual + pierce the veil + mask
56-57 blood ritual + pierce the veil
61 pierce the veil + mask
64 pierce the veil

I don´t have time to analyse these right now but it seems the resource reduction from gear is at the end of the cost formula. It´s also obvious that mana uses decimals as well, so more tests are needed to get correct values.

I´d say pierce the veil and blood ritual are in the same group so you get (1 + (30/100) - (15/100) = 1.15 modifier instead of *1.3 * 0.85. So the complete formula would be

cost per tick = (tooltip channeling / 2) * (1 + (pierce the veil/100) - (blood ritual/100)) - (sum of resource cost reduction/4)

GamerObscure does your test result correspond with the above formula?

@aerial: thanks for the vid, gonna watch now.
Reply Quote
so maybe still use Bears for trash but then CoB for elites?
Reply Quote
wow ROFL... .it's so insane now holy !@#$... i was having crits near 3m... just get a CM wiz friend and GG!!!!!!!!
Reply Quote
04/19/2013 09:49 AMPosted by danitefox
so maybe still use Bears for trash but then CoB for elites?

That is what I was doing, but you still need to use bears against at least 50% of the elites you fight. The affixes that screw up bats are arcane, frozen, nightmare, and knockback. If an elite has any of these bats will be drastically less effective, and will get even less effective when they are combined. There are certain enemy types who have knocback naturally as part of their melee attacks, and they are a real pain to fight with bats. Also, blazing guardians will destroy you if you try to use bats.

CoB has limited uses, but when it works it destroys things, I will give it that. Melee mobs that try to rush you get melted, and you never have mana issues if you can channel it. If you are playing with a cyclone monk and/or freeze wiz it works 10x better, since they can pull enemies in and freeze them. It really is best used in groups. I also see CoB becoming our go-to uber skill.

The main problem I have with bats is most elites I face have an affix that forces you to move a little bit, and at that point I'd rather have hex on my skill bar. The enemies that just try to rush me may get melted, but they were never a problem to begin with. It's the ranged guys who run away all the time that give us trouble, and CoB is terrible against those enemy types. So when you face enemies like shamans, occultists, succubi, blazing guardians, etc. you now have a useless skill on your bar.
Reply Quote
04/19/2013 10:02 AMPosted by danitefox
wow ROFL... .it's so insane now holy !@#$... i was having crits near 3m... just get a CM wiz friend and GG!!!!!!!!


Don't forget to invite a Monk to vortex everything (skill is called cyclone strike) to the group and provide the +64% DPS party buffs.
Reply Quote
Posts: 1,686
View profile
mp10 vota vs cloud of bats @ ptr

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSe3wECWoWk

15s avg per elitepack


great video aerial! I learned a lot from it. you're awesome!
Reply Quote
as the originator of the AC/WoS/CoB build, I approve of this thread and the changes! in honor of this great change I will be getting online tonight to play, feel free to add me!

anyone who thinks CoB isnt good is more than welcome to see how powerful it can be in the right hands! honestly though if you think CoB is bad its cause you arent using a baller LS skorn.

see ya'll online!

ps - evil alex gave me ALL his gear, so im sitting on a couple thousand dollars in gear if anyone is looking for elite 0s zd gear... and i mean elite.

lol i just realized im wearing all his gear!
Edited by SayGa#1564 on 4/19/2013 10:36 AM PDT
Reply Quote
Posts: 3,582
View profile
We are on first page lol.

Sayga defeinitely post some videos if you can. Show us how you make the best use of CoB
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]