Diablo® III

New Firebats are awesome!

04/19/2013 11:51 AMPosted by PaulNg
The numbers do not stack that easy if you want to use PtV (and Blood Ritual). I cannot state why specifically, but it doesn't work out that easily. If I use -20 Firebat reduction in gear with 101.25 Mana regen, I can channel for 235 seconds. If I keep all of the elements the same, but drop -10 Firebat Reduction in gear, I can channel for 75 seconds (and I had 160 extra Mana pool, no less).I mean, I'm not the greatest in the world in math, but that doesn't pan out mathematically. I'm trying to figure out why it does that.


*face palm*
Give me your parameters, I'll calculate out for you.
I just peeped at your profile, is that the configuration you're using?

Yes, but those numbers aren't correct. If they were, I could sustain it infinitely :P

1.51 APS, so 99.66 Mana per second before passives.
Depending on how you calculate the Blood Ritual and PtV, around 110 Mana per second before reductions.
Normalized for APS, I should have around 30 Mana in reductions.
So I should be able to sustain the channel at around 80 Mana per second.

My point is that I'm in PTR, and at 101.25 Mana regen, I cannot sustain it. Even if the deductions only give me around 6.66 second as Nubtro suspects, then once normalized for APS, I should still be cutting even, which I'm not.

It's not a math game, its physically not working that way. If it's a bug, then it's a bug. If it's intended, our math isn't right.
Edited by GamerObscura#1236 on 4/19/2013 12:07 PM PDT
Reply Quote
Seriously doubt it.

500% + 100% is more likely. Don't forget your attack speed and CHD when you see the crit numbers.
If your attack speed is 1.5, you need to divide your sheet DPS by 1.5 for "per cast" damage. That "per cast" damage may be further sub-divided to ticks being grouped up and shown on screen when you score a critical hit. It is from that grouped tick that you multiply the 600% damage, alongside your CHD.


You can easily see it in crit numbers. Crit values double when you channel it for a while vs first crits you see. Look at my videos posted in this thread. In vota run I start with 2m crit, and then it goes into 4mil. Gruesome feast doesn't matter because of snapshot mechanics.
Edited by aerial#2212 on 4/19/2013 12:03 PM PDT
Reply Quote
04/19/2013 11:55 AMPosted by MikeHoncho
I really don't understand using PtV. Just use CoL and sacrifice with provoke. It works way better. You can still use bbv with slam dance this way, and the result is way more dps with no mana penalty. Might be hard finding a spot for sacrifice though if you want to use bears and bats simultaneously.


Herm. I didn't think about this, and it's a great idea. Thanks. :)
Reply Quote
It's not a math game, its physically not working that way. If it's a bug, then it's a bug, then if it's intended, our math isn't right.


Your maths isn't right. Period.
I told you to give me your parameters if you want me to help you. Stop talking crap if you're sincere about your question.

Your dagger - 1.4 APS. You have probably 8%IAS on gear, that's how you got 1.512 APS.
Cost to channel bats = 66 mana/sec
Total mana reduction on gear = x
Cost required per cast = 66 - x
You use Blood Ritual and PTV, so Cost required per cast = 0.85 x 1.3 x (66-x) = y
For your attack speed at 1.51, Mana required per sec = y x 1.51 = z

Now look at your gear and simply add up the total Mana regen you have. I am guessing from your profile, 12 + 14 + 20. If that is true, your total mana regen is 46 + 45 = 91 / sec

Compare this 91 mana you generate every sec, with z mana you consume every sec.
How difficult can this be mathematically? When I have typed out row by row for you to input your values.

Edited: sorry typos
Edit: Mana regen is also shown on your character sheet (click Details and scroll down), it comes in whole numbers. Your gear is probably around 90+ for 2 pieces of mana regen plus Zuni 4-pc set bonus.
Edited by PaulNg#6869 on 4/19/2013 12:25 PM PDT
Reply Quote
Base 180 -> 385%CoB 234 -> 500%PB 270 -> 578%


@aerial, from the description of the bats skills, isn't it expected that the initial crit damages are half the stabilized crit damages?

I so give up on this thread. I'm out. Peace.
Reply Quote
@aerial, from the description of the bats skills, isn't it expected that the initial crit damages are half the stabilized crit damages?

I so give up on this thread. I'm out. Peace.


I don't undestand what you're saying.
You start attacking, you see certain crit numbers. When skill reaches full charge, crits are doubled. Skill dps increases twice, you deal damage to elite/boss 2x faster when it is charged. It looks pretty simple to me. If first crits were 500%, and then increased to 600%, you could not observe these results. Crits or dps, whatever you prefere, you can measure how hp of elites drops during first seconds, and how it increases in drop when fully charged (~twice).

edit: CoB desc says 500%, increase by 20% each second to 100%. There is nothing about value 234%.
Edited by aerial#2212 on 4/19/2013 12:22 PM PDT
Reply Quote
@aerial, from the description of the bats skills, isn't it expected that the initial crit damages are half the stabilized crit damages?

I so give up on this thread. I'm out. Peace.


First, you need to take a deep breath :)
Second, wtf are you talking about ? :D You are linking the ptr buffs to the initial damage...

As you like to say : for your benefit, I'll go row by row :
on live you deal 234% damage at the start, 468% after full channel
on ptr you deal 500% at the start, 1000% after full channel
Reply Quote
04/19/2013 12:13 PMPosted by PaulNg
It's not a math game, its physically not working that way. If it's a bug, then it's a bug, then if it's intended, our math isn't right.


Your maths isn't right. Period.
I told you to give me your parameters if you want me to help you. Stop talking crap if you're sincere about your question.

Your dagger - 1.4 APS. You have probably 8%IAS on gear, that's how you got 1.512 APS.
Cost to channel bats = 66 mana/sec
Total mana reduction on gear = x
Cost required per cast = 66 - x
You use Blood Ritual and PTV, so Cost required per cast = 0.85 x 1.3 x (66-x) = y
For your attack speed at 1.51, Mana required per sec = y x 1.51 = z

Now look at your gear and simply add up the total Mana regen you have. I am guessing from your profile, 12 + 14 + 20. If that is true, your total mana regen is 46 + 45 = 91 / sec

Compare this 81 mana you generate every sec, with z mana you consume every sec.
How difficult can this be mathematically? When I have typed out row by row for your to input your values.

Edited: sorry typos


This isn't the spec I used on PTR. :P I was running Blood Ritual, Spiritual Attunement, and PtV. I have 101.25 Mana regen listed on paper doll on the PTR.

Lets do it your way.

Your dagger - 1.4 APS. You have probably 8%IAS on gear, that's how you got 1.512 APS.
Cost to channel bats = 66 mana/sec
Total mana reduction on gear = 20
Cost required per cast = 66 - 20 = 46
You use Blood Ritual and PTV, so Cost required per cast = 0.85 x 1.3 x (46) = 50.83
For your attack speed at 1.51, Mana required per sec = y x 1.51 = 76.7533

Still doesn't come out right. Want to come into my PTR and watch me run out of Mana after 4 minutes? With 101.25 Mana regen?

I said I wasn't great at math, but I'm looking at my paper sheet. 1.51 APS. 101.25 Mana regen. PtV. Blood Ritual. Spiritual Attunement. If I channel Cloud of Bats, I run out of Mana after 4 minutes. I'm not figuring up these numbers in my head here.

Let me update my Bnet profile to what I was using during the tests.

Edit: Okay, my profile is now identical to what it was on PTR.
Edited by GamerObscura#1236 on 4/19/2013 12:28 PM PDT
Reply Quote
04/19/2013 11:55 AMPosted by MikeHoncho
I really don't understand using PtV. Just use CoL and sacrifice with provoke. It works way better. You can still use bbv with slam dance this way, and the result is way more dps with no mana penalty. Might be hard finding a spot for sacrifice though if you want to use bears and bats simultaneously.


@mike

imho MC+CoB already melts elites fast enough with a shorter cooldown to warrant BBV out of the skill bar. right now im running this:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/witch-doctor#fUcjdT!YcT!cZcYbc

what i try to do is spam bear till about half globe then cast CoB, wait for honored guest to reset/mana on globes then repeat. this way you get to be at max damage (well almost) all the time. i find languish more functional as it is with zerodog builds + garg to hold aggro.

uploading keep2 vid right now, should be up shortly.
Reply Quote
As you like to say : for your benefit, I'll go row by row :on live you deal 234% damage at the start, 468% after full channelon ptr you deal 500% at the start, 1000% after full channel


ok, cheers.
Reply Quote
http://i.imgur.com/AuEjQW9.png

:D

that was with just 3 stacks of GF

here 2 stacks + monk

http://i.imgur.com/DLWF8eX.png
Edited by aerial#2212 on 4/19/2013 1:21 PM PDT
Reply Quote
Would any of you use Direbats or Hungry?

The goal of this Firebat change is to make it do more damage than Bear in the long run as long as the situation is optimal (teaming, frozen by Wizard, etc).

Let's just say the situation is optimal, why would you stand far to shoot 220% when you can easily do 500% with Plague or Cloud?

Hit and run with Direbats is brutal on mana.

What's even worse is if things are under control, why would you use single target Hungry Bats that does even LESS damage than regular bats? Beats me...

I really hope they are going to look into these two runes.
Reply Quote
Juju just for S's & G's try dropping garg for sacrifice/provoke and BR for CoL and see how you do. Your dogs should still handle aggro (until they go boom at least). God I wish I wasn't at work right now. All this theorycrafting without being able to test is killing me.

I was using this last night: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/witch-doctor#fcUdQj!YcT!ccZcbY

Tonight I will try: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/witch-doctor#cVUdQj!YZT!ccZcbY

Will also try: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/witch-doctor#fcUdVj!YZT!ccZccY
Reply Quote
^ ya ty, will def try that too, it's what i regularly run with 1h mojo at lower mp. BR becomes my crutch at mp10 and coop even @1.26aps but at least now i got to drop SA. btw i love my garg, he keeps me company when nights are cold and lonely o.O

edit:

ayt a short 6min goblin fumbling k2mp10 vid, nothing fancy, just a general feel of the build. now when i look at it, garg was down half the time lol

http://youtu.be/yaGMWGsfZoo
Edited by juju#6769 on 4/19/2013 1:20 PM PDT
Reply Quote
Damn.. my WoS build suddenly can't clear faster than Plague Bats.. ugh.
Reply Quote
Damn I gonna try Firebat build again....
I just found out that the soj got flip-up sky high in price now..gee... I still have that 6/25/10 firebat soj I paid 1mil for Sayga's firebat build. Glad that I didn't sell it.

@sayga
WOW... what happened to evil alex? obviously it was robbery and you got all his gear. What did u do to him? omg...

04/19/2013 01:41 PMPosted by Jibikao
Damn.. my WoS build suddenly can't clear faster than Plague Bats.. ugh.
Reply Quote
Yes, I have an almost exact same setup for both Firebats (SOJ and Mara which is a bit worse than SB one) and SB setup.

WoS + Acid Cloud is not as fast as Plague.

Plague is REALLY amazing now. You can just use it as a main attack. Yes, range is not as good as WoS but it also goes through a lot of things and it's a wide AoE and damage is amazing and you can also channel it forever with enough +mana.

In fact, Plague may have higher ST damage than WoS if you don't have any +skill items. It's a sad day for WoS or spirit skills in general. lol Plague goes up to 500% while WoS is 425%.. WoS' problem is when there are too many breakables around.

I am not a Bear user and I am glad I bought good Firebats stuff... to me, Plague can easily replace Bear for my style. I can't afford any good +zombie items so Plague will fit in just fine. IE: I hate using Bear against Wall affix!!!
Edited by Jibikao#1131 on 4/19/2013 3:06 PM PDT
Reply Quote
PTR 1.0.8.16256

Where to begin:

1. the post where I calced and confirmed that Cloud of Bats does 500% weapon damage per tick when maxed out. In the post above me juju provided the data that my calculation is based on.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/8568960808?page=3#47

I dislike the fact that people talk about 1000% weapon damage per second, because that only applies to 1.00 aps. The skill doesn´t apply damage once per second. It applies (half) the tooltip damage twice per second at 1.00 aps (each 30 frames) and the more aps you have, the faster it ticks.The scaling formula is

floor (30/aps)

2. Cluod of Bats breakpoints that I posted here

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/8568960808?page=4#61

The initial damage tick always happens on frame 10 after you click the skill. You´ll deal 250% weapon damage (not DPS displayed in your inventory) on the initial tick. All subsequent ticks scale depending on your aps and deal

#2: 250% * 1.2 = 300% weapon damage
#3: 250% * 1.3 = 325% weapon damage
#4: 250% * 1.4 = 350% weapon damage
#5: 250% * 1.5 = 375% weapon damage
#6: 250% * 1.6 = 400% weapon damage
#7: 250% * 1.7 = 425% weapon damage
#8: 250% * 1.8 = 450% weapon damage
#9: 250% * 1.9 = 475% weapon damage
#10: 250% * 2.0 = 500% weapon damage
#11: 500% weapon damage
#12: 500% weapon damage
etc. until you stop channeling

Note that if you really only care about a single and fast calculation related to your damage displayed in your inventory, just multiply that value by 10 and you get a rough DPS (albeit inaccurate) with maximum Cloud of Bats.

CLOUD OF BATS
attacks per second - frame length per tick - ticks per second (frequency) - channeling mana cost per sec - time until max damage
0.90000-0.90909 aps - 33 frames - 1.82 ticks - 60 mana - 5.12 sec (307 frames)
0.90910-0.93750 aps - 32 frames - 1.88 ticks - 62 mana - 4.97 sec (298 frames)
0.93751-0.96774 aps - 31 frames - 1.94 ticks - 64 mana - 4.82 sec (289 frames)
0.96775-1.00000 aps - 30 frames - 2.00 ticks - 66 mana - 4.67 sec (280 frames)
1.00001-1.03448 aps - 29 frames - 2.07 ticks - 69 mana - 4.52 sec (271 frames)
1.03449-1.07142 aps - 28 frames - 2.14 ticks - 71 mana - 4.37 sec (262 frames)
1.07143-1.11111 aps - 27 frames - 2.22 ticks - 74 mana - 4.22 sec (253 frames)
1.11112-1.15384 aps - 26 frames - 2.31 ticks - 77 mana - 4.07 sec (244 frames)
1.15385-1.20000 aps - 25 frames - 2.40 ticks - 80 mana - 3.92 sec (235 frames)
1.20001-1.25000 aps - 24 frames - 2.50 ticks - 83 mana - 3.77 sec (226 frames)
1.25001-1.30434 aps - 23 frames - 2.61 ticks - 87 mana - 3.62 sec (217 frames)
1.30435-1.36363 aps - 22 frames - 2.73 ticks - 90 mana - 3.47 sec (208 frames)
1.36364-1.42857 aps - 21 frames - 2.86 ticks - 95 mana - 3.42 sec (199 frames)
1.42858-1.50000 aps - 20 frames - 3.00 ticks - 99 mana - 3.17 sec (190 frames)
1.50001-1.57894 aps - 19 frames - 3.16 ticks - 105 mana - 3.02 sec (181 frames)
1.57895-1.66666 aps - 18 frames - 3.33 ticks - 110 mana - 2.87 sec (172 frames)
1.66667-1.76470 aps - 17 frames - 3.53 ticks - 117 mana - 2.72 sec (163 frames)
1.76471-1.87500 aps - 16 frames - 3.75 ticks - 124 mana - 2.57 sec (154 frames)
1.87501-2.00000 aps - 15 frames - 4.00 ticks - 132 mana - 2.42 sec (145 frames)
2.00001-2.14285 aps - 14 frames - 4.29 ticks - 142 mana - 2.27 sec (136 frames)
2.14286-2.30769 aps - 13 frames - 4.62 ticks - 153 mana - 2.12 sec (127 frames)
2.30770-2.50000 aps - 12 frames - 5.00 ticks - 165 mana - 1.97 sec (118 frames)
2.50001-2.72727 aps - 11 frames - 5.45 ticks - 180 mana - 1.82 sec (109 frames)
2.72728-3.00000 aps - 10 frames - 6.00 ticks - 198 mana - 1.67 sec (100 frames)
3.00001-3.33333 aps - 9 frames - 6.67 ticks - 220 mana - 1.52 sec (91 frames)
3.33334-3.75000 aps - 8 frames - 7.50 ticks - 248 mana - 1.37 sec (82 frames)
3.75001-4.28571 aps - 7 frames - 8.57 ticks - 283 mana - 1.22 sec (73 frames)


3. Pierce the Veil, Blood Ritual and Firebats cost reduction gear. Posted my research from the live version of the game here
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/8568960808?page=4#73

tested on live
39 blood ritual + mask (-12)
41-42 blood ritual
46 mask (-12)
49 base cost per tick
53-54 blood ritual + pierce the veil + mask
56-57 blood ritual + pierce the veil
61 pierce the veil + mask
64 pierce the veil

From the above results, I derived the following mana cost formula:
cost per tick = (tooltip channeling / 2) * (1 + (pierce the veil/100) - (blood ritual/100)) - (sum of resource cost reduction/4)


-> GamerObscura confirmed that bats reduction works the same way on PTR (1/4 per tick).
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/8568960808?page=4#67

Note that I still don´t know if/how the reduction affects the initial mana cost. This needs to be tested. Please go and try just one piece of gear with reduction with no passives that affect the mana cost of skills and tell me by how much the gear slot actually reduced the initial tick.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now the tricky part. I´ll try to figure out how he was able to channel the skill for 235 seconds.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/8568960808?page=3#60

-> 1028 max mana
-> 101.25 mana regen
-> Pierce the Veil
-> Blood Ritual
-> Firebats cost reduction (-20)
-> 1.512 aps

First, mana cost per tick using the formula I posted earlier:

33 * 1.15 - 5 = 32.95 per tick

Second, his aps breakpoint is this one
1.50001-1.57894 aps - 19 frames - 3.16 ticks - 105 mana - 3.02 sec (181 frames)

He gets a damage tick and mana response each 19 frames after the initial tick at frame 10. This translates to 60/19 * 32.95 = 104.0526 mana cost per second of channeling the skill. His mana regen was supposedly 101.25 per second, which means he´d lose 104.0526 - 101.25 = 2.8026 mana per second while channeling.

Again, I don´t know how cost reduction affects the new base cost of the skill, I can assume 4 scenarios:
1) it applies the full cost reduction (-20 in this case) -> initial cost was 220 * 1.15 - 20 = 233
2) it applies half the cost reduction (-10) -> initial cost was 220% * 1.15 - 10 = 243
3) it applies 1/4 of the cost reduction (-5) -> initial cost was 220% * 1.15 - 5 = 248
4) the initial tick isn´t affected by cost reduction

1028 max mana
-> 795 after the initial tick in case 1
-> 785 in case 2
-> 780 in case 3
-> 775 in case 4

You lose 2.8026 mana per second, which means:
-> 283.67 seconds if case 1 is true
-> 280.10 seconds if case 2 is true
-> 278.31 seconds if case 3 is true
-> 276.53 seconds if case 4 is true

But don´t forget he needs 33 mana to get another tick so the time would be cut down by roughly 12 seconds (33/2.8) so he should´ve been able to channel it for roughly 264-271 seconds. He said 235 seconds, which isn´t that far off (lol). Maybe one of the values he posted wasn´t accurate or maybe there is something that works differently...or maybe it´s just that counting how many second you are able to channel until you hit 0 is not the best way to figure this one out.

With -20 reduction he was at -2.8 mana per second while channeling. With -10 reduction he would be at 111.95 - 101.25 = -10.7 mana per second while channeling. So the same scenario would give him a 3.82 times lower channeling time, which is roughly 69-74 seconds. This one almost exactly the number he actually got (75 seconds).

If it was me, I´d just do a simple test that would probably take 10 seconds (sadly, I can´t, as my PTR locks me out). Equip -20 reduction, Pierce the Veil and Blood Ritual, record the mana response of the initial tick and a couple of subsequent ticks and you know everything. Mana regen should be 1/10 of displayed regen each 6 frames but depending on whether he had a steady 60 fps framerate, the frames might´ve jumped around a bit here and there.

Would any of you use Direbats or Hungry?
Let's just say the situation is optimal, why would you stand far to shoot 220% when you can easily do 500% with Plague or Cloud?
Hit and run with Direbats is brutal on mana.
What's even worse is if things are under control, why would you use single target Hungry Bats that does even LESS damage than regular bats? Beats me...
I really hope they are going to look into these two runes.

Judging by the flat 2.13 something damage increase on base Firebats, Plague Bats and Cloud of Bats, the other three runes would have to also get the same boost before 1.0.8 comes out, otherwise it would be a really bad developing decision. Which means (predictions)

Dire Bats would be around 471% after the buff.
Vampire Bats would be at 385% weapon damage after the buff (like base).
Hungry Bats would deal 748% weapon damage after the buff.

Note that in case of Dire Bats, they would have to adjust the mana cost as this is the only rune that´s not really channeling anything, It´s currently just floor (60/aps) * 228% weapon damage per big bad traveling bat. I´d say they have to find some sort of balance. 66 would be too low for the damage output, if I compared Dire Bats to let´s say Zombie Bears, around 95-120 mana would be appropriate.

@juju: mind putting the info I just posted (until the line) into your opening post? As a reference to people asking about the mechanics or else I´d have to open a new thread eventually.
Edited by Nubtro#2147 on 4/29/2013 6:17 AM PDT
Reply Quote


@juju: mind putting the info I just posted (until the line) into your opening post? As a reference to people asking about the mechanics or else I´d have to open a new thread eventually.


done man, big thanks for all this. knew i was missing out on something imp. when i slept thru math101.
Reply Quote
nubtro: awesome!

It's funny to see how the whole WD forum got flooded by firebats threads..
"Old" dog seems so outdated suddenly...
Cool to have another good skill...WD rocks.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]