Diablo® III

Fix Thorns

Very true regarding the desire for dodge amongst monks. I won't go out of my way to let myself get hit unless thorns somehow becomes extremely OP. I do, however, like the idea of punishing enemies for even trying to attack me. I'm not sure if thorns benefit from LS, but if it does, a thorns/backlash build could potentially be a lot of fun for someone who has sufficient EHP & sustain.


Thorns does proc life steal, unfortunatly its the only thing it procs, i think it should also proc life on hit and stun, fear etc. and that it extends the range from pick up radius because being hit by archers at melee range and thorns isnt doing anything is no fun.

i would like to see thorns have a low crit chance% but when it does it should do x% damage based off crit damage.

thorns should not have a damage boost based on weapon damage or dps, because thorns is for defensive builds not offensive, so i think instead of damage boost from weapon damage it should get a boost from how much total damage being mitigated from armour and resist and dodge, also thorns is passive damage it deals damage when you are hit while you are attacking not for standing still and letting the monsters kill themselves no one wants to actively go out of their way to get hit by monsters thats just silly its not ment to be a main damage dealer.
it just needs a straight up buff to the numbers it can roll.

Treleth that thorns/backlash sounds interesting might give it a go sometime!

P.S sorry for any spelling errors, i did my best with words that didnt look right, thank you
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Tell me please:

— how mage may give 2/3 of him health back after Force Armor was protect him faster?

Currently its possible only with undocumented features like this weapon:

http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Layorn-2890/hero/26583629

— or how to defence from a top critical damage about 200k from monk in PvP ?

This is impossible: Force Armor will protect from damage max of 200% of health only.
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04/20/2013 01:12 AMPosted by gotaplanstan
When 66% of the classes do their damnedest not to get hit.

two thirds of 5?

2/3 * 5 = 3 1/3

I'm curious which class has one thirds of it trying not to get hit, while the other two thirds is...

¯\(º_o)/¯


this.

just made my day lol
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04/19/2013 04:56 PMPosted by Grimiku
Thorns damage in general is underpowered in the game and we're looking to correct that in the future. While we're discussing a number of ways to do this, the favored idea internally is to allow Thorns to benefit from your primary stat (Strength, Dexterity, or Intelligence).


I don't have a time frame that I can share, but you can read Wyatt Cheng's full response about Thorns [url="http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7895009644#4"]here[/url].


Well can you hurry up? Thorns been broken from launch.... so frustrating.
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04/19/2013 04:56 PMPosted by Grimiku
Thorns damage in general is underpowered in the game and we're looking to correct that in the future. While we're discussing a number of ways to do this, the favored idea internally is to allow Thorns to benefit from your primary stat (Strength, Dexterity, or Intelligence).


I don't have a time frame that I can share, but you can read Wyatt Cheng's full response about Thorns [url="http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7895009644#4"]here[/url].


You are too slow guys... Patches coming too slow and the changes not deep enough...
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I agree that thorns doesn't need to be weapon damage based which would just push it towards 2h. I think a better idea would be to give it a lot of synergy with shields so as to 1) improve thorns and 2) promote a 1h/shield:

A) When you block, you trigger thorns with a multiplier or increase it by a value based on your shield's block value.
B) Block% and block value could be a stat to roll on various slots such as gloves/belt/bracers.
C) New passives could support a defensive/thorns build such as a monk passive that allows you to trigger thorns when you dodge as if you had just blocked or a passive for barbarians that increases your thorns damage by a % of your armor.
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so true, make it a lot better or get rid of it completely. such a wasted stat on gear
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Dont you guys think THORNS, generally speaking is just a bad game design concept when you intend on introducing PvP eventually?

I'd rather it be one less thing that could roll on gear to be honest.
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04/19/2013 05:06 PMPosted by TopStock
you dont need thorns.. just play mp1 and wear firewalkers


Dammit! Why didn't I think of that....
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If you go near perfect thorns on everything you'll maybe hit 30k. Add in the barb rune to give you 50% more and you'll probably have close to 50k. Don't forget the sacrifices you take to get 50k thorns (only 1 specific class can get there mind you).

It would be far simpler to just have each piece of armor give you a % of your sheet damage. Extremities should give like 10% and chest legs maybe 15-20. So that with a little bit of selection you can have 50-75% of your sheet damage on hit.

You won't be hitting 300k dps with thorns wasting slots so you'd probably be looking at 200k tops. It's really not a big deal if monsters get hit with 100-150k every time they hit you. Of course reflect damage might have to be modified but otherwise should work just fine.

Imagine that .... you see a plague boss and you're thinking hell yea! I will pop my fetish army so he takes 9x 100k for every second the army stands in the poison. Suddenly thorns seems reasonable. Until then.... how about you prevent thorns items from dropping (reroll all thorns as different stat)?


according to http://www.diablohub.com/guides/diablo-3-item-stat-maximum-values/ its 21,116 with shield, but lets take the most common situational use of this affix(if anyone were to ever use it): 2h or dw. that gives us 18.752k dmg . We'll take upper end of a random characters primary stat, and define it as 3333. 625.00k dmg reflected/incoming hit.

I'm sure this seems like a lot to some of you, but now consider enemy attack speed is typically less than 1.5seconds/attack. and now consider that in the case of some really stupid AI enemies like ghom, that he spends half the battle circling a melee character instead of attacking, or that the most common reaction of most ranged enemies when neared by characters is to run away (in other words time spent not attacking). and THEN, in the case of monks/dh split that number in half due to dodge and for the others maybe 1/5th due to dodge.

this number is quickly diminishing. just get rid of the affix


As a Barb with 28416 Thorns damage, I can tell you that site is quite dated.

I believe I should be able to hit 30k base with a maxed out Topaz and a few more upgrades.

Also, I've soloed Inferno without attacking just for reference.
Edited by Icemaz#1543 on 4/21/2013 10:44 AM PDT
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Thorns damage in general is underpowered in the game and we're looking to correct that in the future. While we're discussing a number of ways to do this, the favored idea internally is to allow Thorns to benefit from your primary stat (Strength, Dexterity, or Intelligence).

I don't have a time frame that I can share, but you can read Wyatt Cheng's full response about Thorns here.


Grimiku:

I never understood Wyatt's post. Why would thorns be based off of any attributes? Shouldn't it either (a) reflect a ton of set damage, exponentially more as one goes up in Topaz quality -or- (b) it should reflect a certain % of the damage done by the monster? Also, being that this is the Topaz.. shouldn't it somehow give resistance or damage to lightning keeping in theme with the previous version of Diablo and the coloring of the Topaz? I think it might be too much but another idea is to combine thorns with lightning and give the player an effect similar to the monsters' lightning enchanted affix.. so that when players are struck while holding a topaz'ed weapon, they shoot out bolts of lightning randomly in all directions.. Any of these ideas would improve the topaz (for when in weapon) and make much more sense than having it based upon main stat.

Best Regards,

~Philoi.

PS: Also, wouldn't it make much much more sense if a topaz-based thorns came from a topaz inserted into a shield or other type of armor, preferably shield?
Edited by Philoi#1655 on 4/21/2013 4:19 PM PDT
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04/21/2013 04:17 PMPosted by Philoi
PS: Also, wouldn't it make much much more sense if a topaz-based thorns came from a topaz inserted into a shield or other type of armor, preferably shield?


Yes, I think it would, but I would take it one step further and suggest that all 4 colors of gems when inserted into shields/offhands should either behave the same as they do in weapons or have a different effect other than stat boosts.
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[quote]PS: Also, wouldn't it make much much more sense if a topaz-based thorns came from a topaz inserted into a shield or other type of armor, preferably shield?


Thorns is dealing damage, so it has to be put into weapons.

My 2 suggestions:

1. Thorns multiply with armor: Make a weird formula that increases exponentially with armor. 5000 armor -> 6000 armor doubles thorns damage, 6k -> 7k doubles damage, 7k -> 8k doubles damage, 8k -> 9k doubles damage...

+ makes strength desirable to those that want to be spiky.
+ alternative way of dealing damage

2. Turn it into dispersion: 2k thorns means you reduce the damage taken by this amount (pre-mitigation) and disperse it on every mob within your pickupradius...

+ tied to another affix
+ awesome feeling of "I'm dangerous dont touch me"
+ defensive alternative to the current systems
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Thorns is dealing damage, so it has to be put into weapons.


Thorns can already roll as a mod on shields/off hands so being able to gem it in a shield wouldn't be a stretch.
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04/19/2013 05:27 PMPosted by INJEKT


I don't have a time frame that I can share, but you can read Wyatt Cheng's full response about Thorns [url="http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7895009644#4"]here[/url].


No, the fix is just remove it completely from the game. Even if with 30x damage multiplier on it, thorns is still useless. With it gone we'd have a better chance of rolling decent items since its one less p.o.s affix that could ruin it.


If thorns were to work for ranged damage as well as scaling with strength as far as a damage buff. Then I would say it could be more attractive to have thorns on gear.
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04/21/2013 09:10 PMPosted by ShadowAegis
If thorns were to work for ranged damage as well as scaling with strength as far as a damage buff. Then I would say it could be more attractive to have thorns on gear.


This is very true, but wouldn't it be too good at that point. Plus, I think thorns should be exponentially increasing (by gem rank) flat damage -or- % of monster damage.

To respond to another person, why does it *have* to be on a weapon? It makes logically zero sense that this is the current way of doing it. I would support it if they changed this. It should be armor, shields or both (preferably shields in my opinion). Now *if* they change topaz thorns to act like suggested by the blue post or shadowaegis, then it would make sense to keep it on weapons but then I'd think it a little too strong.. Perhaps they could do both.. perhaps topaz should do some sort of lightning or thorns action on every weapon, shield or armor, but then do intelligence on belts, rings, amulets and mf on helms? I don't know.. I've never liked how they do this with gems. I think it should be reworked.

~Philoi.
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04/20/2013 08:42 AMPosted by Miguelitro
Look, just get rid of it.


Do not do this thing. Ever.
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Why can't they just make thorns reflect a % of the monster's damage back at them? The more thorns you have on your gear, the higher the % being reflected back. This is more natural than trying to attach it to the main stat, further confusing the player with extra maths.

Even if it feels overpowered, thorns is still limited because:
1. It only reflects physical damage. Correct me if I'm wrong but magic attacks are not reflected.
2. You have to be hit in order to benefit from thorns. This is the biggest limitation.
3. You have to stack a lot of survivability stats in order to survive and make the thorns build possible.

For someone like me who likes to play a tanky Witch Doctor with pets, there is just no synergy to further increase damage output. I spend a lot of stats into keeping myself and my pets alive, and there is just no room for the fancy dps stats like crit % and crit damage to increase my dps. So what I am left is a tanky build with relatively low dps compared to other players.

However, thorns would be the natural solution to my dps woes. The tank's natural playstyle is to survive being hit, and thorns reflecting damage due to being hit would be a nice dps synergy. Thorns is perfectly made for tanky builds, it is the best synergy dps for tanks instead of crit %/crit damage/attack speed.

So c'mon, just throw us barbarian and witch doctor tanks a bone and make thorns reflect a % of damage back at monsters. It doesn't matter if it is slightly OP, the limitations of thorns would balance it.
Edited by Peter#1403 on 6/15/2013 4:45 AM PDT
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