Diablo® III

WotB and Archon - Whack Attack

I don't see any benefit gained by nerfing WOTB or Archon (it's critical mass that's OP not archon) and I don't know why people want nerfs to barb/wiz, other than being jelly that their own class can't kill stuff efficiently in mp10 on a budget. This has been stated before, but I'll re-iterate: classes that can't do MP10 efficiently now will STILL not be able to do MP10 efficiently after these nerfs unless significant changes are made to the underlying mechanics of the other class's skills (given the patch history of the game, that's probably not happening, ever).

Hypothetically, if the patch came out tomorrow, where exactly would this game + community be? Hmm, lets see...

- DH/WD players still crying for buffs
- Only top-geared 1% of players (500k+ dps/ 1m EHP) being able to farm MP 10 (possibly struggling now thanks to nerfs)
- player base raging about the AH (again) because stuff is too expensive or there's dupes, etc..
- itemization so bad that risk/reward is not worth it
- Barbs/Wiz quitting b/c of bad design decisions.
- Overall dwindling player base due to blizz patches (significant nerfs, trivial buffs -- 1.0.8 Life Regen LMAO) being released at a glacial pace

What the devs should be doing is buffing other classes, not nerfing the ones that are currently fun to play. By buffing, I don't mean tweaking numbers, which seems to be the ONLY thing that they know how to do, but changing the mechanics to skills so that they have synergy and are actually fun to play...kinda like CM WIZ/Archon and WW Barb.

I mean, it's not that difficult to think of some good ideas, right? For example, couldn't you guys just buff WD skills + items so that Zero Dogs could become as viable as WW barb or CM WIZ? What about un-nerfing those DH skills (idk the names) so that people can use melee/tank DH build instead of some generic, boring kiting build?

Idk, you guys are the "Senior Devs" who I presume have had years of experience in the industry. Can't you guys make a change to this game that won't make players angry for once?
Edited by degamer106#1817 on 4/20/2013 9:42 AM PDT
Well i rarely post on the forum but seeing some guy that doesn't enjoy that type of game play its fine with me, but what about the rest that actually enjoy it, should we pay the same price and make the game less enjoyable because some dudes out there don't like the game play.
I think this game need more buffing not more nerfing, so the game can become more enjoyable for every one. Sorry for the bad english.
Every 25 Fury gained while Wrath of the Berserker is active adds 1 second to the duration of the effect.

change to 50 and see what happens
You think its stupid =\= is stupid

personal prefrence is personal

I do appreciate the argument about the personal preference and I get what you're saying. I still don't think the Run like the Wind gameplay is much of a gameplay.
Would you tell me what do you think the developers should chance, in order for the rest of the classes to get in line with Run like the Wind barb?

First, there was a change suggest a few pages back about reducing the dps increase of wotb, and offloading some of the abilities provided by it to other skills. i think that should happen. its not overly a bad idea.

second, i thinnk that some classes do NOT need a buff. for example wizards and monks. the wizard CMWW build is, imho, more OP than the barbarian build. Monks are also in a good place.

DHs need some serious love. i dont play a DH, so i dont know what that love is. but they need it, from what i've read around the internet.

i wont speak regarding WDs at ALL because what i know about them could be held in a thimble.

i also think Archon is completely fine as is.
Just because you and others enjoy this type of gameplay doesn't mean that It has to be in the game. Let me make you a theoretical example, an analogy:

I used to like to cheat when I was learning how to play DIablo2. I used all manner of cheats. I did that to learn all the skills and then I started to play in a fair manner.
But say I did enjoy that kind of gameplay. Following your logic Blizzard should allow me to oneshot every single monster on the map and the loot should fly and land automatically in my inventory, because I enjoy that kind of things.

Your example is pretty Ad Nauseum. were not talking about hacks. what WOTB and Archon do is clearly stated ON THE TOOLTIP. what RLTW does is clearly stated ON THE TOOLTIP. these are IN GAME abilities that synergize well.
I wish they would remove the cc from Wotb for a week and watch everyone cry because there still to fast.I only have a crappy Barb for solo when i don play him. Wd is main. on one hand its sorta there fault they guys here from start for getting Dh nerfed. but nerfing classes doesn't fix anything. cut of you nose to spite your face kinda thing. if they didnt like Wotb up all the time should have nerfed it months ago. you don't wait half a year and go oh ya think well nerf that.My god have they not learned anything from the Jay wilson fiasco. if they nerf Archon they screw up Wd more our coeffecients are tied to Wiz just like the 1st big cm nerf jacked up wd builds.NO Nerfs BUffs Instead. How about we vote on Smartest guys in our classes and send them to Blizz to fix the bloody skills that are broken.Hmm instead of talking about it at the office.

Here 1st tip free Blizz stop with the life regen buffs.kinda pointless not bad just silly.
go into your servers and do this.
Ls added to possibly roll on all class belts useable by all classes. boom guess what 99% wont all have a Wh.

2nd tip add 10% to our base speed but when wotb is up they dont go faster than they do now.So they get the base but not the top end.
Boom Buff and no Nerf. now were all faster and keep up with barbs easier.
see what i did i added a Buff without a Nerf try that guys.
04/20/2013 06:41 AMPosted by Noxifer
So yes as was stated above Wrath isn't the problem, Thrive on Chaos and the assist duration extending mechanic of Archon are the problems.

You are wrong on this, Travis.
You are right, that Wrath itself isn't the problem, but Thrive on Chaos is not the problem either.
It's the mechanics of Sprint: Run like the Wind.

Say we take WotB and give it to a regular Rend or a Hammer of the Ancients Barbarian. They don't get to keep the Wrath of the Berserker up perpetually, even with the "Thrive on Chaos" rune. Clearly the problem doesn't lie withing the Wrath skill itself or with Barbarians in general.

The problem lies withing the "Run like the Wind" rune for the Sprint skill. This is the skill, which in combination with crit chance and Into the Fray sustains Wrath of the Berserker perpetually. The reason for that, is because it produces many, many hits in per second and that combined with moderately high crit chance sustains the Wrath constantly.

This skill behaves very similarly to the old "Nether Tentacles" rune for the Elemental Arrow skill. However, the interesting thing is that when it came to the Nether Tentacles, they were labeled bugged and overpowered and got adjusted, while at the same time Run like the Wind was left to stay.

This is the skill which allows the Barbarian to be all over the place and to do damage on places, on which he isn't right now. No other spec allows to the Barbarian to unleash so much damage, while being so mobile and having perpetual Wrath of the Berserker.
Take away this single skill and see if you can sustain Wrath for long. See, if you can be all over the place. At this point the Barbarian becomes pretty much like every other class (perhaps even slightly weaker).


Check my post.

I've used perma WotB in MANY builds other than Sprint/WW build. Keeping WotB up is fairly easy across all mainstream Barb builds.
Well then if they nerf Wrath and Archon, Allot of people will never play again. And in a game were the devs are breaking under the demands of the people on the forum there will never be a game worth playing here.
Your twisting my words for your connivance basically i bet what i enjoy of the game right now a lot of people like it as well if your having fun on a game that what keep you playing it the moment you don't have fun any more you move on. My opinion is that removing thing that people enjoy in the game its a bad approach, example i always love barbarians since d2 loved ww speck back that time but i have much more fun playing my barb in d3 that i had in d2 because i love that kind of play stile its just suit me, i think this game should have more different approach in build so every one can pick up one they like to play without being much a different between build.
04/19/2013 04:10 PMPosted by Travis Day
I have a love hate relationship with Wrath and Archon for that matter. This is a topic that I felt I should at least comment on since it's come up on many occasions. There is no fundamental flaw with having a 2 minute cooldown ability that transforms your character and is really powerful, the problem is when it becomes a forgone conclusion that these AWESOME abilities are up 100% of the time and instead of being excited that they are up you are annoyed when they fall off. We have talked about what if anything we want to do with these abilities in the long term. I will say we have no short term plans to change them but we don't like that they aren't fulfilling their original purpose which is to provide a really awesome button that mixes up the tempo of combat for a small window of time.

Sometimes I wonder if it's forum trolls, or D3 devs themselves, who work the hardest to tank the game. There is so much more work to be done to improve the underutilized skills....by improving them....why waste time wringing your hands over one of the few set-ups that work well? Come back to polish these ones after you fix the rest of the game/skills.
Edited by adm0ni#1887 on 4/20/2013 10:41 AM PDT
04/20/2013 10:27 AMPosted by Noxifer
I've used perma WotB in MANY builds other than Sprint/WW build. Keeping WotB up is fairly easy across all mainstream Barb builds.

Show me a video.

Google it, man.

The fact that you don't believe it doesn't make it not so.

If you wanted to, you could literally keep WotB up with JUST Bash/Frenzy, ToC and Into the Fray. I do it all the time on Ubers without even touching Sprint.
04/20/2013 07:46 AMPosted by TehBuG
if that goes through i expect changes to Archon and CMWW wizzzys, and TR Monks and Zombie bear wds. Yeah. kill all the barbs workable builds and leave everyhting else. right.

archon is ok dmg-wise, the only thing they dont like is that it is possible to keep it 100% up, making 'normal' skills useless

cm/wizz is broken, should be fixed

TR monk nerf? so you want to nerf a mp1 speed-farm spec? ok with me. but it is used as a poors-man vault or sprint on anything higher than mp4

zombie bear? even top geared WD cant make it 100% uptime and price to gear to that level is 100 (i mean it - 100!) times higher than to gear barb for mp10

there is also zero dog build - check the price of ilvl50+ mojo with zombie dogs cooldown reduction and be back. for a so-so one - 300m. enough to gear 12 barbs for multiboxing..

when will people realize that game should be a challenge, fun, but challenging fun. currently playing barblo is a mindles low paying job. no challenge, no progress. it is like playing quake3 multiplayer with godmode mod.

and to those aces that cry 'no nerfs, buffs to others!!' i have one thing to say: you cant be more broken and overpowered than current barbarian class in d3. honestly, in entire history of my gaming (like 25years) i havent seen such abomination as d3 barbarian..
04/20/2013 10:27 AMPosted by Noxifer
I've used perma WotB in MANY builds other than Sprint/WW build. Keeping WotB up is fairly easy across all mainstream Barb builds.

Show me a video.


you'll see that WOTB does drop, but when it does its allready back off cooldown. i just diddnt pop it again because i was saving it to pop in KD2
Edited by TehBuG#1629 on 4/20/2013 10:55 AM PDT
Most barbs I know won't care if Thrive on Chaos is nerfed, because they have the gear to switch specs and still do extremely well. The majority of complaints seem to be coming from undergeared barbs who will no longer be able to do a higher MP than their gear would otherwise allow.
Just to reiterate on my post since no one seems to have noticed it, yet it answers all the problems with these skills and proves why Travis is mistaken...

WotB and Archon are both inherently flawed skills, just not for the reason that everyone is saying.

Wrath is flawed because the ONLY reason people use it is to keep it up 100% of the time due mostly to the CC immunity that comes with it and the fact that a 2 minute cooldown makes the skill useless as a 15 second duration skill.

Nerfing the skill and keeping the 2 minute cooldown would be an enormous mistake on Blizzard's part. If some players want 100% WotB uptime, it should be possible. The PROBLEM is that WotB is ONLY good if you can keep it up 100% of the time. Is the logic sinking in? More explanation?

2 minute CD = bad because skill is not NEAR good enough, nor is it capable of being good enough, EVER, so long as the 2 minute CD continues to exist. There is literally nothing the dev team could do to make it worth using for 15 seconds with a 2 minute CD(aside from giving the skill something absurd like +2000% MF for the duration). There will ALWAYS be MUCH better alternatives. WotB's CC resistance is only good because you can keep it up so often.

Archon is broken because the skill is almost its own character class. It's not that it's OP by any means, it's that spending all of your time in a skill that removes all of your non-buff abilities isn't good game design for a game like Diablo 3. Again, that's not to say that I think it should be impossible to do so. I'm just saying that the BASE skill shouldn't encourage that. If players want to spend all of their time using these skills then it should be a possibility, just not the ONLY sensible method. If players have good reasons to choose other playstyles then they aren't going to automatically gravitate towards permanent WotB and Archon. This is such an obvious solution that I literally cannot understand how Blizzard doesn't see it. Are they so far removed from the actual workings of the game? That is the problem with dev's I suppose; they make the game but they can't/don't play it to the extent it needs to be played to properly design it.

This thread is a perfect example. Almost none of these people understand the issue, yet they all have something to say on the matter. I think that it is likely that the devs are capable understanding the issue, yet they can't or don't play the game enough for it to be possible.

The only way to achieve harmony is to design the skills in such a way where they offer players actual benefits without having to remain active 100% of the time.

2 minute cooldowns and 15 second durations literally prohibit this possibility. Agree with me or disagree with me, Blizzard. The proof is right in your faces. Players don't use Archon unless they can keep it active for a long time. GOOD players don't use any other WotB rune aside from ToC.

Again I say, the problem with WotB and Archon is with the 2 minute CD's. No one with a shred of intelligence would use these skills if they couldn't be elongated to circumvent this CD. There's simply better alternatives (though the barb would be screwed without any form of consistent CC negation).
Edited by Gosu#1173 on 4/20/2013 11:10 AM PDT

Umm, I don't know what to say to you.
I checked the video and the Barbarian was using Run like the Wind. You must be blind to not see it...

that's ME. and yes i was running RLTW in that video. HOWEVER if you weren't wearing your "Selective vision glasses" you would ALSO see that 80% of the time im standing there spamming hammer, and my WOTB duration isn't going down. try taking those aforementioned glasses off and watch it again. you'll have to be blind to not see it,

do you like your crow stewed fried or roasted? cause in one form or another, you'll be eating it.
Edited by TehBuG#1629 on 4/20/2013 11:09 AM PDT
04/20/2013 11:04 AMPosted by Gosu
(though the barb would be screwed without any form of consistent CC negation).

le lol?

just like all 4 other classes that do not share the benefit of completely ignoring the only difficult part of this game?
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