Diablo® III

WotB and Archon - Whack Attack

Did is EVER occur to you Dear Developer that people rolled a barb JUST because of WOTB?
Or a Wiz JUST for the ARCHON mechanics? (NOT the CM, if it was the only build i would NEVER roll a wiz!)

So tell me pls, How do you think your posts make me feel...
And how do you expect the rest of the active community playing those classes and skills to take it?
If you want to change the very core of a class, then i would suggest to make a new class! Dont spoil the effort people put into building up for those mechanics (AND When i say effort i mean hundrends and hundrends of hours put in those exact mechanisms that you today called flawed and type some lines to change them!!!)
Blizzard talks about build diversity and making more viable build such as zero dogs and others based on specific gear but then say they will kill 2 of the most popular builds. Seriously what do wizard will do now crit mass received a huge nerf and is only good for higher mp Perma Archon is the way to go now what will Wizard do? It will also hurt a lot the barb class.
If blizz actually does this they prove completely stupid. Please Blizzard hire people with some academic degrees, things like this KILL MONEY. In a PvE game nobody cares about balance. There are so many flaws in the design, you could keep nerfing the next seven years. People don't want their class, they invested hours or even really money into, getting nerfed. However, you make people very happy and maybe even make some return to the game by making other skills as viable. Yea, buff that !@#$!

Buff ranged classes, buff other barb and wizzard skills etc. buff them so much, that Perma things are not special anymore. This is not Starcraft, it's a PvE game, you can buff things to heaven. But god, don't nerf. Me and lot's of people will quit, not only because of the nerf but because this procedure totally pointless and finally only punishes the ones who cared about the game.
None of those skills is comparable in any way whatsoever to the skills that I mentioned belonging to other classes. I am not favoring the Barb. The Barb isn't even my most played class.

Also, if you think molten and plague are the most dangerous things in this game then I don't know what to tell you...lol I more or less ignore both molten and plagued on all of my characters. Jailer into freeze into arcane beams of death/molten EXPLOSION/swarm of heavy hitters beating on you = farm more dangerous than pools of plauge/molten.


correct me if i'm wrong but once you are feared then there is no skill to break it? (maybe serenity, but cant check now)
there is no defence vs Vortex other than WotB?

vault only allows you to break jailor (like charge)
leap provides way to quickly run away from lazers, frozen orbs growing etc
ignore pain makes you practically invulnerable
and superstition nullifies lazers, molten, desacrator, plague and most of the projectiles

and surprisingly all these skills are on one class!

heavy hitters? people play mostly act3 - because it is both dense AND easy. noone seems to like act2 wasps and lacunis.. same with act4 - no matter how dense it is/or would be, people would rather play easy act3 than face act4 monsters that are significantly tougher than in other acts. and dont get me started on act4 warden and his curses and AOE attacks. it sure is easy with 'no healing, +dmg taken and slow'..

btw what you described is typical barbie gameplay - rush headlong into EVERYTING, spin-to-win and go on. i havent seen WD or DH playing that way. maybe monks, but even them are not doing it so ruthlessly..


Fear and vortex are not monumental concerns for melee classes in general so the point is moot. But yes, serenity breaks everything, including fear. It is far superior to anything the barb has for CC control outside of WotB.

You seem to be severely underestimating the power of vault and dashing strike. Neither skill has a cooldown. That fact alone makes them both infinitely superior to both charge and leap, even when used together. Smoke screen also completely nullifies everything just for reference.

Leap and charge are both fairly terrible skills when compared to their counterparts. Both have long cooldowns with no consistent or practical way to circumvent said cooldowns.

You again mentioned superstition and ignore pain except they have absolutely nothing to do with the point I'm trying to make. I never said that the barb didn't have ANY means of staying alive aside from WotB. Obviously every single class has tools at their disposal to prevent constant deaths. The debate is about the relative efficiency that is lost in the nerfs this discussion is based on. I'm not worried about dying, I have plenty of options to prevent myself from dying. The point is that choosing skills like ignore pain or superstition absolutely cripples your efficiency. Have you played a barb before?

Ignore pain on a well-geared barb would be so rarely used that it's practically a waste of a skill slot. The same goes for superstition, you are simply better off staying in lower MP levels and avoiding the issue entirely instead of choosing skills that allow you to play at a higher level yet, at the same time, cripple your efficiency, which makes the effort of playing at those higher levels pointless.

Those other skills I mentioned allow those classes to play at a level that is at least slightly above their gear level. Serenity is an incredibly powerful skill. Spirit walk is an incredibly powerful skill(and it's cooldown can be almost completely avoided so long as you possess the gear to take advantage of it). Vault is an INCREDIBLY powerful mobility tool, especially when paired with tactical advantage.

Comparing those skills to ignore pain, superstition, leap and charge is just silly at best. The levels of relative efficiency gained when considering the skill slots they take is miles above what the Barb would be capable of without WotB.

And still, I don't necessarily think that WotB is well designed in it's current state. Quite the opposite in fact, just not for the same reasons that everyone else in this thread is expressing. Go read my longer posts if you want to know why.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/8568988912?page=8#149

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/8568988912?page=16#307

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/8568988912?page=19#378
Thanks travis. If you nerf wotb, you'll just give me the final reason to stop playing this game. gl with your next job.
l really hate that the fix is always to nerf...how bout give some viable options to the other classes so they stop requesting to nerf classes they dont play or like..
Good stuff I like where the devs are going here, hopefully they reduce the cooldown of both to 45 sec or so. With that cooldown I think good gear barbs would roll mp 10 just as fast especially for elite packs which is what i think devs where going for.

Way to buff other classes: Give everyone CC immunity no one like that (CC can mess up all classes except barb if you're not paying attention and the rest of us are losing dps by not attacking during that time).
Edited by SWAV#1980 on 4/20/2013 4:17 PM PDT
On the one hand we have wyatt cheng telling us that its alright to "break the game", he even specifically talked about "infinite archon" in one of this blogs (http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/6317360/diablo-iii-developer-amaa-transcript-6-15-2012), but now travis day says "infinite archon" isnt working as intended and they "might" fix it. What? Do the devs even talk to each other? Heck do these guys really make games for a living?

I think the devs need to realise that this is a game and much of the fun comes from "breaking it", the best geared players SHOULD be able to faceroll MP10, it doesnt matter if they are playing archon or wotb. Right now there isnt a problem with archon because even the best geared players have trouble sustaining archon on MP10 (due to high monster health), as for wotb... well I dont know a lot about barbs so Im not going to comment on wotb.

Exactly, the level of hypocrisy that has been shown by these two comments is astounding...

I play video games to have fun wasting my time. If I'm not having fun I'm not going to play it.
On the one hand we have wyatt cheng telling us that its alright to "break the game", he even specifically talked about "infinite archon" in one of this blogs (http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/6317360/diablo-iii-developer-amaa-transcript-6-15-2012), but now travis day says "infinite archon" isnt working as intended and they "might" fix it. What? Do the devs even talk to each other? Heck do these guys really make games for a living?

I think the devs need to realise that this is a game and much of the fun comes from "breaking it", the best geared players SHOULD be able to faceroll MP10, it doesnt matter if they are playing archon or wotb. Right now there isnt a problem with archon because even the best geared players have trouble sustaining archon on MP10 (due to high monster health), as for wotb... well I dont know a lot about barbs so Im not going to comment on wotb.

Exactly, the level of hypocrisy that has been shown by these two comments is astounding...

I play video games to have fun wasting my time. If I'm not having fun I'm not going to play it.


There you go, no need to travel across posts:
"Wyatt Cheng:
There are lots of "breakpoints" (as I like to call them) in the game. I love games that exhibit breakpoints. Points where you're following one strategy, but as soon as you hit some magic breakpoint you can suddenly do something you couldn't do before. That point where your archon goes from 25 seconds to INFINITE. Yay! That point where your life per hit is completely mitigating all incoming damage. That point where you have enough crit to perma-CC all non-elite monsters with certain builds."

04/20/2013 03:22 PMPosted by WhoKnows
l really hate that the fix is always to nerf...how bout give some viable options to the other classes so they stop requesting to nerf classes they dont play or like..


Actually on this i have seen a post that they were saying they prefered the buff part to the nerf part, but their actions show the exact oposite. I dont even feel like spending time finding the post to prove the hypocresy in what they said.

04/20/2013 03:06 PMPosted by isbunk
Thanks travis. If you nerf wotb, you'll just give me the final reason to stop playing this game. gl with your next job.


sad but true :( if wotb is nerfed barb is dead , end of story, you cant nerf it, you cant touch it, if you do something else but buff it the class is dead...
Like if the nerf CM or Archon Wizards are a dead class too...

But what is far more annoying is the concept behind this.

Blizz: "Hey i see many use this skill, i will nerf it so that you use the other skills i designed" -> I really like to feel i am able to choose on my own, please dont make me play or do what you want, cause I play for MY fun.

Blizz: "But it is too good a skill, everyone HAS/MUST to use it now" -Humor me and make every skill a MUST use skill, every Rune a MUST use it rune, and then i will be the one choosing my build.

But again nerfing classes is something easy to do right? that why we see it so much in the patches
On the other hand making the "Identify all" demand of the community (from day 2 -all know why not day one- ) was that hard it took the company about a year to make reality is still not Live!
Edited by Phoenix#21114 on 4/20/2013 4:59 PM PDT
If they were to remove cool downs then it would be still the same problem only worse. Managing cool downs is part of the challenge of playing a game. You ask yourself do I burn my cool downs now or later. Do I only use one or all of them.
If blizz actually does this they prove completely stupid. Please Blizzard hire people with some academic degrees, things like this KILL MONEY. In a PvE game nobody cares about balance. There are so many flaws in the design, you could keep nerfing the next seven years. People don't want their class, they invested hours or even really money into, getting nerfed. However, you make people very happy and maybe even make some return to the game by making other skills as viable. Yea, buff that !@#$!

Buff ranged classes, buff other barb and wizzard skills etc. buff them so much, that Perma things are not special anymore. This is not Starcraft, it's a PvE game, you can buff things to heaven. But god, don't nerf. Me and lot's of people will quit, not only because of the nerf but because this procedure totally pointless and finally only punishes the ones who cared about the game.


And if blizz worries about best gear people have no challenges because of these builds .. just add MP11-20. Even good gear can't do MP efficient with archon.
So if cooldowns are meant to stay cooldowns, then what about Crit Mass builds or 0-dogs... were WD meant to spam dogs and sac over and over? Were wizards meant to reset all cooldowns as quickly as they can spam them? I doubt it was designed that way but that doesnt mean you should kill every build or synergy because they arent what you expected them to be. Very gray area...
I have a love hate relationship with Wrath and Archon for that matter. This is a topic that I felt I should at least comment on since it's come up on many occasions. There is no fundamental flaw with having a 2 minute cooldown ability that transforms your character and is really powerful, the problem is when it becomes a forgone conclusion that these AWESOME abilities are up 100% of the time and instead of being excited that they are up you are annoyed when they fall off. We have talked about what if anything we want to do with these abilities in the long term. I will say we have no short term plans to change them but we don't like that they aren't fulfilling their original purpose which is to provide a really awesome button that mixes up the tempo of combat for a small window of time.


As much as I think WotB is OP, that's just flat out wrong. There is a huge fundamental flaw with skills with long cooldowns like that in a game where you can only have six active skills. Even skills with 30 second cool downs are pretty janky in Diablo 3. Id love to use Rain of Vengeance or even Fan of Knives, which is only a 10 second cooldown, but I won't because those cooldowns make the abilities terrible when you have such a limited amount of skills that you can use. Now if you could use 8-10 or so active abilities like a sane ARPG allows you, that might be somewhat different.
Also why have a rune that extends the duration of the ability? Dont pretend you didnt intend for the 2-minute cooldown to possibly exceed its cooldown...
04/20/2013 04:55 PMPosted by Phoenix
-Humor me and make every skill a MUST use skill, every Rune a MUST use it rune, and then i will be the one choosing my build.


That pretty much sums up the thing Diablo 3 is lacking in most. Make every skill the "to die for" skill and we won't run into these problems. If a problem does arise, there won't be such an outcry at a potentially necessary nerf due to the fact that players have HUNDREDS of other skills to choose from.
04/20/2013 05:20 PMPosted by Toprem
I have a love hate relationship with Wrath and Archon for that matter. This is a topic that I felt I should at least comment on since it's come up on many occasions. There is no fundamental flaw with having a 2 minute cooldown ability that transforms your character and is really powerful, the problem is when it becomes a forgone conclusion that these AWESOME abilities are up 100% of the time and instead of being excited that they are up you are annoyed when they fall off. We have talked about what if anything we want to do with these abilities in the long term. I will say we have no short term plans to change them but we don't like that they aren't fulfilling their original purpose which is to provide a really awesome button that mixes up the tempo of combat for a small window of time.


As much as I think WotB is OP, that's just flat out wrong. There is a huge fundamental flaw with skills with long cooldowns like that in a game where you can only have six active skills. Even skills with 30 second cool downs are pretty janky in Diablo 3. Id love to use Rain of Vengeance or even Fan of Knives, which is only a 10 second cooldown, but I won't because those cooldowns make the abilities terrible when you have such a limited amount of skills that you can use. Now if you could use 8-10 or so active abilities like a sane ARPG allows you, that might be somewhat different.


OMG someone actually understands this.
Dear Travis, fellow gamers,

While I can understand Travis' point of view in saying that Wotb shouldn't be up 100% of the time, what needs to be remembered is that the only reason why Wotb is able to stay up 100% of the time is because Monster health and density allow Wotb (subject to having the proper build), to generate and spend fury continuously.

On lower monster powers, it is commonly known that Wotb does not stay up indefinitely for sufficiently geared characters which are able to one-shot mobs. In such situations, Wotb is perfectly fulfilling its role i.e. a short boost allowing you to overcome your foes in that moment.

On the highest monster power however, mobs have a lot more hp and the continuous generating and spending of fury is what allows for Wotb to keep up most of the time. Depending on the mob density encountered and your skill, Wotb may stay up for a long time, yes, but this is only due to the fact that Wotb perfectly fits into a set of given skills that work perfectly together. Going down the road of nerfing Wotb because of its constant uptime is in my opinion not appropriate since various classes use various builds that because of constant uptimes are fun to play and enjoyable. Examples include but are not limited to archon for sure, but let's not forget CM wizards (which may permanently freeze foes until they are no more), 0-dog buidl for witch doctors, hammer of the ancients build for barbs. While among the reasons why these builds are so popular one may argue that it is because they are overpowered, fact of the matter is that these builds are being played because they are fun.

Should Blizzard thus dare to go down the route of nerfing Wotb, I would expect the same not only for Archon but for ALL the other builds that profit from a "constant uptime" mechanism.

Finally, I'm sure Blizzard learned from its mistakes in the past and knows better than any of us in here that nerfing one of the most, if not the most popular skill in this game in order to render it essentially useless might damage the game and the people who day in day out have been playing with this spec and cannot think of switching into something else. I hope Blizzard will carefully assess this as even if no immediate nerf is in sight, the announcement of a nerf is all but good news for Barbarian players.

Please do not act recklessly.

Kind regards,

Dragoonz
04/20/2013 05:54 PMPosted by Gosu
OMG someone actually understands this.

I understand it. =(

Exactly, the level of hypocrisy that has been shown by these two comments is astounding...

I play video games to have fun wasting my time. If I'm not having fun I'm not going to play it.


There you go, no need to travel across posts:
"Wyatt Cheng:
There are lots of "breakpoints" (as I like to call them) in the game. I love games that exhibit breakpoints. Points where you're following one strategy, but as soon as you hit some magic breakpoint you can suddenly do something you couldn't do before. That point where your archon goes from 25 seconds to INFINITE. Yay! That point where your life per hit is completely mitigating all incoming damage. That point where you have enough crit to perma-CC all non-elite monsters with certain builds."

04/20/2013 03:22 PMPosted by WhoKnows
l really hate that the fix is always to nerf...how bout give some viable options to the other classes so they stop requesting to nerf classes they dont play or like..


Actually on this i have seen a post that they were saying they prefered the buff part to the nerf part, but their actions show the exact oposite. I dont even feel like spending time finding the post to prove the hypocresy in what they said.

04/20/2013 03:06 PMPosted by isbunk
Thanks travis. If you nerf wotb, you'll just give me the final reason to stop playing this game. gl with your next job.


sad but true :( if wotb is nerfed barb is dead , end of story, you cant nerf it, you cant touch it, if you do something else but buff it the class is dead...
Like if the nerf CM or Archon Wizards are a dead class too...

But what is far more annoying is the concept behind this.

Blizz: "Hey i see many use this skill, i will nerf it so that you use the other skills i designed" -> I really like to feel i am able to choose on my own, please dont make me play or do what you want, cause I play for MY fun.

Blizz: "But it is too good a skill, everyone HAS/MUST to use it now" -Humor me and make every skill a MUST use skill, every Rune a MUST use it rune, and then i will be the one choosing my build.

But again nerfing classes is something easy to do right? that why we see it so much in the patches
On the other hand making the "Identify all" demand of the community (from day 2 -all know why not day one- ) was that hard it took the company about a year to make reality is still not Live!


You said everything............
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