Diablo® III

WotB and Archon - Whack Attack

@danilomazzar

you are right that I am not max paragon and I am fully aware of the problems that Barbs have with monks. I apologize for not making it clear that I am not speaking on behalf of the monks. I am speaking in general.

@Xievious

I see thank you for pointing that out.

if that's the case then could they not just replace overpower with Rend and War Cry with Battle rage? they would cost 20 Fury each with no cd and if useing the marauder's rage rune, increase both their damage and Ls?
Edited by Storm1991#1626 on 4/20/2013 10:56 PM PDT
04/19/2013 04:26 PMPosted by Travis Day
I want to make this point clear. Wrath is an awesome ability, when the game first launched players used it the way it was designed to be used which was as a huge, temporary, power boost to kill a hard champ or fight a boss. The problem stems from the ability to keep it up 100% of the time. Any future change that we would consider making to either this or Archon would be focused on making these not a 100% uptime abilities. So yes as was stated above Wrath isn't the problem, Thrive on Chaos and the assist duration extending mechanic of Archon are the problems.


Please, no, don't think this way...this is wrong. The problem is not extending the time of these effects indefinitely. Why would you have allowed this in the first place had you not intended for it to occur? The real problem is that you didn't allow other options to look more appealing. "Stay awhile and listen" while I explain my reasoning...

I'll give you some examples for WotB:

Arreat's Wail should *also* have a chance to stun, charm or fear enemies (they're frightened and confused by the wail). While this skill is in affect, after the initial wail, monsters should still have a small chance to run in fear of the sight of the Barbarian. This might sound counter-intuitive to what a barbarian is, but this should be seen like how a wolf scares a flock to go one direction while separating weaker members from the flock.

Insanity should *also* drop the armor while raising the damage by far far more than just 100% (more like 200% or more), it should also cause the barbarian to lose control and attack random monsters within short range (or run very swiftly towards another pack of monsters if none are nearby, then attack). To be clear, we the players don't get to choose which monsters are attacked while in the berzerk rage of Insanity.. our barbarian just finds on his own a random nearby monster and hacks at it until it dies then rushes to another nearby monster and hack at it until it dies etc etc.. (once PvP is added we could even have this affect other players lol).

Slaughter should not cause explosions of blood on critical hit.. it should cause bleeding of the monsters attacked ( a LOT) on crit.. and it should cause a Massive Explosion of blood *when a monster dies from bleeding or a skill's strike from the Barbarian while under the affects of Slaughter* this explosion should be like corpse explosion and should have a radius of *at least* 15 + gold/globe pickup radius. The damage of the explosion should be a % of the monster's health and not the tiny amount of damage listed in the current rune/skill.

Striding Giant should make the Barbarian *Even Larger* than the other runes for WotB.. the Barbarian should literally look like a giant and walk/run faster as an effect. Dodge should not be increased, instead it should be decreased! Armor should be instead increased, damage increased (a little too), attack speed decreased and finally each step the Barbarian takes should cause mini earthquakes which do minor damage and have a chance to stun/knockback enemies. Every attack done while in this form should have 100% chance to knock back and have increased knock back distance.

Were changes like these implemented, people wouldn't be so automatically inclined to only use Thrive on Chaos, now would they? Some people still would, because of the appeal of it always being up given the right combination of skills and gearing.. but some people would prefer to do massive damage quickly or to frighten/charm monsters or to truly go berzerk and attack mindlessly or to cause corpses to gruesomely explode or finally to be a true behemoth that causes demons to tremble, freezing like a deer caught in the headlights..

Any (I'd prefer all) of these changes would make the skill a lot more fun..

Oh, please realize that nerfs are not always the answer.. sometimes making the skills more fun and more powerful is the answer..

*

Now, archon. that is a more difficult task.. but using similar thinking, one can improve that situation too without necessarily nerfing too much (or at all).

Please consider this.. if not exactly what I suggested, at least ideas along these lines of making our characters more awesome, not less.

Sincerely,

~Philoi.
Edited by Philoi#1655 on 4/20/2013 11:16 PM PDT
if you nerf wotb im gonna uninstall this game. It's going to be over for me, you'll have officially ruined diablo 3.
sad but true :( if wotb is nerfed barb is dead , end of story, you cant nerf it, you cant touch it, if you do something else but buff it the class is dead....


LOOOOOOL!!

this is exactly the same stuff i read when they nerfed STI for monks "nerf STI and we all die and a giant asteroid hit our homes"

sorry, maybe 'easy-mode' barbie is dead, barbarians will manage
I can't believe blizzard could concieve this is a good idea. What the hell are they smoking over there? It's simple buff other skills to make them viable, don't nerf the ones that are fun and work well already. This is so dumb I can't even believe this is real life. I put 400 hours in a game and they are going to ruin it. Great
04/20/2013 11:10 PMPosted by BurnsmanJR89
I can't believe blizzard could concieve this is a good idea. What the hell are they smoking over there? It's simple buff other skills to make them viable, don't nerf the ones that are fun and work well already. This is so dumb I can't even believe this is real life. I put 400 hours in a game and they are going to ruin it. Great


Ya bro, you should quit.
If you made these changes, people wouldn't be so automatically inclined to only use Thrive on Chaos, now would they? Some people still would, because of the appeal of it always being up given the right combination of skills and gearing.. .


they would anyway. the enormous plus of perma WOTB is the +speed bonus it provides and +CC immunity.

WOTB is mainly for these two, damage and other bonuses are just bonuses. nothing is better than constant perm CC immunity and +gazylion movement speed.. all that +100 or +200% dmg is just a gimmick in comparison

if you remove movement speed bonus from WOTB barbie would feel like other classes - slow and borring and suddenly it would drop from 85% usage to 15% usage
they would anyway. the enormous plus of perma WOTB is the +speed bonus it provides and +CC immunity.

WOTB is mainly for these two, damage and other bonuses are just bonuses. nothing is better than constant perm CC immunity and +gazylion movement speed.. all that +100 or +200% dmg is just a gimmick in comparison


The game isn't *just* about farming.. and burst damage or fun mechanics have worth too.. plus the speed etc of the base skill could be *slightly* nerfed without nerfing it into the ground.. did you even read my post? I'm not totally disagreeing with you, I just think you're overvaluing your precious CC immunity and speed.. these are effective but the game is also about power and fun too.. if you're playing a Barbarian just for effectiveness.. why are you playing Diablo 3, are you trying to bore yourself to death?

Just my opinion.. but seriously, I think that if they made the other runes much more fun or otherwise appealing, people would choose them..

Regards,

~Philoi.
04/20/2013 11:40 PMPosted by Philoi
Just my opinion.. but seriously, I think that if they made the other runes much more fun or otherwise appealing, people would choose them..


i'm afraid that they would not

for most of the vocal people around here d3 is some sort of income - they care ONLY about effectiveness. what else can explain doing CotA 50 times a day?

constant WOTB will always be better:

what is better 100% uptime wotb for +50% effectivenes or 20% uptime for 100% effectiveness? matter of style you say? I say: Monster Power level. if you can set yourself so that +50% is enough you do not need anything more.

there is no place for burst mechanics when you can tune down MP with one click and have that 'burst' efficiency without skilling for it. loot is terrible anyway :)

and CC immunity is HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE. this is basicaly what kills me on higher MP. jailer, vortex, frozen.. with WOTB you can completely ignore these and care only about incoming damage (That is completely mitigated with LS.. another broken mechanic) WOTB removes only hard part of this game for barbies. and vision of 'oh, so you can die in this game?' makes barbies very very worried..
Edited by sidtherat#2330 on 4/20/2013 11:54 PM PDT
04/20/2013 11:52 PMPosted by sidtherat
for most of the vocal people around here d3 is some sort of income - they care ONLY about effectiveness. what else can explain doing CotA 50 times a day?


I think you're overgeneralizing.. but even if you're correct, you're only talking about the sad state of affairs as they currently stand and not how things should be or will be in the future. I believe that people have seen the damage that the well-intended but ultimately bad idea of the AH has caused and people (if anyone continues playing Diablo 3) will use the AH less and less (or more and more intelligently and sparingly at least)...

I am against the AH only due to the damage it has caused to the game.. it's development and current maintenance/further development.. they cannot even fix certain bugs or mistakes they've made on items largely due to the AH.. that's just sad..

I am not against the aspect of it that people make a little money though, not in theory.. but if in practice people get too greedy and only care about the money or how effective a build/item is rather than how fun it is.. well that's just sad.. whether it is 100% true or not..

People may call them gimmicks.. but I believe adding some fun or depth or something to unused runes will encourage their use..

Also, there are ways to tweak thrive of chaos that would lessen its over-poweredness without the need to remove the control immunity.. which while over-powered, I believe is a key part of the skill and should not be removed.. a compromise might be to have the cc immunity only last the first X seconds of Wrath of the Berserker: Thrive on Chaos.. or perhaps it should only work once ever 10 seconds or something like that.. but be removed totally? Not until they fix affixes.. no.. people believe it was originally intended or not, I believe the CC immunity makes the skill good not broken and fits the theme of the skill.. what makes it over-powered (I think in a good way, others say in a bad way) is that it can last forever*... but again.. adjusting the fury demand to keep it going could control this..

There are ways to tweak or slight buff slight nerf rather than just break skills or nerf them into the ground..

Same goes for monsters.. at first, I thought certain monsters were just far too over-powered.. but I think they over-nerfed them as well..

There are more subtle and also more effective ways of making needed adjustments rather than just over-reacting and removing super effective and fun aspects of the game.. they already did that repeatedly to Wizard.. my favorite class and I almost quit the game as a result.. I know a lot of people actually did quit due to those poor decisions/over-reactions that the Diablo 3 team made back then..

Player characters in Diablo 3 should start out feeling competent (but very aware of their mortality).. as they progress, they should feel more and more and more powerful.. until eventually, they're one-on-one more powerful than anything else in the game with a few exceptions and even still competent against large groups.. We should feel like Epic heroes.

It's my opinion, but it is based upon knowledge of the series past and present and what it should theoretically be like.

Best Regards All,

~Philoi.
why are u telling us, that assists count for 1.08 ??? u should know what that means for a lot of wizard players... they buy archon equipment. some of that equipment is useless without the archon build. i myself did it too (gold ah ^^)

PLUS: the cm build is still stronger than archon... reduce the time it can be up and its useless...

only one solution: BUFF OTHER SKILLS, CLASSES
Edited by tobyha#2820 on 4/21/2013 12:41 AM PDT
i dont want to remove CC from WOTB at all. i would like that PERMANENT CC immunity is gone

i have 3 ideas that would bring back barbies to the level of other classes, and not one of these touch CC.

WOTB:TOC - requires 40 fury per each second added (with max of 10 extra seconds)

Sprint: Run Like the Wind: movement set at 90%. so you can spam tornadoes as you were but you no longer gain insane mobility while you are at it

attle Rage: Into the Fray - crits grant 5 instead of 15 fury. This will break or 'adjust' not only perma WotB but also HotA builds. Will not destroy them, but for one make them harder to setup. Mighty weapons will make sense again, other fury generating skills will be used etc etc.. nothing short of miracle when it comes to build diversity

and please - up the dmg in inferno! bring the pre-nerf inferno.. make this game difficult again! so increasing monster power level does not result only in longer fights as is now
i dont want to remove CC from WOTB at all. i would like that PERMANENT CC immunity is gone

i have 3 ideas that would bring back barbies to the level of other classes, and not one of these touch CC.

WOTB:TOC - requires 40 fury per each second added (with max of 10 extra seconds)

Sprint: Run Like the Wind: movement set at 90%. so you can spam tornadoes as you were but you no longer gain insane mobility while you are at it

attle Rage: Into the Fray - crits grant 5 instead of 15 fury. This will break or 'adjust' not only perma WotB but also HotA builds. Will not destroy them, but for one make them harder to setup. Mighty weapons will make sense again, other fury generating skills will be used etc etc.. nothing short of miracle when it comes to build diversity

and please - up the dmg in inferno! bring the pre-nerf inferno.. make this game difficult again! so increasing monster power level does not result only in longer fights as is now


I think your ideas go too far.. but they're far superior to simply removing CC from WotB or nerfing Thrive on Chaos into the ground.. well except for your idea that nerfs Thrive on Chaos into the ground.. :P Why the 10 second limit? Just add the fury requirement until it is highly difficult (but not totally impossible) to keep it up indefinitely..

I like the other ideas you had though.. too far but good ideas..

I don't know personally.. because I don't like Wind like the Wind and so don't use it.. but from what I hear from others.. it is just too strong.. I don't think it was intended to be as good as it ended up being.. but I don't think it should be nerfed as much as I think that one should just be totally redesigned..

Oh well.. I'm taking a break from posting, it is getting late.. thanks for the debates.. anyone who debated me..Lets keep thinking of ways to improve this game and hopefully avoid nerfs or anything that removes fun mechanics (when they should be creatively adding new fun stuff)..

Night all,

~Philoi.
I guess both my wiz and barb are dead now, anyone know a decent class i an roll?
04/21/2013 01:19 AMPosted by NorFear
I guess both my wiz and barb are dead now, anyone know a decent class i an roll?

None , all the other 3 classes are far inferior in both ofense defense and CC.
author sniveling whiner
04/19/2013 04:10 PMPosted by Travis Day
I have a love hate relationship with Wrath and Archon for that matter. This is a topic that I felt I should at least comment on since it's come up on many occasions. There is no fundamental flaw with having a 2 minute cooldown ability that transforms your character and is really powerful, the problem is when it becomes a forgone conclusion that these AWESOME abilities are up 100% of the time and instead of being excited that they are up you are annoyed when they fall off. We have talked about what if anything we want to do with these abilities in the long term. I will say we have no short term plans to change them but we don't like that they aren't fulfilling their original purpose which is to provide a really awesome button that mixes up the tempo of combat for a small window of time.


The problem with these abilities is by comparison the class just sucks with the typically build that support than when they are not active. With the barb, you end up as just a crappy, near useless barb for most builds (attack speed too low to be fun, crit chance too low etc).

With wizard, you end up having to deal with crappy class mechanics unless your archone support is a CM wiuz designed to just you back into archron as quickly as possible - and this is directly due to blizzard policy of continually nerfing the proc coefficients of other skills.

In early days - we had great proc coeficients on spectral blades, meteors etc, so out of archon mode yuou could have an effective metoer build that served to both deal damage and via cm, reduce your archon cool down, or perhaps have spectral blades. But now - one nerf after another after another and meteors is now completely useless without twisters etc to fuel it (ie a CM twister build core), or a WD running around after you spamming globes to fuel your AP.

Spectral blades deep cuts is still semi decent damage, but useless proc co-efficients for such a harzardous skills to use (wizards dot get the 30% DR that monks and barbs get to compensate for being melee).

So whats can we say? YOU nerfed us into these builds and corners - now you going to nerf even more to try to fix the mess?

How about actually playing the classes - how about actually thinking about what you do rather than these apparently ill thought out nerfs to class mechanics one after another.

Good class mechanics with decent synergies can be fun, however I agree WoTB-ToC needs a rethink. Not because its OP, but because its the only way for a barb to get any CC immunity at all (alternatives being sprint/leap/charge to get away from CC rather than be immune).

Also WoTB-ToC is something alot of barb find annoying to play with, though oif course they like the much faster and smoother play with higher damage that results. But you cant stop, you have to keep going at max pace all the time else the damn thing runs out and you have to wait for ages.

WoTB ToC in my mind would work much better if its mechanics was more like monk sweeping wind - ie it times out after a few seconds out of combat, but its on say only a 20-30 second cooldown with increased fury cost to activate, so it can serve as a in combat boost once you have gained enough fury. The CC immunity should be moved to leap and sprint, so any sprint active or when you leap you get the CC immunity (like WD spirit walk), but only for the first second after activation of sprint (in line with how DHs use lingering fog sometimes). This would preserve existing builds, make them MUCH more group friendly as barb dont have to keep running off to maintain WoTB, AND present barb with a choice around CC immunity - get it from sprint and say choose overpower instead of WoTB-ToC.

While on the subject of CC immunity - wizards need something, for example, all amors should grant CC immunity for the first second after activation.

Make the CC immunities grnated via such improved skills something you have to activate *before* you get CCd rather than something to get you out of a CC - that way there is an element of paying attension to whats going on around you required.
Sorry that you may ( it hasn't even been confirmed but the FOTM club is too dense and/or self absorbed to consider this) you have to go beyond wiping the drool from your chin as you stare at the computer screen like a goat. Blizzard already caters to the lowest common denominator for the most part. Why not just make an idiot mode for people who want to sit at their computer and ignore every impulse from their brain? "Buff everything because my limited intelligence cannot comprehend how this would ruin the game for the majority while satisfying my idiotic brethren and I who want to sit at the computer with our mouths agape and void of ourselves any sign of intelligence."
Buff all other classes, and dont touch wiz and barb...
This topic has reached its post limit. You may no longer post or reply to posts for this topic.

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]