Diablo® III

WotB and Archon - Whack Attack

04/19/2013 04:26 PMPosted by Travis Day
Whatever you do, I hope you don't penalize those of us that use it as intended, that is people that just use it for the occasional boost and not a permanent boost.


I want to make this point clear. Wrath is an awesome ability, when the game first launched players used it the way it was designed to be used which was as a huge, temporary, power boost to kill a hard champ or fight a boss. The problem stems from the ability to keep it up 100% of the time. Any future change that we would consider making to either this or Archon would be focused on making these not a 100% uptime abilities. So yes as was stated above Wrath isn't the problem, Thrive on Chaos and the assist duration extending mechanic of Archon are the problems.


Not that it matters , but you could redefine some skills as "Ultimate or Superior". This was something used in HoN to remove some of ambiguity relating to what works and what does not magic immune shields.

Critical mass could then reduce cooldowns of non-ultimate skills on crits.
You'll also have to reduce that 2 minutes cooldown to something like 90 seconds, but only let the cooldown start after the initial usage is completed.
04/19/2013 04:26 PMPosted by Travis Day
Whatever you do, I hope you don't penalize those of us that use it as intended, that is people that just use it for the occasional boost and not a permanent boost.


I want to make this point clear. Wrath is an awesome ability, when the game first launched players used it the way it was designed to be used which was as a huge, temporary, power boost to kill a hard champ or fight a boss. The problem stems from the ability to keep it up 100% of the time. Any future change that we would consider making to either this or Archon would be focused on making these not a 100% uptime abilities. So yes as was stated above Wrath isn't the problem, Thrive on Chaos and the assist duration extending mechanic of Archon are the problems.

When u guys will understand nerfing is not the solution, then nerf dh and wd also , with wotb barbar gets a good dps, so does dh with sharpshooter or else, and those are permanent passives... dh without buff can kill with spiketraps even before patch quite fast, watch the youtube videos!
How many barbar you think can stay up with ToC all the time? %1 %5? What about the rest?
With all expensive gear you want to punish %95 for %5 of the barbar players , just because other classes are whining about the barbar's skills are so overpowered? But is it? %95 of barbar players even cannot wotb properly and so there is always a window if there is not enough density anyway.
And whatabout shrines? They also shortens the duration of wotb, what about that? And im most certain in coop someone takes them anyway and there is nothing u can do about it...
If you want to diminish or remove barbar's only way boost the dps (and its still a window based skill even with ToC without enough cc) then diminish dh or other classes permanent dps boosts also....then u can get a balance..if u want to cut a main dps giver to barbar, isnt it you guys wanted to make happen, dps and gear/ah oriented game, so where is the dps? (for other classes also, just dont nerf but boost... and give game more challanges)
Edited by trislasis#1965 on 4/21/2013 2:57 AM PDT
04/19/2013 04:10 PMPosted by Travis Day
I have a love hate relationship with Wrath and Archon for that matter. This is a topic that I felt I should at least comment on since it's come up on many occasions. There is no fundamental flaw with having a 2 minute cooldown ability that transforms your character and is really powerful, the problem is when it becomes a forgone conclusion that these AWESOME abilities are up 100% of the time and instead of being excited that they are up you are annoyed when they fall off. We have talked about what if anything we want to do with these abilities in the long term. I will say we have no short term plans to change them but we don't like that they aren't fulfilling their original purpose which is to provide a really awesome button that mixes up the tempo of combat for a small window of time.


Just work first on way more important things like

PVP
LADDER
ITEMIZATION EXPAND ( not rework every few months , is this a SOFT RESET ?)
CLASS BUFFS ( DH are CRAP compared to other classes thats why i main BARB )
MP EVENTS
OFFLINE MODE for PC

And then lets talk about nerfing.

You already lost 12 million players out of 13 owners. Officialy. Something is wrong and community pointing out why ... Not only you are slow guys but you are not willing to really change Diablo 3 to communitys suggestions. And that is the main reason why Diablo 3 does so bad.
Constructive Feedback incoming.

Let me try to explain why ToC is 100% spot on as it is right now. Its simple, ToC is a play style. It is a mini-game within Diablo 3. It's so fun to see how long I can maintain my ToC buff, super engaging and I love transforming into this massive barbarian for a very long time. Insanity is the only other viable rune for WoTB and even then its extremely situational. The solution is NOT to change ToC at all, but to bring up the other runes.

Why is Insanity +100% and not +200%, +300% or +500% damage? What's the logic behind that choice? Its only up for 15 secs after all. Monks can crit 150+ mil with explosive palm explosions on the Hellring bosses so clearly you guys are ok with situationally Huge dps.

Why does Arreat's Wail Knock back? Its such a huge design flaw since you waste the WoTB duration because you just knocked everyone away from yourself when you are in the best position to dps them. Barbs already have abilities to get away from enemies, they do not need to waste a huge cooldown on a knock back. You could change Arreat's Wail to for example do a pulse EVERY SECOND around the barb that does damage and sucks enemies INTO THE BARB so you can make the best use of your 15 sec WoTB, I can just see a WW barb Pulsing this to suck all the enemies in into this whirlwind meat grinder, sooo fun and offers huge synergy with say CM wizards for party play. Sounds fun? Sure does!

Slaughter's AOE is Weak Sauce. Here is an Idea, when you Activate WoTB, ALL the damage you do puts a dot on the target for lets say 10% of the dmg done (NOT WEAPON DMG, damage done, so 1m crit puts a 100k dmg over 5 seconds dot on the target). The dot stacks and refreshes itself as you do dmg ( the dot only ends if you do not do dmg to the target for 5 seconds so Frozen or Immune Elites have an advantage here). IF the target dies WITH the dot still ON it, the dot puts a copy of it self onto 3 CLOSEST ENEMIES with a refreshed 5 second duration that STACKS with dot already on the target and refreshes it. IF only 1 target is present near the dead monster, the 3 copies will combine into one and apply itself to the last target in range, YES 3 times the dmg of the dot on the dead monster. The idea is that you pull a huge group with an elite, as you nuke, the trash mobs die quickly but the WoTB is not wasted on them as it causes the dot damage to exponentially accumulate and stack on healthier and healthier targets, so the longer you do dmg and stronger the Slaughter dot becomes until only the champion pack has the dot on it and by then the dot is hitting hard. So its an AOE that wipes the floor with trash while securing the kill on the champ pack since by the time all the trash die and dot would have multiplied so many times it would be ticking 1-5+ mil a second together with your actual dps. Slow build up but very constant, ever climbing DPS. Massive Fun every 15 out 120 seconds? SIGN ME UP!

Finally, the most useless rune of them all, Striding Giant. The attempt to hide a survival cooldown within a dps cooldown. Like Arreat's Wail, barbs already have separate survival cooldowns which are much much better and are not prone to RNG, if we want a survival cooldown, we will take it. Striding Giant needs needs to be removed, and a new rune put in. I have some Ideas.

#1. Dig Deep, Strike True.
When WoTB is active, you attacks penetrate 100% of the PHYSICAL and ANY MAGICAL Armour on enemies. You attacks never miss, they are never dodged and can't be blocked.

#2 Tripple Tap
When WoTB is Active you are able to channel Bul Kathos himself to aid you in battle. Every attack performed is then Echoed by Bul Kathos spirit' Left hand a second later and by the right hand a second after that, onto your enemies amplified by his own might, dealing 150% of dmg your attack with his left hand and 200% of your dmg with his Right hand.

(To Clarify, If your HotA hits for 1mil, it will then echo a second later for 1.5 mil and another second later for 2mil. This will obviously benefit from life steal so life gain will be quite consistent with Echoes happening all the time. This will give Barbs an alternative to Insanity which is quite a bland 100% dmg increase and is still prone to getting you killed because the extra life you get from lifesteal can sometime not come quick enough or you are 1 shotted between swings. Echo solves that problem. The visual would be something like the Horrify of the witch doctor but anchored to your shoulders and smaller. When attacking a ghostly left hand would repeat the attack, then a ghostly right hand would repeat it again.)

These are just some ideas I threw together in 5 mins, I am a design machine! Send me a message Blizz if you need any more design help because if you think changing ToC AT ALL is a good idea, you lot are delusional and clearly need help with design.
04/20/2013 08:36 PMPosted by Traz


Sorry but Wrath will not get protected because of the gear dependent 0 dog build or any other type of build that can either greatly reduce the cool downs or negate them entirely.


Nor will any of the builds he mentioned, we just seem to be first in line. Remember you wanted OP skill sets to be nerfed when your turn is up.


Blizz made the 0 dog build possible. They said it themselves in a recent itemization blog that they want to make more gear that will provide builds like the 0 dog build. So it is not a problem. Since it is not problem for them. Then you cannot use it as a shield to protect the Wrath and Archon that are primarily skill based.

0 dog build is at least 75 to 100% gear based. Depending on whether you choose to use Tribal Rites passive or not. Where as Archon has the mechanic built in it. And Wrath has Thrive on Chaos with other skills to fuel it. So Wrath and Archon are 75-100% skill based. The only thing they need the gear for is killing speed and run/walk speed.
As far as the other three runes in WotB they are situational. The players that would use them would be the ones that would build for fun themed builds. That is just like many of the runes in the other barbarian skills. They are there to provide tangible benefits other than straight up boost to dps or survivability.
The problem isn't actually the ability itself, the problem in the first place is the ability to get gear.

When you first start your barb, you can do the lower MP's of normal whirlwind without any WoTB, you don't have enough supporting stats for Thrive on Chaos to work.

However as of today gear has become so ridiculously cheap it's not even fun, basically as of today anyone can buy enough stats to start WWing with Perma-WoTB for a low gold amount, while the higher MP's require better gear.

This is not how it used to be. Not even close. People with the better gear could do Perma-WoTB eventually, while the ones who didn't had to play normal WW or something similiar.

So what you're saying is that you're possibly going to nerf the only ability making top MP's playable, BECAUSE of gear becoming cheaper?

That's a problem in the itemization, not in the skill. It's kind of obvious if you look back in the days of 1.03-1.05.

I mean you can even buy a Witching Hour today, that used to be 20-30m +, for a mere amount of 1,5m today. Immortal King's chest cheapest for 400k.

I think some of this also applies to Archon, cheaper gear, easier DPS gain, better Archon build.

Why people rise up to this is because do you see any other way of doing MP9-MP10 without Perma-WoTB? As effective as the end-geared SP Monk, or as a CM Wizard?

I don't, that's why I disagree to this.


There you go, no need to travel across posts:
"Wyatt Cheng:
There are lots of "breakpoints" (as I like to call them) in the game. I love games that exhibit breakpoints. Points where you're following one strategy, but as soon as you hit some magic breakpoint you can suddenly do something you couldn't do before. That point where your archon goes from 25 seconds to INFINITE. Yay! That point where your life per hit is completely mitigating all incoming damage. That point where you have enough crit to perma-CC all non-elite monsters with certain builds."



Actually on this i have seen a post that they were saying they prefered the buff part to the nerf part, but their actions show the exact oposite. I dont even feel like spending time finding the post to prove the hypocresy in what they said.

sad but true :( if wotb is nerfed barb is dead , end of story, you cant nerf it, you cant touch it, if you do something else but buff it the class is dead...
Like if the nerf CM or Archon Wizards are a dead class too...

But what is far more annoying is the concept behind this.

Blizz: "Hey i see many use this skill, i will nerf it so that you use the other skills i designed" -> I really like to feel i am able to choose on my own, please dont make me play or do what you want, cause I play for MY fun.

Blizz: "But it is too good a skill, everyone HAS/MUST to use it now" -Humor me and make every skill a MUST use skill, every Rune a MUST use it rune, and then i will be the one choosing my build.

But again nerfing classes is something easy to do right? that why we see it so much in the patches
On the other hand making the "Identify all" demand of the community (from day 2 -all know why not day one- ) was that hard it took the company about a year to make reality is still not Live!


You said everything............


Ty, but the issue here is not that an "idiot" like me summarised it all, but that the obvious was mentioned and that the obvious to everyone else is not that obvious to blizzard.

To add something more on this i would like to mention that they said that the designers are working hard to make all legentaries able to get "painted" on what ever colour... Isnt it obvious it would be better to use the designers to make 1-2 NEW items each patch? The game reaches a stop point and they deny to see it. Characteristic example items like mempo:
-Best in slot item for most if not all classes
-Reached the point everyone has one should they choose it
-Every +0.5% crit after a point is worth billions and some more (That is how low the the game has fallen after a point, want an upgrade? gather billions and some more for 0.5 crit)
-The idea of ground breaking items like mempo is AWESOME but it has to be followed by better ones to make it viable, and keep the interest in farming (in a Farming game like this)
-The opposition that the new items , stronger items will make the game easier too much is easily countered (add more mp! not make the ones existing harder, just add more mp!)

Apart from that idea you could use designers to make more content, new mini games like Ubers etc....

I am sure that 99.99% of players would agree they want new content, new gear, new minibosse fights instead of being able to make their blue pants red. Runing around with a red t-shirt instead of black or blue doesnt change anything in the game experience really, and gets old after 2-3 minutes...
Edited by Phoenix#21114 on 4/21/2013 5:21 AM PDT
04/19/2013 04:10 PMPosted by Travis Day
I have a love hate relationship with Wrath and Archon for that matter. This is a topic that I felt I should at least comment on since it's come up on many occasions. There is no fundamental flaw with having a 2 minute cooldown ability that transforms your character and is really powerful, the problem is when it becomes a forgone conclusion that these AWESOME abilities are up 100% of the time and instead of being excited that they are up you are annoyed when they fall off. We have talked about what if anything we want to do with these abilities in the long term. I will say we have no short term plans to change them but we don't like that they aren't fulfilling their original purpose which is to provide a really awesome button that mixes up the tempo of combat for a small window of time.


You can't compare WOTB and Archon uptime as simply.

WotB gets prolonged by simply swinging. For Archon to get prolonged, you have to actually KILL something.

Look at my profile (the EU one...). I have a Wiz with 320k DPS, about 500k EHP, and 24% movement speed.

With that gear, MP5 is about the max at which I can reliably count on Archon not regularly "going out" on me before the cooldown is over - on extremely mob-intensive farming runs, that is (other than that, it's of course simply unsustainable for more than a few additional seconds).

Starting MP6, it already "goes out" on me before the wooldown is over in close to half the times I activate it (once again, this on extremely mob-intensive farming runs). Simply because I just can't KILL mobs fast enough anymore to compensate for the stopping of movement (I do have to stop moving to attack) and the mob HP going up.

I get what you mean when you say "100% uptime always" shouldn't be the norm for the skill. I totally agree. What I'm saying is, having significant uptime on not-very-low MPs, even MP 5-6, is NOT AT ALL something that is easily achievable. And it does scale with MP, with it being almost impossible to achieve on extremely high MPs (8+).

Now, take any comparably geared barb with WotB/ToC. He'll be able to sustain the skill on MP10, no problem. It doesn't matter if 20 seconds have to be spent by kill, because uptime is awarded JUST BY SWINGING. It's actually EASIER to get WotB/ToC uptime the higher the MP is ! Not to mention the fact barbs usually don't even have to stop to attack (WW+Hurricane run).

My point is : I don't know what you are planning for the future, and I'm not trying to advocate one specific change over another. I'm just saying, please don't put Archon and WotB/ToC in the same bag, because they're not. Their uptime mechanics are fundamentally different, with fundamentally different consequences.
Edited by ParkerLewis#2105 on 4/21/2013 5:40 AM PDT
04/19/2013 04:26 PMPosted by Travis Day
I want to make this point clear. Wrath is an awesome ability, when the game first launched players used it the way it was designed to be used which was as a huge, temporary, power boost to kill a hard champ or fight a boss. The problem stems from the ability to keep it up 100% of the time. Any future change that we would consider making to either this or Archon would be focused on making these not a 100% uptime abilities. So yes as was stated above Wrath isn't the problem, Thrive on Chaos and the assist duration extending mechanic of Archon are the problems.


Thats easy to fix.since both skills last 15 seconds the duration cannot exceed 30 seconds.
Reduce the cooldowns to 20 seconds, the cooldown starts when the effect ends.

Also fix all skills that last 120 seconds, big cooldowns don't fit in ARPG's.
And make all skills possible to critical hit, skills based on critical hits should have some protection "can only proc X time(s) per second."
Edited by DarknessEyes#2490 on 4/21/2013 6:00 AM PDT
04/21/2013 05:36 AMPosted by ParkerLewis
I have a love hate relationship with Wrath and Archon for that matter. This is a topic that I felt I should at least comment on since it's come up on many occasions. There is no fundamental flaw with having a 2 minute cooldown ability that transforms your character and is really powerful, the problem is when it becomes a forgone conclusion that these AWESOME abilities are up 100% of the time and instead of being excited that they are up you are annoyed when they fall off. We have talked about what if anything we want to do with these abilities in the long term. I will say we have no short term plans to change them but we don't like that they aren't fulfilling their original purpose which is to provide a really awesome button that mixes up the tempo of combat for a small window of time.


You can't compare WOTB and Archon uptime as simply.

WotB gets prolonged by simply swinging. For Archon to get prolonged, you have to actually KILL something.

Look at my profile (the EU one...). I have a Wiz with 320k DPS, about 500k EHP, and 24% movement speed.

With that gear, MP5 is about the max at which I can reliably count on Archon not regularly "going out" on me before the cooldown is over - on extremely mob-intensive farming runs, that is (other than that, it's of course simply unsustainable for more than a few additional seconds).

Starting MP6, it already "goes out" on me before the wooldown is over in close to half the times I activate it (once again, this on extremely mob-intensive farming runs). Simply because I just can't KILL mobs fast enough anymore to compensate for the stopping of movement (I do have to stop moving to attack) and the mob HP going up.

I get what you mean when you say "100% uptime always" shouldn't be the norm for the skill. I totally agree. What I'm saying is, having significant uptime on not-very-low MPs, even MP 5-6, is NOT AT ALL something that is easily achievable. And it does scale with MP, with it being almost impossible to achieve on extremely high MPs (8+).

Now, take any comparably geared barb with WotB/ToC. He'll be able to sustain the skill on MP10, no problem. It doesn't matter if 20 seconds have to be spent by kill, because uptime is awarded JUST BY SWINGING. It's actually EASIER to get WotB/ToC uptime the higher the MP is ! Not to mention the fact barbs usually don't even have to stop to attack (WW+Hurricane run).

My point is : I don't know what you are planning for the future, and I'm not trying to advocate one specific change over another. I'm just saying, please don't put Archon and WotB/ToC in the same bag, because they're not. Their uptime mechanics are fundamentally different, with fundamentally different consequences.


Good point, higher MP's become harder for Archon Wizards to hold their Archon Buf, however, at higher MP's you probably transition into CM eventually for more effectiveness. Barbarian doesn't have anything else.

What they could do is just add a "Thrive on Death" instead of "Thrive on Chaos", which would implement the system that you have to kill an enemy for the WoTB to remain active.

HOWEVER different from Archon, it can't go over the normal buff time, Archon can stack to over minutes, but say you kill 1 white mob, you get a 0.2 - 0.5 second increase on your WoTB buff, not necessarily making it more difficult, but it will prevent people with really cheap gear to just steamroll through MP9-MP10. Killing an elite mob of any kind would grant you maybe 2-5 seconds of WoTB allowing you to continue on.

Suddenly WoTB doesn't become as faceroll to keep up with good gear. An okay solution, simply removing it would be a mistake, because Barbs doesn't have any other super effective builds.
I have big issues with this nerf.

They're destroying my wizard build that I've fallen in love with and poured most of my limited time and resources into setting up.

Why, blizzard, do you feel the need to nerf something that just happens to work in a way that was unintended. And why wait so long to do it? People have been building around these skills since launch.

Lastly, instead of nerfing classes, why aren't you fixing itemization? That should be your number 1 priority. It's the biggest complaint everyone has about this game!
I have big issues with this nerf.

They're destroying my wizard build that I've fallen in love with and poured most of my limited time and resources into setting up.

Why, blizzard, do you feel the need to nerf something that just happens to work in a way that was unintended. And why wait so long to do it? People have been building around these skills since launch.

Lastly, instead of nerfing classes, why aren't you fixing itemization? That should be your number 1 priority. It's the biggest complaint everyone has about this game!


This is exactly my case too. I happen to play a barb and fell in love with the WW build. I've built my gear and managed to maintain wotb. In some cases of course. I've been playing since the day 1 and it's quite understandable that I don't want to have my character nerfed. People need to realize that players have invested even real money (I haven't, but gold and time counts too) into their characters and class changes or nerfing tends to have a big impact on this. Sadly (in this case), there's AH and RMAH in this game.
Edited by Guldy#2283 on 4/21/2013 6:43 AM PDT
Unintended? WTF did you think was going to happen. This isn't a bug. These are people gearing to utilize skills YOU put in the game. What did you think would happen when you release an unfinished game that wasn't sufficiently beta tested and then you started this gear treadmill to keep rmah going?

FFS focus on doing something that will benefit the players... like I dont know how about some GD content and character progression that matters

Laziest developers ever. WTB WOW development team. Kick current team to some indy phone game company.

Was wondering when Jay 2.0 would rear his head.

I dont play archon or barb, but jesus this is silly. Why even comment on a post like this?
Edited by Josh#11324 on 4/21/2013 6:49 AM PDT
People and their gear arguments you need crit chance no way so does every other class. Literally nerfing this will have nothing to do with how people gear, everyone is going for the exact same (main, vit, res, aps, cd, crit).
Edited by SWAV#1980 on 4/21/2013 6:58 AM PDT
Why archon? Archon as a skill is bad enough already in high mp's. It needs a BUFF if anything. Wizard now really only has 2 builds which almost everyone uses: archon and cm. There isn't much of room of build diversity to be honest. Nerfing archon will achieve NOTHING but pigeonhole most wizards to use CM build. Wizard has to many useless spells that nobody wants to use. You really should think about buffing these skills rather than nerfing popular skills that everyone uses. Buff unpopular skills -> more potential to build diversity. Nerfing popular skills that every player uses -> lose your player base. You just buffed archon in group play and allow duration to be extended by assist. Now talking about nerf it again? Really? sigh....
04/21/2013 06:47 AMPosted by SWAV
People and their gear arguments you need crit chance no way so does every other class. Literally nerfing this will have nothing to do with how people gear, everyone is going for the exact same (main, vit, res, aps, cd, crit).


yea right, i play a sns wiz with a skorn now...
04/21/2013 07:10 AMPosted by tobyha
yea right, i play a sns wiz with a skorn now...

You could with really good gear, you would still end up with about ~1.8 attack speed with a skorn and your damage output would be pretty good. 400k or more dps skorn sns wizard would be interesting.
Edited by SWAV#1980 on 4/21/2013 7:19 AM PDT
i dont want to remove CC from WOTB at all. i would like that PERMANENT CC immunity is gone

i have 3 ideas that would bring back barbies to the level of other classes, and not one of these touch CC.

WOTB:TOC - requires 40 fury per each second added (with max of 10 extra seconds)

Sprint: Run Like the Wind: movement set at 90%. so you can spam tornadoes as you were but you no longer gain insane mobility while you are at it

attle Rage: Into the Fray - crits grant 5 instead of 15 fury. This will break or 'adjust' not only perma WotB but also HotA builds. Will not destroy them, but for one make them harder to setup. Mighty weapons will make sense again, other fury generating skills will be used etc etc.. nothing short of miracle when it comes to build diversity

and please - up the dmg in inferno! bring the pre-nerf inferno.. make this game difficult again! so increasing monster power level does not result only in longer fights as is now


Why dont you ask blizzard to remove barbs from the game????? would be the same thing............
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