Diablo® III

3 WDs and a Monk - team build demonstration

that's where the lack of understanding of 0dog comes in... thinking that bears is actually better dps then dogs :D at least you understand part of the math behind the 0dog taking into consideration of gruesome feast. however a 0dog is a 275%x4 dog skill. which makes it a 1075% skill. much like bells, every single dog is an AoE. the kicker is that it's impossible to run out of mana in 0dog build. my mana bulb never goes below full because w/o ANY mana regen gear or mana regen skills, my natural mana regen out paces the 0dog usages.

to compare it to monks. it would be like having 700% dmg on TR... BUT with a 45 spirit per second channeling cost. compared to having 4x275% dmg bells,(making it a 1075% skill), but, the bells will have a 1 second cooldown... the upside is it would only cost 1 spirit to cast the bells :D. that's essentially the difference between dogs and bears. bears is NOT sustainable whereas dogs can be cast none stop for the entire day...
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Who said Bears does more damage than 0dog? Did I miss something?

Since you brought it up though, I would actually question how true it is that 0dog can beat a good Bears WD in group play. You have evidence?

We all know that in order to get 0dog you have to take some pretty expensive, yet still horrible gear, hence your 118k base dps. Bear WDs don't have the same issue.

(I understand how the intel buffs work though and concede 0dog is an excellent build!)

Also, nonstop doesn't matter as much when things don't survive for long periods of time. If the Bear WD can sustain long enough for a kill, who cares how much longer the 0dog can go?

That is also the same situation with a monk who can spam bells.
Edited by Fitz#1329 on 4/21/2013 3:52 PM PDT
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bears are very competitive even into MP10. however in the very top end, when considering the "perfect" build where you have unlimited gear selection, the bear build will have a gear advantage and dog will have a skill advantage.

you are correct in saying that bears are not constrained by the 0dog gear selection, however, if you delve into the actual difference in DPS output in gear, it does not make up the difference between bear a 708% skill (3bear x 236%) and dog a 1075% skill (4dog x 275%)

1st and worst piece of gear is homunculus. there is no doubt that bears have the upper hand here. they are able to use skorn while 0dog can not. it is an absolute win for bear build

2nd piece of gear is SoJ. yes paper dps gives the win to bears, however... nobody at MP10 has problems killing trash. the dps battle is at the elites and bosses. and no other piece of gear in game gives a greater elite dmg advantage then SoJ. even some bear build wear SoJ because of it. why worry about trash mob when it's the elites that kills you...

3rd piece of gear is giyua. cant compete with what bear builds can choose, but overall it's not entirely terrible piece of gear. it can roll one of the trifecta stats and it does come with a socket. a replacement for the giyua would be a "perfect" Kaleidoscope which CAN roll a trifecta. you do miss out on primary stats as it is limited to 89 max roll but it's a small price to pay at this point. you can also pick skull grasp, but it's not any different then choosing giyua.

so bear build has massively better weapon and better necklace while ring may be the same if you are going for practical build rather then paper build. damage wise, it really depends on the situation and what you are killing. overall average, the 4 dogs will do better then 3 bears due to the area coverage of the dogs. bears "can" be faster, but just like bells, the faster you spam the faster you are out of juice :) which is the main reason they prefer skorn in the 1st place.

if you prefer to group with bear docs by all means group with them. but... to say they out perform dogs... I can see that from your point of view since a top end 0dog is far more expensive then bear build and those who have high end 0dog rarely group outside their own friend list.
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Thanks for the info. I have never played with a Bear WD. I also never said Bears did better dps, lol. You trolling me or something?

I used to play very regularly with a 0dog WD though. He switched to Nirvana monk recently.

I do have alot of experience playing with a 135k 0dog WD. That is how I know how they work. I have no idea if they outperform Bears though.
Edited by Fitz#1329 on 4/21/2013 5:27 PM PDT
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for the most part, bear does out perform dogs because it's so expensive to do 0dog correctly. for the SAME budget, you will almost always get a better bear build then a dog build. it's only when you approach unlimited budget that dogs can pull ahead. for example how much do you think a "perfect" kaleidoscope would cost? :D

general rule of thumb. yes bears are better because they are cheaper to build. but when looking strictly at MP10, that may not be true because you might run into a 0dog that is actually well built.
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04/21/2013 03:12 PMPosted by Fitz
You are doing it wrong. You cannot exceed the spirit regen with any spenders.

actually I didn't knew about the "nirvana build" for monks before this topic. So yesterday I've tried the build and it was incredibly funny:) I've checked all spirit spenders just to see how it looks when I spam it. I'm so happy with this build:)
It's not very effective for me, because I should change my WKL to something else and switch arm and I need a SoJ, but overall it's a cool build. Thanks!
Edited by Male#2905 on 4/21/2013 11:12 PM PDT
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Or CM WIZ +WD-Dogs + WD-Bears + Monk.. though you need a pretty decent graphics card if you want your visuals to run smoothly.

efficiency aside, WD are just fun as hell to play with.


+1000000000

I play with 1 0 ZD and no one else and get screen freeze.
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just my 2c

I dumped my very well geared p100 0-dog wd for a brand new monk. The 0 dog is awesome in a group but solo it was a huge pain in the !@# against anything that moved. If a mob kited me it was better to just skip it than chase. Sure, you could pick your battles and go places where most of the elites didn't run around but that certainly limited your options.

Plus, once you're geared for 0 dogs you can't play any other spec with your 0 dog gear. Not only is Homunculus effing terrible, but all the rest of your gear now has IAS on it which is garbage for every other build since WD resource regen is absolutely stupid.

I've found with CS I'm just as valuable in a group and with bells I can effectively solo -- far more effectively with the monk than the WD. Overall gear value is about the same.

EDIT: btw, my "perfect" group = CS monk, freeze wiz, 0 dog wd, and 1 other massive dps char which could be HOTA barb, another 0 dog, or pillar monk running nirvana. sorry dh, you so bad!
Edited by SilentMike69#1275 on 4/22/2013 6:50 AM PDT
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well.... if you have to carry a DH, make sure they at least have valley of death since that synergize well with CS. besides things will be dying so fast that it matters little if you are carrying a DH :D
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Or CM WIZ +WD-Dogs + WD-Bears + Monk.. though you need a pretty decent graphics card if you want your visuals to run smoothly.

efficiency aside, WD are just fun as hell to play with.


+1000000000

I play with 1 0 ZD and no one else and get screen freeze.


that's not good to hear coz i was gonna build one in the item patch

maybe its our location (aus)
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dont know why people think 0dog is graphics intensive... a CM wiz easily out lag your machine. a 0dog has 4 explosions roughly every seconds with screen shake. a CM wiz has tornados, crystal shards, frost nova, chain reaction explosions, and sometime meteors.... a CM wiz lag your machine FAR more then a 0dog can ever lag your machine :D heck. graphically speaking 0dog is barely more graphic intensive then a fully charged cyclone with CS and bells going off...
Edited by Psyclum#1653 on 4/22/2013 8:29 AM PDT
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04/22/2013 08:28 AMPosted by Psyclum
dont know why people think 0dog is graphics intensive... a CM wiz easily out lag your machine. a 0dog has 4 explosions roughly every seconds with screen shake. a CM wiz has tornados, crystal shards, frost nova, chain reaction explosions, and sometime meteors.... a CM wiz lag your machine FAR more then a 0dog can ever lag your machine :D heck. graphically speaking 0dog is barely more graphic intensive then a fully charged cyclone with CS and bells going off...


Go into Crypt of the Ancients in act 1, a CM wiz will ALWAYS nearly stall your computer.
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04/22/2013 08:28 AMPosted by Psyclum
dont know why people think 0dog is graphics intensive... a CM wiz easily out lag your machine. a 0dog has 4 explosions roughly every seconds with screen shake. a CM wiz has tornados, crystal shards, frost nova, chain reaction explosions, and sometime meteors.... a CM wiz lag your machine FAR more then a 0dog can ever lag your machine :D heck. graphically speaking 0dog is barely more graphic intensive then a fully charged cyclone with CS and bells going off...


the frames don't lie. 0 dog is by far the most intensive spec i've seen. for those who don't know, you can hit ctrl-r and your framerate will display at the bottom right hand corner of the screen. my monk on 2560x1440 and all settings maxxed (except shadows) will typically give me >120 fps in combat, my wd would bring that down to 35 on 1920x1080 with all graphics settings minimized.
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well, my machine doesn't lag much at 1200P with my 7970. but throw a wizzy in the picture, then i'm starting to see some micro stutter.
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Linked this up in a Group Build Guide Reference I'm trying to put together.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/8728183759
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@Tranquility

If I have time over the next few days I will make a brief guide on the setup.
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hey, i got a okay 0dog wd. add me for party!
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