Diablo® III

Un-Nerfing The Nerfed Demon Hunter Skills

Hello fellow DH's!

I am here to suggest to blizzard that they un-nerf some of our over nerfed skills as a step in the right direction to rebuffing us.

Now i know it wont be enough to fix the class alone since we will still have many eDPS issues i believe it is at the very least a step in the right direction. Here is a list of some of my suggestions and whys.

This isn't a thread about new skills or new passive buffs etc, that needs an entirely different thread and is a much trickier thing for blizzard to implement while this already has existed and is easier to gauge the results and should be relatively quick to implement while other options get explored and theory crafted.

Feel free to chime in and post comments and suggestions.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Caltrops Jagged Spikes - Return some of the proc rate
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

return the proc rate to Caltrops, it doest have to be so high but a small percentage would be a major help.

All you veteran DH and ex-DH alive from the 1.03 days would remember how awesome the sentry, jagged spikes, tank build was. It was a lot of fun and definitely helped our class a ton from being so squishy with a proc rate allowing for LOH to be viable and Crowd Control gear based affixes like freeze, stun, fear etc etc. As many know Crowd Control is VERY important for DH's to keep their distances or to immobalize their enemies to allow them to deal damage.

Blizzard decided to nerf it completely to the ground with no warning or reason besides posting it into the patch notes the day of 1.04's release. I am here to discuss if people think that not only was this a knee jerk reaction but an overstep into the nerf territory where it should have been a reduced proc rate and not an outright removal.

As many of you will know blizzard gave the wizard and barb a proc rate punch that patch also but gave the wizard a long reason behind why they decided to LOWER their proc rate. Fast forward to 1.07 and the CMWW build is still perma stun locking constantly, barbs can still perma WOTB. Sure it might take some better gear but no amount of gear can make jagged spikes proc ever again. So the question is why was caltrops reduced to zero proc?

I suggest returning Caltrops proc rate back up to the same levels as Wizards Energy Twister Wicked Wind rates. Not back to the same levels as before but at least comparable to the current procs of say energy twister. Nerfed but not at 0%

Now that we have higher MP's and more classes receiving vast buffs and improvements i feel it is time we un-nerfed some of the proc rate to jagged spikes. For starters it would synergize well with the defensive buffs blizzard gave us with sentries, passives and pets and would be a step in the right direction for us to compete at a higher level in the consistent effective DPS department again in higher MP levels.

It was also a very different play style from the usual kite and run builds, a lot more defensive and great crowd control to help DH's out from being too squishy and even though we do have many things similar today this would be another option to use in ones skill bar along with turrets etc.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Trail of Cinders - Return it to a high risk high reward skill
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This skill was an amazing breath of fresh air at the time it was buffed for 1.04. The fact that it allowed DH's to take the risk of using some discipline at the cost of cannonballing into a dangerous situation and if timed right would give high reward in damages. This skill was then nerfed to such a low level that it becomes useless outside of MP1. The idea that it shouldnt be used offensively since its a defensive skill goes against the grain of what other classes have been doing. Barbs Run Like the Wind is a Defensive escape skill that is used offensively for example.

At the time many people complained saying it was OP but now in hindsight with the new Monster Power System its no longer overpowered how people thought it was. People said it was over powered for melting mobs in one or two strikes but now who doesn't kill everything in one or two hits in mp3? Which is roughly where the game was back in 1.04 pre monster powers. Again that skill was over nerfed without realizing how the meta game would change.

Now it isnt as over powered as it was back then if you were to use it in mp10 for example but in its current nerfed state its useless. The skill deserves to return to a decent damage value, if 1500% is too much then maybe 700-800? 300% right now is way to low and only valuable in mp0-2 and it should reward the player for using it in risky situations with the heavy damage it used to do.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nether Tentacles - Return the multi hitting of nether tentacles
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This skill is hardly used by anyone anymore, it needs to return to a usable skill with its multi hitting capabilities. It wouldn't leave BL in the dust because for low MP's the AOE of ball lightning is supreme but much less effective the higher you scale in MP's. That then allows the re-buffed nether tentacles to become viable for higher MP's.

While you lose some of the AOE of ball lightning you gain single target damage (which is what higher MP's are mostly about, wearing down the huge HP elites and such) Again at the time this was nerfed other classes had yet to find their increasing heavy hitting builds and was sadly nerfed long before it should have.

Now that the meta game has changed and many classes can crush high MP enemies with massive damage dealers that are spammable, i don't see how this couldn't be returned to its original state now that the game has grown in a new direction.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Smoke Screen
- Return the 3 second SS with the current cooldown
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3 second SS cant be 100% uptime due to the cool down that was put into it to prevent chain casting it, thats what made it very powerful back when it was 3 seconds due to zero cooldown between the casts. It allowed for certain DH's to heavily optimize their gear and their skills for damage output. shouldn't they be allowed the option to seeing as how they are the supposed glass cannon class? (right now more like zero cannon but still doesn't mean it shouldn't be an option)

Also i want to clarify that yes there should be a cooldown in between casting the skill, i dont want people to be able to chain cast the skill like shadow power currently can. If the legnth of the skills is increased to 2 seconds then the cooldown should increase with the proper ratio so 2.5 second cooldown. Or if the skill is 3 seconds then 3.5 seconds... etc etc. I do not want it to be perma casted without a cooldown in between each ast like it currently has. I want the length extended but yes a cooldown betweem each cast of Smoke Screen.

why should it matter for PVE? Even when the 3 second SS was around you truly wernt 100% invincible lol if you made a mistake you paid for it. Thats how the class was originally designed to be played. High Risk High Reward (which is why Trail of Cinders in its buffed state was so fun to play by many DH's. It gave that feeling back to the class) The only reason people got mad about it was because at launch DH's just played pacman with it and ran past everything to race to inferno but it didn't make killing mobs any easier lol it just let you slide through damage more but if you slipped up it was over. Now that racing to the end doesnt matter, and we have MP10 and such, why not return this skill to the way it was? Its not as OP as people think anymore.

Why shouldnt we be allowed to play that way again with hair trigger reflexes? It would also allow DH's to not have to rely on gloom, some prefer to play glass cannon style and should have the option of a proper SS and those who prefer more mitigation can use gloom. It opens up further options for players who prefer to play the DH as a glass cannon with heavy visceral gameplay that rely on reflexes, reaction times and skill rather than purely defensive mitigation gear. Likewise it doesnt destroy that option for other DH's who choose to tank more.

If 3 seconds is too much hows 2 seconds unruned and 2.5 runed? Honestly dont see the problem with 3 seconds for PVE.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PVP - Regarding the un-nerfing of skills
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Currently brawling has zero reward so i dont think pvp should even be an issue regarding the un-nerfing of skills but eventually when blizzard does roll out a team based/reward based/ladder based pvp system that rewards the players then i agree some of these skills should be nerfed like SS. But by nerfed i mean ONLY when you enter the PVP arena. In fact i believe all classes should have a separate numbers/skills balancing when entering PVP.

It would save blizzard all the trouble of trying to nerf/buff all classes for both PVE and PVP together. It would be easier to build a seperate system with different numbers and figures based off of PVE numbers. That said PVE we should feel powerful and the un-nerfing of these skills is a step in the right direction and PVP should be addressed differently.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Final Thoughts
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By un-nerfing these skills it opens up the doors for better builds for both current DH play styles, either the tanky mitigation build face tanking or the high risk high reward visceral glass cannon style and would help bring some excitement back into the class. It wont fix all our problems but they are a step in the right direction.

At the time they were nerfed due to the meta game of the time but now the game has changed and evolved and these skills have a place again in the game and deserve a second chance in the game. The Monster Power system changed things drastically and in hindsight of all these nerfs they should be reviewed again and returned to their rightful position post Monster Power.

If any Blues or Developers see this. Please understand that the game has changed and many DH's feel that the feeling of being underpowered now is a direct result of all the heavy handed nerfing we have received from launch and this would be a great start that can be quickly done to help get this class moving again in PVE efficiency. Its not the entire answer but its a step in the right direction.

Thank you for reading!
Edited by METATRON#1945 on 5/9/2013 12:09 AM PDT
Reply Quote
nobody? lol
Reply Quote
b
Reply Quote
+1000. Well said and great points. I agree 100%

We got nerfed too hard too much too quick. And, yes. Without warning *cough* TOC *cough* and with out some explanation (JW's underpants were in a knot cuz he mained a barb.)

Give us back that beautiful DH you designed. Take back your gimped current DH.
Reply Quote
Can't disagree one bit

bump
Reply Quote
Very imaginative balance suggestions.
Reply Quote
Bump! Hope they add more changes than just the rapid fire one.
Reply Quote
i say if the ONLY thing done this patch for us is a return to the glorious 1500% trail of cinders, then we can all call that a win.
Reply Quote
Great writeup META... Got all teary-eyed while reading all the nerf history... :((

@Blizzard: Help us become the real HUNTERS again and not the HAUNTED.
Reply Quote
glad you guys liked it! Hopefully more people chime in and some blues eventually pass this along. I think everything i posted was reasonable and the explanations as to why are fair enough. Lets hope we can finally get some changes for the better for this class!
Reply Quote
+1, I think the TOC is probably the only time i feel really powerful. Jagged spikes was the time when i feel really tanky without Gloom. Unfortunately NT was crap when i unlocked the skill LOL
Reply Quote
I agree with all your points, except Smoke Screen. No one should be allowed to perma-SS.
Reply Quote
I don't mind the timer on the smoke right now, but they need to make it so I can pass through mobs when I smoke. right now the only way to run out of a crowd is to vault, but you take damage when you vault and the mobs has auto-homing and invisible arms.

A suggested proc rate for jagged spike is 8%, you can stack 10 so it will be 80%, most likely 40% with 5 stack.
Reply Quote
04/13/2013 01:13 AMPosted by DaFemaleBoss
I agree with all your points, except Smoke Screen. No one should be allowed to perma-SS.


Never said anything about perma SS lol I said it should keep the cool down it has currently so you can't chain cast it but the timer should be increased to a more reasonable level of 2-3 seconds like it was before.
Reply Quote
I don't mind the timer on the smoke right now, but they need to make it so I can pass through mobs when I smoke. right now the only way to run out of a crowd is to vault, but you take damage when you vault and the mobs has auto-homing and invisible arms.

A suggested proc rate for jagged spike is 8%, you can stack 10 so it will be 80%, most likely 40% with 5 stack.


Yes that's one of its current issues that it doesn't evade collision detection and also doesn't always shake mobs aggro all the time.as for the cool down I think it's fine and it is what truly addressed its issue at launch that you could cast it again before it ended allowing for chain casting (similar to how shadow power works now) but if there is a cool down on it now I don't see why it's not reasonable to extend is length to be a viable alternative to shadow power for players who might prefer it as glass cannon players.

2-3 seconds sounds a lot more reasonable and worth putting on your bar. As it stands there really is no reason to when options like gloom are so much better outside of pvp hardly anyone takes it anymore. I am just suggesting making it more competative to the alternative like gloom for example. Gloom provides the mitigation and LS for those who prefer having lots of AR and Vit to take advantage of it while the more glass cannon type players would possibly prefer just a get out of dodge skill like a buffed Smoke Screen.

Right now it doesn't fulfill any role or is even worth the equal discipline and poor performance versus shadow power.

Also I agree with your caltrops assesment and of course the numbers can be fudged around but I think energy twister comparable proc rates are a good ground to base it from.
Edited by METATRON#1945 on 4/13/2013 4:47 AM PDT
Reply Quote
Only problem is I don't think Blizzard has ever un-nerfed anything in D3, since for whatever reason they seem to be afraid to admit that they were wrong in making changes.
Reply Quote
04/13/2013 04:39 AMPosted by METATRON
I agree with all your points, except Smoke Screen. No one should be allowed to perma-SS.


Never said anything about perma SS lol I said it should keep the cool down it has currently so you can't chain cast it but the timer should be increased to a more reasonable level of 2-3 seconds like it was before.


You want SS to last for 2 or 3 secs with the current SS cooldown duration which is 2 secs. That is perma-SS.
Reply Quote
04/12/2013 02:23 PMPosted by METATRON
Return it to a high risk high reward skill

When bugged ToC was around, we were glass cannons. Now tanking is trivial. More damage increases our survivability thanks to gloom.

04/12/2013 02:23 PMPosted by METATRON
Why shouldnt we be allowed to play that way again with hair trigger reflexes?

You already can do that, current smoke screen works quite well actually (I just tried act 3 mp10 only wearing 2 items...). The real solution to this is nerfing our survivability, it's too high at the moment to make reflexes necessary. Making Gloom life steal/damage reduction 5/15% and unbuffing perfection would be a start.

Nether Tentacles - Return the multi hitting of nether tentacles

Every other attack would become useless, except possibly in some low mp speed builds. Why would making this specific skill op be a good idea? Why not increase the damage of CA to 1200%, or Multi Shot to 500% instead? Perhaps give shoking gas 2000% damage and 30y aoe. Reintroducing something just because it was bugged at one point is a terrible way to balance a game.

04/13/2013 04:45 AMPosted by METATRON
Also I agree with your caltrops assesment and of course the numbers can be fudged around but I think energy twister comparable proc rates are a good ground to base it from.

So you don't want us to play with hair trigger reflexes, you want us to play like CM wizards, facetanking with op procing skills. Standing there with infinite discipline, spamming ToC, Gloom and SS as much as we want.

Your post reads as "I want to be buffed to be the strongest class in the game but I lack imagination to propose anything other than unnerfing skills and reintroducing bugs. I don't actually care about dh play style, but I'm jumping the bandwagon and using it as an argument to sound more reasonable".
Reply Quote
Some good points. ;)
DHs need more changes. Rapid fire is a good one, but it's not enough.
Reply Quote
un-nerfing smoke screen and TOC would make DH extremely overpowered for pvp.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]