Diablo® III

Un-Nerfing The Nerfed Demon Hunter Skills

04/13/2013 04:57 AMPosted by TianZi
Only problem is I don't think Blizzard has ever un-nerfed anything in D3, since for whatever reason they seem to be afraid to admit that they were wrong in making changes.


They kinda un-nerfed the wizard's signature spells proc rate. (by a little)

I think along with un-nerfing these skills, a lot of other skills need a major buff / revamp.

would be nice if cluster arrow cost less, grenades / entangling shots are more useful. Cool down needs to be reduced on a number of skills. Archery needs to be buffed. The list goes on.
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04/13/2013 05:04 AMPosted by DaFemaleBoss


Never said anything about perma SS lol I said it should keep the cool down it has currently so you can't chain cast it but the timer should be increased to a more reasonable level of 2-3 seconds like it was before.


You want SS to last for 2 or 3 secs with the current SS cooldown duration which is 2 secs. That is perma-SS.


Maybe you misunderstood what I meant, whatever duration te skills has it needs to have a cool down inbetween the casts just how we have a cool down now inbetween casts.
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04/13/2013 08:21 AMPosted by Monsta
un-nerfing smoke screen and TOC would make DH extremely overpowered for pvp.


Brawling in its current form doesn't really matter and we all know it, like I said if people think its OP for rawling then let it be balanced for pvp while your in a pvp match. Outside of pvp it can revert to its more powerful PVE version. Just how blizzard made 30% dmg reduction for all classes in PVP but the effect goes away when you exit
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Return it to a high risk high reward skill

When bugged ToC was around, we were glass cannons. Now tanking is trivial. More damage increases our survivability thanks to gloom.

Why shouldnt we be allowed to play that way again with hair trigger reflexes?

You already can do that, current smoke screen works quite well actually (I just tried act 3 mp10 only wearing 2 items...). The real solution to this is nerfing our survivability, it's too high at the moment to make reflexes necessary. Making Gloom life steal/damage reduction 5/15% and unbuffing perfection would be a start.

Nether Tentacles - Return the multi hitting of nether tentacles

Every other attack would become useless, except possibly in some low mp speed builds. Why would making this specific skill op be a good idea? Why not increase the damage of CA to 1200%, or Multi Shot to 500% instead? Perhaps give shoking gas 2000% damage and 30y aoe. Reintroducing something just because it was bugged at one point is a terrible way to balance a game.

04/13/2013 04:45 AMPosted by METATRON
Also I agree with your caltrops assesment and of course the numbers can be fudged around but I think energy twister comparable proc rates are a good ground to base it from.

So you don't want us to play with hair trigger reflexes, you want us to play like CM wizards, facetanking with op procing skills. Standing there with infinite discipline, spamming ToC, Gloom and SS as much as we want.

Your post reads as "I want to be buffed to be the strongest class in the game but I lack imagination to propose anything other than unnerfing skills and reintroducing bugs. I don't actually care about dh play style, but I'm jumping the bandwagon and using it as an argument to sound more reasonable".


While your post has some good points you make it sound a lot easier than it would be to pull off. For starters the only reason people can perma gloom, (keep in mind not everyone can and if they do they have to roll with heavy proc skills like cluster grenades and face tank) is because blizzard extended shadow power to 5 seconds. SS costs the same amount and my proposed length would be 2-3 seconds. I very much doubt few players could sustain that.

As for the multi hitting nether tentacles you think it would be the best skill right now, sure it probably would because our current damage multipliers blow for everything else. If say LFB hit for 800% like a bell then everything changes compared to single target dmg cluster bombs would even be more devestating but require more skill to land most of the mini bombs. See I stated in the beginning this would help be a step in the right direction but the class needs a major overhaul on all our other skills also. Unnerfing NT would be great if the dmg remains the same just hit multiple times but then other skills multipliers were brought up since that's our core eDPS issue.

As for caltrops, we will be able to use some CC effects from gear that's great! They are hardly ever used anyways and by picking them up you gimp other stats. You act like a 1% freeze is going to turn us into a CM wizard lol. Again I said we should have the option to play as a hair trigger glass cannon or if ou want one piece of stun gear to use it to keep enemie still for your spike traps etc. if you decide to full on spec for crowd control then that's your choice. Your goin to gimp yourself in some departments but it provides another play style based around utility rather than DPS and can be useful for the party. How that's a bad thing I dunno lol build variety.

As for TOC, so what your telling me is someone is going to have TOC, SS, Caltrops, Nether tentacles, Gloom (can't heal without it unless you further drop DPS for LOH or LS weapon) all on their bar and face tank while spamming all those discipline heavy skills? I highly doubt that. Sure some might be able to do it with the proper gear but even with all that I doubt DH's will be immortal or perma stun lock like cm wiz or avoid CC effects always. The moment you slip up and open up out of SS or improperly manage discipline your toast. What I see happening more often than not is if your going to face tank gloom is still a better option, why take SS when u can take caltrops or sentries marked for death etc etc? If your playing as glass cannon SS is better for you then gloom.

All I'm saying is unnerfing these skills somewhat to be viable competitive options again won't break the game like they did before if they are unnerfed properly. What they will do is create more build variety and options for different play styles. At no point did I say this was all that was needed, in fact we do need higher damage multipliers for say cluster arrows rain of vengeance etc etc. this thread was just for discussing our over nerfed skills. If 1500% TOC is too much bring it down to 1000% then but make it a competitive option with tumble. If Caltrops proc of energy twister is too high then lower it some but make it worth putting on our bar and interesting for utility again. If 3 second SS with cool down is to much make it 2 then but a viable option instead if gloom. If nether tentacles is the new go to spell for high MP's make Cluster arrows pack more punch since they are hatred heavy.

Pretty simple really, the only reason I am mentioning unnerfing these skills is because they were there and they helped provide more options and today DH's need not only more efficiency but more options on how to approach situations.
Edited by METATRON#1945 on 4/13/2013 12:29 PM PDT
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04/13/2013 04:39 AMPosted by METATRON
I agree with all your points, except Smoke Screen. No one should be allowed to perma-SS.


Never said anything about perma SS lol I said it should keep the cool down it has currently so you can't chain cast it but the timer should be increased to a more reasonable level of 2-3 seconds like it was before.


currently SS has 2 sec cd, in fact i think it always had a 2 sec or 1.5 sec cd. if the duration is returned to 3 secs i can assure you that ppl will be perma SSing.

want to play with SS on high mp? simple, stop being gc so you can toss the survivability crutch that is gloom.
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Never said anything about perma SS lol I said it should keep the cool down it has currently so you can't chain cast it but the timer should be increased to a more reasonable level of 2-3 seconds like it was before.


currently SS has 2 sec cd, in fact i think it always had a 2 sec or 1.5 sec cd. if the duration is returned to 3 secs i can assure you that ppl will be perma SSing.

want to play with SS on high mp? simple, stop being gc so you can toss the survivability crutch that is gloom.


how do people not understand? let me further clarify... LOL! no it hasnt always had the cooldown, the cooldown was implemented to stop it from being chain casted like shadow power currently is. What i am saying is KEEP the cooldown in ratio with whatever duration it has. is that so hard for people to understand? if your SS lasts 2 seconds then the cool down is 2.5 seconds or whatever number beyond the SS length. the cooldown obviously increases if the duration increases. I even stated KEEP the cooldown. By keep i mean its still there so you cannot chain cast it. Dont understand how people miss that lol

also people should be allowed to play as a glasscannon if this is the glasscannon class. lol not everyone likes playing as a face tanker, some people like playing their DH like a game of contra. Just saying its more options.

That said i still dont understand where people are getting the no cooldown stuff. if SS lasts 2seconds then obviously the cooldown is going to be 2.5 or whatever if SS is 3 then obviously the cooldown should be 3.5 lol

maybe i should clarify it further in the original post for people
Edited by METATRON#1945 on 4/13/2013 5:11 PM PDT
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*edited the original post to further clarify what i meant about SS. No i dont want perma SS i want a cooldown in between casting it. I just want a longer duration of the up time it has.
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04/13/2013 05:12 PMPosted by METATRON
*edited the original post to further clarify what i meant about SS. No i dont want perma SS i want a cooldown in between casting it. I just want a longer duration of the up time it has.


Definitely agree there. The current duration is a joke.
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That said i still dont understand where people are getting the no cooldown stuff. if SS lasts 2seconds then obviously the cooldown is going to be 2.5 or whatever if SS is 3 then obviously the cooldown should be 3.5 lol

maybe i should clarify it further in the original post for people


so 3/3.5, 85% of the time immune to all CC and dmg is fine and balance for u? imagine monks serenity having 17 secs duration on 20 sec cd ;)-, and there i thought WOTB was over the top...

and i m not against anyone playing glasscannon, was just saying you should spec according to your gears and playstyle, e.g. to play with SS and no gloom (or shadow power), you either need good survival stats, or a windforce.
Edited by nights#2463 on 4/13/2013 7:34 PM PDT
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Agreed Demon Hunters aren't compariable to Wizzards/ WW Bards but don't know if this is the way to aid the problem...
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That said i still dont understand where people are getting the no cooldown stuff. if SS lasts 2seconds then obviously the cooldown is going to be 2.5 or whatever if SS is 3 then obviously the cooldown should be 3.5 lol

maybe i should clarify it further in the original post for people


so 3/3.5, 85% of the time immune to all CC and dmg is fine and balance for u? imagine monks serenity having 17 secs duration on 20 sec cd ;)-, and there i thought WOTB was over the top...

and i m not against anyone playing glasscannon, was just saying you should spec according to your gears and playstyle, e.g. to play with SS and no gloom (or shadow power), you either need good survival stats, or a windforce.


Nobody will be able to keep it up that long, people couldn't keep gloom up perma when it was 3 seconds, it wasnt until it was 5 seconds That people could perma gloom. So yea that probably won't happen also how is SS with 2-3 seconds gonna break the game for PVE anymore than cm wiz or perma WOTB? With zero breaks inbetween? Let me know? Lol 2-3 seconds SS with cool down will be great but it still won't be that OP. it does nothing to increase our kill times. All it provides is some survivability. You act like everyone has infinite discipline, they don't lol unless that have amazing gear and even then it requires good balancing indiscipline usage. If a mediocre geared barb or wiz or monk can perma spam bells, freeze or WOTB why can't DH have a decent SS uptime with godly gear? Like I said there was no perma gloom until the 5second gloom mark at 3 seconds it took good balancing. Gloom costs as much as SS so you can never perma SS at 3 seconds with 3.5 second cool down.

As a further question how can anyone have a problem with PVE skills? What do you have to lose or any other class have to gain or lose from these changes? I don't understand the problem and most DH's would agree.
Edited by METATRON#1945 on 4/13/2013 10:58 PM PDT
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04/13/2013 08:51 PMPosted by Rangermuffin
Agreed Demon Hunters aren't compariable to Wizzards/ WW Bards but don't know if this is the way to aid the problem...


I agree..hence I'm enjoying my wd nowadays (they're not in a great spot either). Just utilize the dh for mp1-3 gold runs..PuR!
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I don't mind the timer on the smoke right now, but they need to make it so I can pass through mobs when I smoke. right now the only way to run out of a crowd is to vault, but you take damage when you vault and the mobs has auto-homing and invisible arms.

A suggested proc rate for jagged spike is 8%, you can stack 10 so it will be 80%, most likely 40% with 5 stack.


Yes that's one of its current issues that it doesn't evade collision detection and also doesn't always shake mobs aggro all the time.as for the cool down I think it's fine and it is what truly addressed its issue at launch that you could cast it again before it ended allowing for chain casting (similar to how shadow power works now) but if there is a cool down on it now I don't see why it's not reasonable to extend is length to be a viable alternative to shadow power for players who might prefer it as glass cannon players.

2-3 seconds sounds a lot more reasonable and worth putting on your bar. As it stands there really is no reason to when options like gloom are so much better outside of pvp hardly anyone takes it anymore. I am just suggesting making it more competative to the alternative like gloom for example. Gloom provides the mitigation and LS for those who prefer having lots of AR and Vit to take advantage of it while the more glass cannon type players would possibly prefer just a get out of dodge skill like a buffed Smoke Screen.

Right now it doesn't fulfill any role or is even worth the equal discipline and poor performance versus shadow power.

Also I agree with your caltrops assesment and of course the numbers can be fudged around but I think energy twister comparable proc rates are a good ground to base it from.


I dont think its fair to compare ss to gloom, they have different uses. SS is more of a "oh crap" skill, the goto skill when you know you are in great danger, like when you get vortexed into frozen bombs and you absolutely need to break free in the next 0.001s to avoid death, its pretty much the DH version of serenity, except that it has no cooldown. Gloom greatly increases your survivability but its not an "oh crap" skill, it wasnt supposed to replace ss since you cannot break cc and you dont get invulnerability from it.

I agree that ss needs to be able escape detection collision, they should go all out with it since it was designed to give complete invulnerability for a very short period of time.
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perma SS will not bring DH back to the table... DH are doing fine on the defensive end... it's the offensive end they NEED help with. perma SS is NOT an offensive ability. sure... you can KILL ghom in 38 minuets flat with perma SS, but that doesn't quite address the issue does it?
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They also nerfed Gloom but they called it a buff.
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04/13/2013 05:49 AMPosted by Josef
Your post reads as "I want to be buffed to be the strongest class in the game but I lack imagination to propose anything other than unnerfing skills and reintroducing bugs. I don't actually care about dh play style, but I'm jumping the bandwagon and using it as an argument to sound more reasonable".


+100

sorry OP, but TOC in pre-nerf state was COMPLETELY BROKEN. For Legacy Nat users it was free uber damage. Skill with Extreme utility and Extreme damage and (almost) no cost.. sorry. And dont say it was 'high risk' skill. It was a monkey-level check - "do I have disc to jump there and back?". Where is the risk? Broken is Broken

Caltrops would make DHs tank EVEN more than now, same with Nether Tentacles. One Gloom is enough. Gloom ruined this class by killing any creative thinking. And I do not blame players for that - they were given an easy way and theyve gladly followed.

These skills were nerfed and that was a good decision. If they buff other skills (impale, chackram, cluster) along the lines RapidFire is being buffed and tweak resource gen a bit (and nerf Barb and raise cost of Empowered Wawe) DH will be at the same level as other classes.
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04/14/2013 10:40 PMPosted by sidtherat
Your post reads as "I want to be buffed to be the strongest class in the game but I lack imagination to propose anything other than unnerfing skills and reintroducing bugs. I don't actually care about dh play style, but I'm jumping the bandwagon and using it as an argument to sound more reasonable".


+100

sorry OP, but TOC in pre-nerf state was COMPLETELY BROKEN. For Legacy Nat users it was free uber damage. Skill with Extreme utility and Extreme damage and (almost) no cost.. sorry. And dont say it was 'high risk' skill. It was a monkey-level check - "do I have disc to jump there and back?". Where is the risk? Broken is Broken

Caltrops would make DHs tank EVEN more than now, same with Nether Tentacles. One Gloom is enough. Gloom ruined this class by killing any creative thinking. And I do not blame players for that - they were given an easy way and theyve gladly followed.

These skills were nerfed and that was a good decision. If they buff other skills (impale, chackram, cluster) along the lines RapidFire is being buffed and tweak resource gen a bit (and nerf Barb and raise cost of Empowered Wawe) DH will be at the same level as other classes.


What i find fascinating is that a barb main would come in here with only 4k DH elite kills and say that TOC was a completely broken skill LOL! Whoa dude you guys never know when to chill that you guys would go out of your way to come into another classes forums to keep them down. ITs bad enough barbs got us nerfed to begin with but thats just ridiculous.

That said, TOC at the time might have felt broken but in hindsight mp3 all classes can charge through and one shot everything now. If TOC is broken because you claim it has extreme utility and extreme damage and no cost then tell me what Run Like the Wind is for barbs? Generates fury, its a defensive skill for utility but somehow is used offensively, basically zero cost since it procs so much, no risk, and it kills everything in its wake just like TOC did. Thats the real reason barbs cried nerf when it appeared. They cried to blizzard saying that it shouldn't compete with WW barbs blah blah. No if you were to play mp3 with nay decent geared character you will one shot everything behind you, RLTW does EXACTLY what TOC does and better. Nevermind that any good TR monk can do the same thing and just melt everything in mp3 or below and just hit a heavy hitter like a bell on E's. You THINK it was OP back then but thats because the mobs health was so low, now its a different story thanks to the MP system. I even stated if 1500% was too much maybe 1000% because in its current form its next to useless. But your ok with that since you dont want anything to compare to your brobarians ability to literally walk through mobs and kill everything in your wake.

As for the risk, you must have never used it because there definitely is a risk in launching into a pack of mobs if timed wrong. Unlike RLTW and WW where you can keep running nonstop and have zero collision detection TOC didnt generate discipline lol if you ran out you got stuck you were toast. You must have not played DH then to know.

As for caltrops having it proc reduced to zero, now that was waaaaay overnerfed, if thats the case why isnt RLTW nerfed to zero proc? Serves the same utility as a defensive skill that shouldnt be used offensively according to you. Its the lifeline to barbs "tanking everything" and WOTB. To say caltrops, TOC or nether tentacles is broken is a joke compared to the other broken skills barbs and wiz have. So perma 100% CC HOTA spam isnt broken? WOTB trive on chaos perma isnt broken? If those arnt broken then neither are the nerfed DH skills in the new meta game. Maybe they were at the time but the game has changed.

As for blizzard nerfing barbs or monks down, you and i all KNOW that will never happen. Barbs should have been nerfed ages ago but it will never happen, how that is justification to come in here and keep another class down is beyond me. What i think your trying to say is no dont buff DH's not truly at least. Buff them a little bit but dont let them come near to the level of barbs because i want to remain king of the hill and keep everyone else down with my elitism. Thats what i hear from over 80% of the barb posts and its pathetic.
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04/15/2013 11:18 AMPosted by METATRON
What i find fascinating is that a barb main would come in here


you had to check dont you? but you are better than your predecessor - he wasnt able to figure that EU part. have you checked my paragons? my WD is higher than barb. have you checked my skills? do you see there ANY of overpowered skills/runes you rave so much? or rather you see runes used by 5% of population? or checked my weapon - rather non-standard isnt it?

kid, please. I play barb (like other 4 classes) and played barb when they were considered THE WORST class. yes, at the same time that DH raped act2/3 inferno and tele/fracture wizz rampaged with immortality exploit. i dont switch classes to 'go with the flow' I play for fun and challenge. i'm old enough to not worry about 'economy' in this game'. i have enough gold, i have several gg items that I HAVENT SOLD just because i didnt want/need to. so please, calm down.

no, i do not think rltw or wotb:toc are ok. whats more - in every f.. possible place i say that thrive on chaos HAS TO GO. same as speed bonus on RLTW (let it still spawn tornados, but with 90% speed, voila - problem solved). so please..

as to your 'TOC were ok' - no, they werent. They were in the same league as doublenado barbs. Extreme utility with extreme damage and no cost (legacy nat). Risk? rather skill - if you were ANY good - you were golden. If you couldnt count the disc cost - it was stupidity not risk that have killed you. gearing for extreme glasscannon with like 150AR was a factor too..

Nether tentacles - in these days - were a reason DH could @@!##@%# content that was higher than their gear level. that had to go. these were OP before people discovered ww..

btw2 - please read last sentence of my post, i think you were so busy checking my profile that you havent read it to the end

btw3 - dont read into 'hours played' too much - i had surgery early march and since then there were weeks when d3 was up all the time. these 24h a day do add up so please, dont guess my 'main' based on that. if you base your opinion on diabloprogress - sorry, havent updated in months but here you are: http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/sidtherat-2330/hero/13382217 (my barbie)

you havent convinced me. you prefer to have to OP classes (DH to be on the same level of OPness as barb). id like them both be on similar level as other classes - so nerf barb, buff dh (but bringing broken skills will not do)
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@SidTheRat

Lets put things into perspective.

Lets look at the Nerfs to Barbs offensive skills (virtually none)
Lets look at Nerfs to Barbs Defensive skills (again don't see any).

Over and over and over if you actually play the class you will understand we have the lowest eDPS out there of all the classes.

Yet of you look what has been nerfed .. they are pretty much all defensive skills to aid in our survivability.

So not only are we the weakest from a damage perspective compared to other classes with even 1/2 of the DPS we have.... but we are also the most vulnerable and squishy of all the classes.

That is only but a recipe for disaster.

If you have been playing since day 1 .. and had been playing a DH from day 1 you would realize they nerfed DH skills multiple times before nerfing the game. The only "offensive" skill they really nerfed or "corrected" as they put it was NT. They said it shouldn't hit a target more than once. In any event most of the rest were defensive skills they nerfed. Vault, SS, Caltrops... Sentries (No longer Crit and can consider this either defensive and offensive based on rune selection)... and so the list goes on and on.

So they nerfed us down...... buffed other classes.. then nerfed the game... then introduced MPs... then buffed other classes.... and where are we... still at the bottom.
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What i find fascinating is that a barb main would come in here


you had to check dont you? but you are better than your predecessor - he wasnt able to figure that EU part. have you checked my paragons? my WD is higher than barb. have you checked my skills? do you see there ANY of overpowered skills/runes you rave so much? or rather you see runes used by 5% of population? or checked my weapon - rather non-standard isnt it?

kid, please. I play barb (like other 4 classes) and played barb when they were considered THE WORST class. yes, at the same time that DH raped act2/3 inferno and tele/fracture wizz rampaged with immortality exploit. i dont switch classes to 'go with the flow' I play for fun and challenge. i'm old enough to not worry about 'economy' in this game'. i have enough gold, i have several gg items that I HAVENT SOLD just because i didnt want/need to. so please, calm down.

no, i do not think rltw or wotb:toc are ok. whats more - in every f.. possible place i say that thrive on chaos HAS TO GO. same as speed bonus on RLTW (let it still spawn tornados, but with 90% speed, voila - problem solved). so please..

as to your 'TOC were ok' - no, they werent. They were in the same league as doublenado barbs. Extreme utility with extreme damage and no cost (legacy nat). Risk? rather skill - if you were ANY good - you were golden. If you couldnt count the disc cost - it was stupidity not risk that have killed you. gearing for extreme glasscannon with like 150AR was a factor too..

Nether tentacles - in these days - were a reason DH could @@!##@%# content that was higher than their gear level. that had to go. these were OP before people discovered ww..

btw2 - please read last sentence of my post, i think you were so busy checking my profile that you havent read it to the end

btw3 - dont read into 'hours played' too much - i had surgery early march and since then there were weeks when d3 was up all the time. these 24h a day do add up so please, dont guess my 'main' based on that. if you base your opinion on diabloprogress - sorry, havent updated in months but here you are: http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/sidtherat-2330/hero/13382217 (my barbie)

you havent convinced me. you prefer to have to OP classes (DH to be on the same level of OPness as barb). id like them both be on similar level as other classes - so nerf barb, buff dh (but bringing broken skills will not do)


thanks for not addressing everything else i said... lol like i said you and i both know barbs will never be nerfed. You might be one of the very few barbs ive ever seen admit they are OP. Now if blizzard actually did something i would agree we dont need these types of extreme buffs but like i said look what happened. We lost our buffs everyone else kept their broken builds. Will blizzard change this? of course not because the crying from the barbs and cm wiz will never end, they complain to us to ask for buffs to bring us to their level. This thread is a bring DH back up to league because of our countless nerfs. Not that hard to understand guy. I would rather DH have an option to be somewhat OP (still nowhere near the level of barbs or CMwiz) than have them all quit the class or the game because blizzard is willingly letting other classes maintain their broken state and doing nothing to help this class.

Even with all the unnerfed skills everyone knows we wont compare to barbs or cmwiz in their efficiency in say mp10. thats very easy to see, will it help? Sure will, is it the final answer? hell no i even said it myself in the opening post. You can feel free to say no i dont want classes to be OP that the game is too easy etc etc but the facts are there and blizzard will not nerf anyone, especially barbs after all the crying. Dont you think the DH community has tried that route for months now? We got stone walled every time so now we beggng for the buff route and even then people still complain.
Edited by METATRON#1945 on 4/15/2013 1:41 PM PDT
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