Diablo® III

Un-Nerfing The Nerfed Demon Hunter Skills

04/15/2013 01:32 PMPosted by BubbaGump
Over and over and over if you actually play the class you will understand we have the lowest eDPS out there of all the classes.


please, point me to a place when i said it is otherwise. i know that, i would gladly accept buffs (i even shared my ideas around here on how to improve DH effectiveness)

BUT i will never agree to fixing this class by breaking it. bringing back two most retarded skills in DH history (pre nerf ToC and NT) is a way for disaster. 99% players using these two skills? you bet.

much more realistic (and fun) are buffs to chakrams, impale, cluster arrow or into hatred regen/pool size. if they buff impale, cluster and chackram along the rapid fire lines - DH will not need anything more.
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Over and over and over if you actually play the class you will understand we have the lowest eDPS out there of all the classes.


please, point me to a place when i said it is otherwise. i know that, i would gladly accept buffs (i even shared my ideas around here on how to improve DH effectiveness)

BUT i will never agree to fixing this class by breaking it. bringing back two most retarded skills in DH history (pre nerf ToC and NT) is a way for disaster. 99% players using these two skills? you bet.

much more realistic (and fun) are buffs to chakrams, impale, cluster arrow or into hatred regen/pool size. if they buff impale, cluster and chackram along the rapid fire lines - DH will not need anything more.


not everyone used TOC then not everyone will if its great again. Also i said from the start its not the end all answer, if say cluster arrows was competitive with NT in a buffed state say 800^ LFB then its a tough decision isnt it? all im saying is bring these skills out from the useless isle because as it currently stands when blizzard nerfed them they didn't slightly nerf them. They destroyed them and you and i both know it. We honestly don't know how it would play out in the current game, the game was a completely different monster back when those skills got nerfed, it was pre MP's which is one of the major things that destroyed this class. It destroyed ranged fighting and the nuke an enemy down before it gets to you game play DH's had. It allowed melee to just stack offense and little defense because all that really increased was monster HP and very little damage. If it would have scaled up like old inferno most of this wouldn't be a problem but what happened is the MP system didn't scale damage so ranged fighting became useless.

The game has changed and these skills deserve to become competitive again, wether they are OP or not who knows we cant say for sure yet. Keep in mind i said COMPETITIVE, as in a viable option. If 1500% TOC is still too much then bring it down a notch to 1000% or whatever but 300% is pathetic and useless currently. Thats what i mean by unnerfing. bringing them up to be worthwhile and not mostly useless like they currently are.
Edited by METATRON#1945 on 4/15/2013 1:49 PM PDT
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04/15/2013 01:46 PMPosted by METATRON
not everyone used TOC then


this required full nat set (people werent that smart back then to use nightstalker + cluster). i envy your set btw.

04/15/2013 01:46 PMPosted by METATRON
If 1500% TOC is still too much then bring it down a notch to 1000% or whatever but 300% is pathetic and useless currently.


no, ToC now is not useless. Vault is a movement speed skill first. damage - second (and only two runes plus stun one). ToC 300% damage with AoE is not kill-em-all skill (and this is good). it provides added damage on top of already powerful and very very cost-effective skill. I use Vault:ToC just because it so happen that my playstyle (RoV) requires closing in to mobs and getting out. if done right it is AOE 600%dmg EXTRA . making utlity skill deal serious damage means a) noone will EVER use other runes b) RLTW will have a brother

as on your other points. you correctly pinpoint the issue with nerfed monster damage. it dumbed down this game and made some seriously bad ideas possible..

act2 pre-first-nerf was a memorable experience but it was because of that s.. gear we had then. with current drop rates etc we could as well return to healt/damage numbers from release version (except enrage timers and elite healing - dieing at the end of the map and walking all the way to the pack to see it enrage on you was not fun)
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ToC Im inpartial about, it seemed like a hack back then. I would advocate 3 sec SS with 4 sec cool down.

I think we deserve a mechanism to reliably generate/harvest discipline and hatred. Nightstalker is a bit lame imo. I would rather get a steady stream over time.

I like the system on monks, its a big pool, and its also reliable. There are also skills that regen on crit, for a fixed amount.

How about increasing disc pool to 100, and increasing costs of skills? I.e. smoke screen would be 25 disc. Then we would get a natural 3 disc per second (to compensate for lack of regen on other items. I.e. monks SoJ does regen, as well as helm, weaps, etc), and add some others on top, like brooding would add a regen amount, some legendaries add more, leg nats as well. At this point leg nats is a 200% disc regen increase. It generates about 10% of total pool (1+2 = 3, 3/30 = 10%), whereas under normal regen its 3% of total pool (1/30). Nightstalker would get a fixed regen per crit, 2, and that's it.

Also fix useless passives nobody uses them because they lack use:

Brooding
Thrill of the Hunt
Hot Pursuit
Grenadier
Sharp Shooter (could be much more useful, like a crit% buff per every 5 hatred, up to 24%)
Numbing Traps - put a "marker" on debuffed mobs. I would dare say that we could add reflect dmg to debuff...
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Oh, can we get a hatred to disc conversion?

Also improved CC, like freeze arrow freezing mobs?
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Nether Tentacles - Return the multi hitting of nether tentacles

Every other attack would become useless, except possibly in some low mp speed builds. Why would making this specific skill op be a good idea? Why not increase the damage of CA to 1200%, or Multi Shot to 500% instead? Perhaps give shoking gas 2000% damage and 30y aoe. Reintroducing something just because it was bugged at one point is a terrible way to balance a game.


tell me, how EXACTLY is that different than, say, Archon?
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bump because now the news is coming in from many trying RF in PTR and it looks great in numbers but its nowhere near competitive in game. Had a feeling this would happen and to be honest it doesn't surprise me since thats how the class is, great on paper not so great when actually used.

I have a feeling blizz is just going to bump up a few skills and call it day and something tells me that will still leave is far behind because we truly are that far behind currently that its going to take some astronomical buffs and changes for us to even compete.

edit turns out its a bug and isnt doing the proper new buffed damage so theres still hope.. we shall see
Edited by METATRON#1945 on 4/16/2013 12:16 PM PDT
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I would say un-nerfing ss as well reason being compare to barbs wotb is isn't really that op
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I agree OP. In higher MP, like we all strive to play, the issues these nerfs were for for no longer exist.
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Okay....what are the chances that Blizzard will read this thread of even be bothered about DH?

I really doubt they care... after all, Barbarian is now the top of the food chain and that's all Diablo is about. Barbarian as the best class, ta dahhh~~~~~
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+1
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agreed
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Nether Tentacles - Return the multi hitting of nether tentacles


Smoke Screen
- Return the 3 second SS with the current cooldown


I would immediately drop Shadow power.. The way I always dealt with reflect damage elites was smokescreen (So I wouldn't get that much damage done back at me) Plus the multi-ticking, lifestealing nether tentacles. This was a pretty great combo. Smokescreen (at 3 seconds) and with enough disc regen, far exceeds shadow power's greatness (imo); and the nether was an incredibly powerful skill.

PS monks have a smokescreen, serenity which lasts 3-4 seconds..

If they unerf these two I will definitely be trying them out!
(Funny because I was just in game thinking about these two skills, I hop on the forum and BOOM, theres a post on it)
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I would really like to see ball Lightning buffed. Firing through mobs with the passive Night Stalker skill is a great way to refill Discipline so you can use Shadow Power more.

My DH does 300k DPS but doesn't do anywhere near the damage of my 150k DPS monk.

I am migrating over to the monk because the DH just doesn't seem to do the damage.
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Awesome post, but unfortunately due to a few ways they changed the game and the developers general philosophies probably won't get anything.

Cowtraps- needs a really small proc rate due to being able to have 5 out at once. Would a decrease in amount of traps help balance a proc rate? Probably. But then what else needs to be changed to account? More dps per trap? Longer duration? Slippery slope, but it SHOULD have a proc rate.

Trail of cinders - 1500% would make it to where this was the only and most effective way to kill stuff. Put on your 4 piece legacy nats, double marquise ruby a 1300dps manti, put on sharpshooter(it bugs with vault if you don't attack) and lolvaultkill everything at ludicrous speeds.

I think 500-750 is reasonable, but any more than that and it becomes far too auto-slot BIS dps ability.

Nether tentacles - oooohhhhh man I miss this one, I believe it was nerfed at te same time as attack speed, which was really the double whammy. Back when you could fairly easily gear 3-4 aps, and this hit 4 times, it was huge. The LS really didn't matter because back then, DHs were just getting one shot (3s smokescreen). Well in today's game, where health pools are massive but monster damage is way down, this skill would be a great option with multi-hit. 4 on one target all at 155% each? Nah probably a bit too powerful. 3? Probably better. This skill should definitely hit at least twice. Definitely not once.

Smokescreen agreed. So agreed.

All in all I dont disagree at all, playing a little devils advocate while trying to think within the context of the changes, the skills needed a change as they were literally the only ones being used and got way undergeared DHs through a much more difficult inferno.
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Bump, just because we have the gold dupe fiasco doesn't mean we should forget about the DH issues that are still lingering for another patch while we wait in hopes that now 1.09 will bring some change.

1.08 helped rapid fire but its nowhere near enough but at least a step in the right direction.

Probably will be months before we get said buffs so its time to keep pushing ideas forward in the meantime.
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RF buff should have gone in when Echoing blast was created...

i'm sure chakram will get something mmm.... maybe in 5 months?

.initial target takes 250% weapon, subsequent targets take 150%.
/bluugggggh
Edited by zoid#1554 on 5/9/2013 12:24 AM PDT
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I would like to see something done about the DH skills and Metatron has pointed out some areas needing attention.

I thought that Blizzard was supporting a varied class build, but wherever you look there seems to be only one build which is dominant over all others.

Currently the DH class has slipped behind the others in effective DPS and this should be immediately addressed. The RF buff is heading in the right direction, but seems to again foster only one particular build.

I wonder how the devs arrive at their buffs for the next patch ? It appears they are studying graphs and figures and then come up with a new buff or nerf for the next patch release.

Do they actually play the game? Do they have any real heros in Diablo3 which can be looked at ?

I really wonder.
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Old caltrops proc was one of the most interesting things in the game. Really D2 feel to it. No idea why they got rid of that.

Trail of Cinders - Yes this needs to go back. DH has a serious lack of offensive skill choices due to hatred limitations. This skill once allowed you read the situation of any battle and express your true understanding of it skillfully by making a risky maneuver that could pay off bigtime. Now it's just a big joke.

Smoke Screen - This skill feels completely awful right now (not including PVP). Anyone who just started the game around 1.0.7 has no idea what this skill can even be used for. A 1 second invisiblity for that cost is useless for most of the game and people pretty much write it off. Compared to what other classes can do now, this skill is just disappointing.
Edited by Kil#1483 on 5/9/2013 6:23 AM PDT
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Old caltrops proc was one of the most interesting things in the game. Really D2 feel to it. No idea why they got rid of that.

Trail of Cinders - Yes this needs to go back. DH has a serious lack of offensive skill choices due to hatred limitations. This skill once allowed you read the situation of any battle and express your true understanding of it skillfully by making a risky maneuver that could pay off bigtime. Now it's just a big joke.

Smoke Screen - This skill feels completely awful right now (not including PVP). Anyone who just started the game around 1.0.7 has no idea what this skill can even be used for. A 1 second invisiblity for that cost is useless for most of the game and people pretty much write it off. Compared to what other classes can do now, this skill is just disappointing.


agreed
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