Diablo® III

PTR is an Act 3 nerf

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Just in case you may have missed it, here's Wyatt's explanation for why Tormented Stingers and Stygian Crawlers (scorpions) had their experience nerfed:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Diablo/comments/1bjorz/developer_journal_multiplayer_improvements/c97i0sm

Scorpions have had their XP reduced. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. We looked and considered buffing everything else instead, but in light of the multiplayer buffs we were already providing, we didn't want to inflate the game as a whole even further.

Specifically, Scorpions have had their XP reduced by 75%. That probably sounds like a lot at an emotional level, because it's never fun to have a source of XP reduced by that much, but I hope some can agree if you think about it - a mallet lord is worth 1.5x the xp a scorpion is. And that's not just mallet lords, most of the monsters in the game are within a certain reasonable ratio of one another and the scorpions were a very obvious outlier.


Also, just reiterating what others have said, Nephalem Valor stacks are now multiplicative, not additive. The simple calculation is: [ 100%(base) + bonus from MP + helm ruby + ring] * [1 + Up to 0.75 from NV + Up to 0.30 for multiplayer]

To get a better feel, you might want to check out this discussion over on /r/diablo: http://www.reddit.com/r/Diablo/comments/1bz86d/nephalem_valor_stacks_are_now_multiplicative/

It just felt really strange to us to have a relatively easy monster providing as much as experience as monsters that are notably more challenging. Either way, seems like a pretty reasonable trade-off to me. You should log on to the PTR and test it out! :)
Edited by Lylirra on 4/9/2013 10:22 PM PDT
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Anything to normalize Act III is a welcomed change IMO.

It's kind of silly that I can literally watch my XP bar move while killing crawlers but nothing else.

Arreat Crater might be a little less profitable as a result, but at least you don't have to do Alkaizer runs any more to get the max XP per hour.

I really don't understand the fuss behind normalizing optimal routes. I would much rather just pick any area I want to play and play it. Optimized routes detract from the fun you could possibly have by just clearing the game normally.

Honestly, clearing a full Act is much more fun than just doing a small part of it repeatedly. Knowing that I won't be gimping myself by doing that makes it even more pleasant. The loot grind wouldn't be quite as bad if you took out any means of optimization.

Key point here... in the long run... less optimization in restricted paths will in turn equal a more productive and fulfilling gaming experience.
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Anything to normalize Act III is a welcomed change IMO.

It's kind of silly that I can literally watch my XP bar move while killing crawlers but nothing else.

Arreat Crater might be a little less profitable as a result, but at least you don't have to do Alkaizer runs any more to get the max XP per hour.

I really don't understand the fuss behind normalizing optimal routes. I would much rather just pick any area I want to play and play it. Optimized routes detract from the fun you could possibly have by just clearing the game normally.

Honestly, clearing a full Act is much more fun than just doing a small part of it repeatedly. Knowing that I won't be gimping myself by doing that makes it even more pleasant. The loot grind wouldn't be quite as bad if you took out any means of optimization.

Key point here... in the long run... less optimization in restricted paths will in turn equal a more productive and fulfilling gaming experience.


If I had to make a guess, people who do "optimal" runs are also the first ones to get bored... I can't see myself do COTA all day long, or ignoring everything but stinger... Sounds boring to me...
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You guys up at blizzard would have never noticed hadnt it been for moldran. Customer satisfaction 3/10... You guys come up with only ideas of others, aka Paragon levels: Kripparian... good going blizz.
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04/09/2013 06:21 PMPosted by DoomBringer
If I had to make a guess, people who do "optimal" runs are also the first ones to get bored... I can't see myself do COTA all day long, or ignoring everything but stinger... Sounds boring to me...

It's one of the reasons I rarely play anymore.

I'd rather clear a full act than sit and do Alkaizer runs. 5 or 6 of those in one play session and I'm ready to quit.

Meanwhile, if I do a full act clear, (Or even a full game clear as I really like to do. I like starting on Act I and continuing through Act IV) I generally have a play session that last 7 times longer and feels much more productive.

Then I look back and do some calculations... I could have made double and even triple the XP if I had spent that time doing JUST Alkaizer runs... That's the point where I look back and deem the game broken. Repeatedly clearing a small portion of the game is incredibly boring.
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If I had to make a guess, people who do "optimal" runs are also the first ones to get bored... I can't see myself do COTA all day long, or ignoring everything but stinger... Sounds boring to me...


No they dont. The reason is RMAH. optimal runs for fast p lv, fast MF, fast GF and more legandary drops....what next? sell them for upgrade or sell them for Real monty ( recover what they have spend)

I agree it is extremly boring to do infinite " optimal runs" but the rewards is fun enough! Does blizzard count this factor? i dont think so......the relation is so deep in such " simple math base" game.
Edited by MADTHUNDER2#3452 on 4/9/2013 6:39 PM PDT
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04/09/2013 06:23 PMPosted by Thunder
You guys up at blizzard would have never noticed hadnt it been for moldran. Customer satisfaction 3/10... You guys come up with only ideas of others, aka Paragon levels: Kripparian... good going blizz.


Damn us if we listen to player feedback.
Curse us if we don't.

We make changes that we believe are good for the health of the game. Sometimes, those changes are going to be nerfs, sometimes they're going to be buffs. Sometimes they're going to be the result of internal testing, and sometimes they're going to be a product of player discussion. In this case, there's both a buff and a nerf, and they come from a combination of sources. We feel the game is in a better place because of them, though, and we hope that players will agree. (If not, PTR is the best time to tell us!)

Before you criticize too much, maybe hop on the PTR and see what you think?
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04/09/2013 06:35 PMPosted by MADTHUNDER2
I agree it is extremly boring to do infinite " optimal runs" but the rewards is fun enough! Does blizzard count this factor? i dont think so......the relation is so deep in such " simple math base" game.

So the ends justify the means?

Just keep in mind the game eventually becomes less and less rewarding as you are getting considerably stronger. This isn't just happening for you, but for everyone else as well.

Pretty soon, that reward won't be justifiably worth the effort you're putting in to carry out such repetitive tasks. It's eventually going to get to the point where you're playing just so you can have fun as you have already reaped all of the rewards that you could possibly find. Once you get to that point, the only motivation to keep playing will be having some much needed variety in your playstyle.

Just something to consider as well.
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Just in case you may have missed it, here's Wyatt's explanation for why Tormented Stingers and Stygian Crawlers (scorpions) had their experience nerfed...


No, you just BS people.

Nobody likes Act4 because it's a failure, it's look and feel couldn't be further from Diablo style, the level design is a failure and mob design is a failure. Playing it is not fun and your mallet lords are not fun.

Now you use that mallet lord XP as a rotten excuse to ruin the best spot in the game where people actually like to play and you want to forcibly make them to go to Act4 just because you will spawn more mallet lords in there?

I don't care about multiplayer bonuses because most of the time I play solo and I don't care about NV stacks because there was no need to waste your time killing elites to have good XP in Arreat Crater.

So for me, you just completely destroyed Act3 and you call it an improvement. This is just ugly.
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04/09/2013 06:16 PMPosted by Drothvader
It's kind of silly that I can literally watch my XP bar move while killing crawlers but nothing else.
You're P20. Killing one Fallen gives you a bar.
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04/09/2013 06:48 PMPosted by alikim
So for me, you just completely destroyed Act3 and you call it an improvement. This is just ugly.


Thanks for your feedback! Have you gotten the opportunity to test those changes on the PTR?
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It's kind of silly that I can literally watch my XP bar move while killing crawlers but nothing else.
You're P20. Killing one Fallen gives you a bar.

It doesn't matter what level I am or what level anyone else is.

The fact that Crawlers were a significant portion of XP gain higher than everything surrounding them is what really matters.

It doesn't matter what Pargaon level you're comparing it to, the relative XP gain on ANY level was severely unbalanced.

I really should just play on a different account and delete everything on this one because clearly the only thing that really matters in any discussion is what Paragon level I am. =/
Edited by Drothvader#1215 on 4/9/2013 7:00 PM PDT
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Hey Lylirra, I hopped on to PTR and enjoyed the changes very much! However Act 4 still has a pitiful amount of Elites, will something ever be done about no one ever going to Act4? At least people have been going to Act1 for Ubers and Act2 for VoTA runs but Act4 is still the black sheep of farming.
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The scorpion xp nerf is such a minor thing. You can still get good xp in act 3 running other dense areas like keeps 2 and rakkis crossing / fields of slaughter. Plus they buffed the amount of xp from NV stacks so it should be almost as easy to reach max paragon level in a short time.
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04/09/2013 06:54 PMPosted by Drothvader
It doesn't matter what Pargaon level you're comparing it to, the relative XP gain on ANY level was severely unbalanced.
Then wouldn't it make more sense to simply make Scorpion Run XP simply on par w/ the Alkaizer as opposed to nerfing them into oblivion? I personally really don't care as it won't matter come 1.08 (Halls of Agony master race) but the idea behind the Skorpion run nerf steams my beans.
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But why nerf them at all? All you're accomplishing with the ner is forcing players to find a new optimal route. Once that new route is determined and it becomes widely known will that one be nerfed as well?

If people want to beat on scorpions all day long to get their xp then let them. That's not my cup of tea and it doesn't bother me in the slightest that others ARE doing it.

That being said, those scorpions tend to hit about as hard as the large mobs in the act so I sound the xp from them to *feel* right. The only REAL problem is that they come in LARGE packs and have little hp.

It seems to me that the obvious fix would not have been to nerf xp but to buff their hp.
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I agree it is extremly boring to do infinite " optimal runs" but the rewards is fun enough! Does blizzard count this factor? i dont think so......the relation is so deep in such " simple math base" game.

So the ends justify the means?

Just keep in mind the game eventually becomes less and less rewarding as you are getting considerably stronger. This isn't just happening for you, but for everyone else as well.

Pretty soon, that reward won't be justifiably worth the effort you're putting in to carry out such repetitive tasks. It's eventually going to get to the point where you're playing just so you can have fun as you have already reaped all of the rewards that you could possibly find. Once you get to that point, the only motivation to keep playing will be having some much needed variety in your playstyle.

Just something to consider as well.


Thats why you are not in the right way . I agree the rewards is lesser and lesser but this is the reason for optimal run. Players would like to have the bigest chance to get rewards. No matter how low it is!

Every player in game ( the rich one sit in AH only) wait a real " luck" now and hope to get rich by getting a real " good drop" ! optimal run increase the lv ing speed ( +MF + GF ) and have a highest chance to get that "good drop"

You can keep moving in slow speed and have your own fun. Let the others "good drop" de-value your drops or play boring optimal runs in high speed and hope the " good drop" still good once you find it.
Edited by MADTHUNDER2#3452 on 4/9/2013 7:05 PM PDT
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04/09/2013 06:59 PMPosted by LegitBeastin
Then wouldn't it make more sense to simply make Scorpion Run XP simply on par w/ the Alkaizer as opposed to nerfing them into oblivion? I personally really don't care as it won't matter come 1.08 (Halls of Agony master race) but the idea behind the Skorpion run nerf steams my beans.

Not really...

What makes more sense is to eliminate the need for a Scorpion / Alkaizer run altogether by normalizing all optimal farming paths.

It's much more beneficial to the player to be rewarded equally regardless of what path they wish to follow rather than forcing them into optimal routes.

The answer isn't to create more optimal routes, the answer is to normalize the entire act.

You can keep moving in slow speed and let the others "good drop" de-value your drops or play boring optimal runs in high speed and hope the " good drop" still good once you find it.

I'm not sure if this is what you said, but this is how I read what you wrote.

"If you don't play optimally like I do then too bad, you just miss out."

In reality if all routes were normalized then all players would be in the same footing. You could still do your Scorpion clears or Alkaizer routes if you wanted to, but I could also do my full act clears. If we both were to reap around the same reward then the designers have done their job well, but if you gain a signification portion of rewards more than I do, then I am forced into your playstyle.

In short, if no route was optimal then all routes would be optimal.
Edited by Drothvader#1215 on 4/9/2013 7:08 PM PDT
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Well, nobody is going to be farming XP in act 4 due to the limited areas and fewer number of elite packs...so the big question is how do ACT 2 and ACT 1 stack up now. Many people have done VotA type runs already for DE, Legendary items, etc.
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04/09/2013 07:03 PMPosted by Drothvader
Then wouldn't it make more sense to simply make Scorpion Run XP simply on par w/ the Alkaizer as opposed to nerfing them into oblivion? I personally really don't care as it won't matter come 1.08 (Halls of Agony master race) but the idea behind the Skorpion run nerf steams my beans.

Not really...

What makes more sense is to eliminate the need for a Scorpion / Alkaizer run altogether by normalizing all optimal farming paths.

It's much more beneficial to the player to be rewarded equally regardless of what path they wish to follow rather than forcing them into optimal routes.

The answer isn't to create more optimal routes, the answer is to normalize the entire act.


Why not normalize all acts to the scorpion run? As long as paragon levels only grant linear rewards, should it matter if it can be done quicker and quicker?
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