Diablo® III

Demon Hunter eDPS (effective DPS) Issue

04/08/2013 12:11 PMPosted by ddv0748da
As a DH whose DPS is over 240,000, it is impossible to kill a Goblin in mp10. However, for a BB or Monk of the same DPS, it is quite easy for them. So, this is time to buff DH's eDPS.

+1
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The way it was designed before MP levels worked perfect. Melee stayed melee and ranged stayed ranged. Ranged had more paper dps and also more epds. The sacrifice was our life. We were the fragile classes.

When MP level were created, ranged could no longer stay ranged. We could not one shot monsters, in fact it takes us 5-10 shots just for a measly scorpion. Take a look at the high MP ranged classes, CM Wizards and Bola/Spike trap DHs. Why do you think Blizzard gave the ranged classes 30% reduced damage?

The way it should be is melee does less edps but has higher defense. Ranged classes should have higher edps but weak defense. Right now melee has more defense and edps.

All we are asking is to buff us to be on par with other classes.


I wouldn't go as far to say the system was 'perfect' but it definitely had more of a kill or be killed theme. I like the current system much more where eHP actually matters but another issue has surfaced because of it. We really just need higher damage modifier %'s.
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I've recently been gearing up all my characters (one of each class) and testing solo builds for sustained eDPS against a single target, MP10 Ghom.

Each of my characters is able to get a DPS multiplier of between 7-10 against Ghom. It largely depends on the buffs and builds you're using, and whether or not you have a SoJ equipped. They all use Skorns or manticores when applicable, and they're all decently geared.

So far it's been the easiest to achieve high eDPS with my Monk, this is true. Mine has the highest DPS multiplier tested so far at around 10 with a SoJ. Builds centered around using a Won Khim Lou are deceptively strong, and builds that rely on spamming WoL are expectedly strong. They do have a lot of useful active skill buffs.

My main is a WD and his eDPS relies on being able to manage mana well enough to keep Zombie Bears up, and he competes with HotA barbs or monks only when all three bears are hitting the target.

My barb's eDPS can be achieved through either WW or HotA builds, depending on gear and skills of course.

My Wiz is cheaply geared and can manage to get a good single target eDPS multiplier when I use a high APS Chantodo's will with SNS.

My DH can do it too - http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/8480728571?page=1

While I agree that DH's paper DPS is closer to eDPS for the more popular builds, it's not as bad as the OP's video makes it look. As soon as a Monk pairs up with that DH, how much damage would he be doing? It's just harder and more expensive to gear up DHs to be competitive, but there's not much we can do about that right now.
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Stopped reading from there. No offense but WD's suck just like DH's. WD's also need buffs. We are not asking to be the OP of all classes. We are asking to be on par with other classes.


Open your mind and read on dude. I hit other points later on about the weaknesses of builds like the bell one shown in the vid. It's worthless in high mp group player games and functions as nothing more than a solo-efficiency farming build.


I have a monk. Yes you can spam WOL endless on MP10 public games. Let's just put it this way. How many times do you think you can use WOL on an elite on MP10? 5, 10, 20, 30? Times that by 925% damage.
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There are plenty of enemies that do not chase people down. As I previously mentioned the ranged kiting elites. Monsters like soul lashers, icy quillbacks, fallen shamans, sand wasps etc. These elites can take an enormous amount of time for monks and barbs to take down. If you guys want to prove your point then a video should be made against one of them. Melee vs melee the advantage SHOULD go to melee characters. Now if its melee vs kiting elites and the melee character is still faster then there is a problem.


Funny you don't even play DH. I guess we don't need to chase down elites either do we? Our spike traps and bola shots are just attracted to them? They run off our screen too, and we have to chase them down also...

The issue is simple:
Weapon damage increased from 430% to 914%
Weapon damage increased from 390% to 829%

the above monk buffs were given in 1.07

now let's give them to DH.
increase spike trap from 275% t0 800%
increase Fan of knives from 320% to 914%
Im sure everyone would be happy then right?
No one would be jealous? I'm suuuuure no other classes would complain then right? (ha)


You don't have to stay in a 10-15 yards range to do damage though do you? That would be the difference. I hope you can at least comprehend that much. BTW those buffs you keep whining about didn't come free. The most popular monk build was nerfed when they removed the snapshot that sweeping wind use to take of Blinding Flash: Faith In Light. Before you go ranting about gear swapping I'm not talking about that. They could of got rid of the gear swapping without messing with how blinding flash and sweeping wind work together. Cyclone strike was also stealth nerfed from sucking all enemies in to a limit of 8. So maybe you do get those big damage buffs but they add a cooldown to SP: Gloom. How's that sound?
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04/08/2013 12:13 PMPosted by RUNFORIT
As a DH whose DPS is over 240,000, it is impossible to kill a Goblin in mp10. However, for a BB or Monk of the same DPS, it is quite easy for them. So, this is time to buff DH's eDPS.


actualy this has more to do with gobs having INCREDIBLY short +dmg buffs timers than with eDPS

place MfD on goblin and it will dispensary in <1sec

and I repeat myself:

this DH vs Monk video is staged in a way that makes DH look A LOT worse than it is:

- sentries are crap in this scenario and they do not crit, most of DH dmg is from CD
- custom engineering WASTED: not enough hatred to spam EB, so one passive slot wasted, sentries should not be here at all
- no MfD
- no LFB
- replace bola with entangling shot/shock collar, replace custom engineering with cull the weak

I bet the difference would be A LOT different than 6s vs 22s. but it requires thinking out of the box. and this is not something popular among 'the internetters'. crying for buffs is easier. and while DH needs some love pretending that the situation is worse than it really is will SURELY make Blizz to do anything about that.. surely.

so go change your builds, learn to shutter-step to deal dmg on the move.

btw what +skill bonuses that gear has? monk bonuses by any chance?
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Weapon damage increased from 430% to 914%
Weapon damage increased from 390% to 829%

the above monk buffs were given in 1.07

now let's give them to DH.
increase spike trap from 275% t0 800%
increase Fan of knives from 320% to 914%
Im sure everyone would be happy then right?
No one would be jealous? I'm suuuuure no other classes would complain then right? (ha)
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Logged in just to "like" the OP post.

Thank you for raising awareness.
Hopefully we get a blue to respond.
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while i agree with the message you are trying to put across there are few points that need to be taken into consideration:

- skorn with marq ruby means INSANE crits when they happen. and from what I saw, they DID happen. outcome could have been A BIT different if you had a string of non-crit bells

- burst damage was possible due to 250 spirit available at the start of the fight. in most cases this does not look that good (but it is possible when farming this area only)

- sentries in this spot.. not a great idea, trash mobs ate most of the damage - LFB might be a better choice. and sentries dont crit so their input is pretty minimal in this case esp that you get their full dps after 18 secs minimum.

- marked for death. overrawe is crazy *1.5 multiplier so no surprise that the damage done by WoL crits is so sick

- custom engineering. are you sure that you can take advantage of that? probably you can but i cant see your gear so im not sure. if not this is a wasted slot.

- gloom.. instead of +damage passive. change to MFD

- what +skills bonuses you had on your gear and were they aligned with skills you used?

entangling shot/shock collar + cull the weak instead of bola/custom engineering might have improved the time a bit, also change sentries to LFB

result will still disappoint but the difference will not be that great. part of low DH multiplier is that there are rarely more than 2 sources of damage going at the same time with DHs compared to like 4-5 in case of your monk

btw besides the obvious DH weakness the OP empowered wave is much to obvious. blizz has to nerf that to like 60 spirit instead of 40. this is crazy op in current state.. :/


Monk burst like that is only possible with max spirit like that, especially since it was combo'ed with blind/overawe. However, Monk's fill spirit very fast with quickening (or rising tide). Barbs fill fury very fast with Into the Fray. DH have no way to fill hatred that fast, aside from prep-punishment (which uses too much disc for a non-legacy DH).

You're right on sentries, this wasn't a good spot for them. I pretty much just picked a fairly standard farming spec and went with it. MFD would have been faster for this specific situation. CE was for extra traps and extra sentry, though i guess sentry wasn't the biggest help here.

Gloom was basically needed so I don't die

I had bola shot + 28% elite SoJ and bola shot quiver. Spike trap SoJ would have been better, and spike trap Nat's embrace would also have been better. Didn't want to buy 2 items to record this, so I used what I had.

-----

Situation wise I went with Bola stun rune because it's a good lock to make sure elites stand in traps in real situations when farming. So while my elite didn't move at all in the video (basically already best case scenario), having the stun would have been useful if I was in an open area where elites actually run around. From what I've been told on the DH forums, Shock Collar builds work better with Calamity, which I didn't have one for testing.

In terms of the monk's front end damage, I'm pretty much using a pretty standard DE farming build, front-loaded with Overawe+Faith in the Light. The reason it's so good here is the same reason it's so good for DE farming. Pretty much why Monks can farm 40+ DE/hour since we just TR up to elites and kill them in like 5 seconds.

Both classes could have modifications for higher damage output in this specific situation, though I figured using builds viable for actual farming would make a better example.
Edited by TianZi#1634 on 4/8/2013 12:44 PM PDT
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Open your mind and read on dude. I hit other points later on about the weaknesses of builds like the bell one shown in the vid. It's worthless in high mp group player games and functions as nothing more than a solo-efficiency farming build.


I have a monk. Yes you can spam WOL endless on MP10 public games. Let's just put it this way. How many times do you think you can use WOL on an elite on MP10? 5, 10, 20, 30? Times that by 925% damage.


Not with a TR set-up, you're crazy dude. I have a Monk as well and I've explored the different Bell builds also. Maybe you're referring to like a melee/bell spam build that takes advantage of quickening or infused with light? Even then, it's not like you're just dropping bell after bell after bell and never ever stopping to hit the target to regen spirit.
Edited by RPRNoNsum#1561 on 4/8/2013 12:29 PM PDT
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while i agree with the message you are trying to put across there are few points that need to be taken into consideration:

- skorn with marq ruby means INSANE crits when they happen. and from what I saw, they DID happen. outcome could have been A BIT different if you had a string of non-crit bells

- burst damage was possible due to 250 spirit available at the start of the fight. in most cases this does not look that good (but it is possible when farming this area only)

- sentries in this spot.. not a great idea, trash mobs ate most of the damage - LFB might be a better choice. and sentries dont crit so their input is pretty minimal in this case esp that you get their full dps after 18 secs minimum.

- marked for death. overrawe is crazy *1.5 multiplier so no surprise that the damage done by WoL crits is so sick

- custom engineering. are you sure that you can take advantage of that? probably you can but i cant see your gear so im not sure. if not this is a wasted slot.

- gloom.. instead of +damage passive. change to MFD

- what +skills bonuses you had on your gear and were they aligned with skills you used?

entangling shot/shock collar + cull the weak instead of bola/custom engineering might have improved the time a bit, also change sentries to LFB

result will still disappoint but the difference will not be that great. part of low DH multiplier is that there are rarely more than 2 sources of damage going at the same time with DHs compared to like 4-5 in case of your monk

btw besides the obvious DH weakness the OP empowered wave is much to obvious. blizz has to nerf that to like 60 spirit instead of 40. this is crazy op in current state.. :/


Monk burst like that is only possible with max spirit like that, especially since it was combo'ed with blind/overawe. However, Monk's fill spirit very fast with quickening (or rising tide). Barbs fill fury very fast with Into the Fray. DH have no way to fill hatred that fast, aside from prep-punishment (which uses too much disc for a non-legacy DH).

You're right on sentries, this wasn't a good spot for them. I pretty much just picked a fairly standard farming spec and went with it. MFD would have been faster for this specific situation. CE was for extra traps and extra sentry, though i guess sentry wasn't the biggest help here.

Gloom was basically needed so I don't die

I had bola shot + 28% elite SoJ and bola shot quiver. Spike trap SoJ would have been better, and spike trap Nat's embrace would also have been better (though i would lose 2p inna's bonus). Didn't want to buy 2 items to record this, so I used what I had.

-----

Situation wise I went with Bola stun rune because it's a good lock to make sure elites stand in traps in real situations when farming. So while my elite didn't move at all in the video (basically already best case scenario), having the stun would have been useful if I was in an open area where elites actually run around. From what I've been told on the DH forums, Shock Collar builds work better with Calamity, which I didn't have one for testing.

In terms of the monk's front end damage, I'm pretty much using a pretty standard DE farming build, front-loaded with Overawe+Faith in the Light. The reason it's so good here is the same reason it's so good for DE farming. Pretty much why Monks can farm 40+ DE/hour since we just TR up to elites and kill them in like 5 seconds.

Both classes could have modifications for higher damage output in this specific situation, though I figured using builds viable for actual farming would make a better example.


+1000000
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I've recently been gearing up all my characters (one of each class) and testing solo builds for sustained eDPS against a single target, MP10 Ghom.

Each of my characters is able to get a DPS multiplier of between 7-10 against Ghom. It largely depends on the buffs and builds you're using, and whether or not you have a SoJ equipped. They all use Skorns or manticores when applicable, and they're all decently geared.

So far it's been the easiest to achieve high eDPS with my Monk, this is true. Mine has the highest DPS multiplier tested so far at around 10 with a SoJ. Builds centered around using a Won Khim Lou are deceptively strong, and builds that rely on spamming WoL are expectedly strong. They do have a lot of useful active skill buffs.

My main is a WD and his eDPS relies on being able to manage mana well enough to keep Zombie Bears up, and he competes with HotA barbs or monks only when all three bears are hitting the target.

My barb's eDPS can be achieved through either WW or HotA builds, depending on gear and skills of course.

My Wiz is cheaply geared and can manage to get a good single target eDPS multiplier when I use a high APS Chantodo's will with SNS.

My DH can do it too - http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/8480728571?page=1

While I agree that DH's paper DPS is closer to eDPS for the more popular builds, it's not as bad as the OP's video makes it look. As soon as a Monk pairs up with that DH, how much damage would he be doing? It's just harder and more expensive to gear up DHs to be competitive, but there's not much we can do about that right now.


What MP levels were you on? Would you still be using those skills on let's say MP10 especially solo? I understand multipliers but against a single target you can adjust your skills to all offense and it may not be ideal for regular farming. I've done the same test before just to see who's edps would be greater. Problem is that other classes can keep their normal builds and do great. With a DH we have to take off all our defensive and mobility skills just to do 2/3 of what other classes can do edps wise.
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Each of my characters is able to get a DPS multiplier of between 7-10 against Ghom. It largely depends on the buffs and builds you're using, and whether or not you have a SoJ equipped. They all use Skorns or manticores when applicable, and they're all decently geared.


One of the issues with the Ghom test is that Ghom doesn't move much, and has a big enough hit box to get hit by all grenades, which inflated DH eDPS a lot. Even then, DH still falls short of other classes.
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04/08/2013 12:27 PMPosted by TianZi
Barbs fill fury very fast with Into the Fray. DH have no way to fill hatred that fast, aside from prep-punishment (which uses too much disc for a non-legacy DH).


i think that this is THE KEY issue with DH that - if fixed - would make DH a much more powerful class as a whole. even tho each hatred generator has +hatred rune it is still not enough. some sort of +hatred regen runes (like guardian turrent but with +hatred/s) or more disc->hatred? currently it is easier to regain disc (cluster grenades+veng) than to regain hatred.

maybe make it so that each regained disc point also grants hatred point? with hatred input twice as big several mid-dmg spenders could be semi-spammed or outright spammed (im looking at you impale).

and yeah, entangling shot works NOT with manticore.. :/ my DH is self found so tried that with my gear - and while it has its ups, it needs faster weapon..
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I have a monk. Yes you can spam WOL endless on MP10 public games. Let's just put it this way. How many times do you think you can use WOL on an elite on MP10? 5, 10, 20, 30? Times that by 925% damage.


Not with a TR set-up, you're crazy dude. I have a Monk as well and I've explored the different Bell builds also. Maybe you're referring to like a melee/bell spam build that takes advantage of quickening or infused with light? Even then, it's not like you're just dropping bell after bell after bell and never ever stopping to hit the target to regen spirit.


My definition of spamming is different from yours. I'm guessing you mean just using WOL only. The way I do it is hold down my left click which is my FOT. Then I rapidly hit my WOL button. In between each WOL I hopefully hit them with my FOT. This will rebuild spirit pretty fast and I can use WOL pretty fast.

This is a video I made of my TR monk doing MP10. I left every skill that I would use for MP0-1 farming. Imagine if I used Sweeping Wind/Inner Storm and Mantra of Healing/Circular Breathing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SZIGiUuF5Y
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I never realy thught that there was such a huge difrence. I was thinking more like ellite kill monk 15s and DH 20, but the video blows my mind with the difrences in dps.
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Because solo DHs are not meant for mp10 :p
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+1000
i used to be a DH then switched to monk afterwards. bliz needs to lessen the hatred cost of those great nukes like cluster bombs, loaded for bear and buff its DPS
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04/08/2013 12:50 PMPosted by DrakeMunchy
Because solo DHs are not meant for mp10 :p


or public :p
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http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNTI1NjgzODA4.html

Watch this video: World #1 DH farming Vault of the Assassin MP10

made by Kamikaze#6577 (World #1 Heroscore in all classes, #1 unbuffed dps in all classes) He had about 550k unbuffed dps when he recorded this video.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/kamikaze-6577/hero/19350098

He has all end game gears which worth probably more than $20k, and it takes him 8 minutes to clear the MP10 VotA.

For a barb or a monk, It takes no more than 6-7 minutes. As long as you are decent geared. (spend $250 I am sure you can make it)
For example, here are some videos for a Skorn rend Barb, clearing VotA MP10 within 5 minutes.
http://bbs.d.163.com/thread-172505244-1-1.html
If it takes similar effort and money to get the same ranking gear, and one specific class is much less efficient than others, it is NOT BALANCED.

This is the eDPS issue, and it will affect the RMAH.

Blz, if you buff DH, more people will gear up a DH and it is good for your RMAH....
Edited by RVN#1948 on 4/8/2013 1:44 PM PDT
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