Diablo® III

Demon Hunter eDPS (effective DPS) Issue

Don't let this thread die. Still pissed off that I gotta play my monk to farm anything efficiently. Dh is my favorite class but I'm sick of having good gear and being breezed by people in half the gear.

I'm waiting.....

Oh and.... inb4 800% weapon damage Monk bellz. Lolz that was smart.


agreed.

i've quit playing DH now until blizz does something.

Had 300k dps with only archery and my monk with half that paper dps MELTS MP10 compared to my DH. its a damn joke right now.

no reason to play this class besides for "fun"

farming effeciently is not what DHs are meant for, period
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06/01/2013 02:13 AMPosted by Uberfuchs
Sometimes I feel the devs only really focused on one class (Barbarian) before the game release.


Not really. Barbs needed a shield to progress into inferno act 3. At that time, the DH was the only char that could do that with some ease. Result: Barb got buffed, DH got nerfed. And guess what? The Barb is the favorite char of Jay Wilson. Now make your conclusions.
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Hello everybody, I'm new wih the DH and I¡d like to know how does it heals as in the video?

Thank you very much!
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Hello everybody, I'm new wih the DH and I¡d like to know how does it heals as in the video?

Thank you very much!


heal? you might be referring to demon hunter spell called shadow power with the rune gloom, which gives you life in return for the damage you do.

Don't let this thread die. Still pissed off that I gotta play my monk to farm anything efficiently. Dh is my favorite class but I'm sick of having good gear and being breezed by people in half the gear.

I'm waiting.....

Oh and.... inb4 800% weapon damage Monk bellz. Lolz that was smart.


agreed.

i've quit playing DH now until blizz does something.

Had 300k dps with only archery and my monk with half that paper dps MELTS MP10 compared to my DH. its a damn joke right now.

no reason to play this class besides for "fun"

farming effeciently is not what DHs are meant for, period


since travis day said demon hunter's in good spot, future looking rather dark for the hunter. How he cannot understand the class lacks so much eDPS compared to other classes is beyond me.

So many players posted so much proof of this. I seriously doubt much what was posted in this section he didn't read or none ever gets forwarded to the developers.
Their is no excuse for developer to say something like that, he basically showed how out of touch he is with the demon hunter community completely.
its also insulting to those many who done the research to prove this eDPS issue and its being ignored.
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I already made the switch. To a different game. Star Wars went F2P, why not give it a try? ;-) lemme know if you guys decide to get online, Jedi Covenant server!
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So many players posted so much proof of this. I seriously doubt much what was posted in this section he didn't read or none ever gets forwarded to the developers.
Their is no excuse for developer to say something like that, he basically showed how out of touch he is with the demon hunter community completely.
its also insulting to those many who done the research to prove this eDPS issue and its being ignored.


I believe he made a snicker and laughed off the word eDPS. Travis Day is a donkey's !@#..
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If you think it would help please also provide input in this thread. http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/9245624525?page=1#3
Keep it professional and please do not turn it into an pissing contest or another thread to bash a lead dev. There is most likely a reason to why blues never have input in your thread. 85 pages and nothing said in other words.

A dev may have poked his/her head in here but probably didnt find it a good read. Example, the guy above my bashing Travis Day and all the Jay Wilson bashing prior to that.
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If you think it would help please also provide input in this thread. http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/9245624525?page=1#3
Keep it professional and please do not turn it into an pissing contest or another thread to bash a lead dev. There is most likely a reason to why blues never have input in your thread. 85 pages and nothing said in other words.

A dev may have poked his/her head in here but probably didnt find it a good read. Example, the guy above my bashing Travis Day and all the Jay Wilson bashing prior to that.


They may not have said anything in here, but they did feel like lifting the post limit on the thread... may not be much, but it is something.
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Bump!
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What a dh need is a major chakram buff.

All the other classes run cookie cutter builds that exeplify revolving spin patterns.

Dhs are left with the sck balls shlt skills.

Edit: and yea before you think strafe homing/nades eb or nonsense like that; try dtww, cmww, cyclone, CoB, after that come back again to this pos skills strafe/eb/bola and tell me what u think, mp10 of course.
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06/09/2013 06:46 PMPosted by Decko
What a dh need is a major chakram buff


What the DH needs is for the DEVs to sit down and evaluate roll the DH plays. Just like they did with the Monk in 1.07.

Here is what needs to be looked at:

DH have used primary attack skills like bola / hungering arrow / grenades / evasive fire / entangling shot in their builds for the most part except a few exceptions like RF builds, strafe etc.. For burst damage we toss in a few spike traps and chakram and ball lightning or cluster arrow and so on ..

versus

other classes that generates resource with their resource spenders. Thus eliminating the need to use primary attacks at all. Then they can also buff those attacks and use 3 resource spenders at the same time..

Strafe is a prime example of this. DH has resource restrictions and cool downs that keep this from being OP. Strafe can't be buff to the point it can plow down MP10.

versus

Wiz / Barb/ WD / Monk builds that can eliminate cool downs / excessive resource regen ( 120 arcane power second or more / crit proc to fury is insane ) / buff and syncronize skills to more than triple the intended damage..

In closing, DH is the only class playing D3 close to game design. We are the only class not broken. So now come the tough choice, let DH break the game ? And DH will break D3 like nothing else before if we get even a small buff across the board. OR nerf all the resource spenders that can generate resource also on all the other class? This will lead to a massive complain flood gate...

Sit tight and see mayhem when it happens.. !!!!!!
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Bump!
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For the sake of adding some input in this important topic.

WW/RLTW vs Strafe damage output comparison
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/9244705590?page=7#128

If people spent enough time trying to make the DH work while also playing one or more classes they´d recognise that it´s not just talk. There really is a difference in sustainable damage output of DHs compared to all 4 other classes.

That being said, Rapid Fire is very nice today, no wonder everyone uses it now, but it´s kind of a bandaid.

There was some talk about comparing damage output of builds. Well, here´s some numbers from me. I´ve tried to make Strafe work the best way I could because of its similar mechanics to Whirlwind which I have countless hours exp with so of course I wished Strafe to be maybe similar in performance....

Note that this example uses 1.67 aps as a comparison treshold between a Skorn and Manticore, which are pretty well comparable weapons. This aps is a breakpoint for all of the main skills that are being compared.

WW+RLTW mechanics
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6037344497
Strafe+Rapid Fire mechanics
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/8569329357

BARBARIAN

1. Hurricane = 263.64% weapon damage per second
2. RLTW = 109.09%-545.45% weapon damage per second (1-5 tornadoes)
3. Lacerate = 180.6% weapon damage per second
4. Killing Spree = ~82.5% weapon damage per second (165% but cooldown refreshes very fast)

TOTAL = 653.83 - 1072.19% (854.01% with 3 tornadoes) AoE weapon damage per second while moving. 17-51% damage comes from tornadoes.

That is arguably the best build in the game to farm trash mobs, also very good against elite packs. The supplementing skills are (5.) Into the Fray and (6.) Thrive on Chaos, which give damage bonuses and bypass the need to use a fury generator. All 3 passives are offensive, Ruthless and Weapons Master are up all the time, the third one Brawler or Berserker Rage is situational but a skilled player is able to snapshot either nicely.

DEMON HUNTER

1. Demolition = 330.35% weapon damage per second
2. Shuriken Cloud = 56.78% weapon damage per second (2 ticks per second that deal aps*17% damage)
3. Jagged Spikes = 45%-225% (1-5 caltrops)
4. Hail of Knives = 32% weapon damage per second (320% every 10 seconds)

TOTAL = 464.13%-644.13% weapon damage per second

other options I´ve tested but felt are worse (subjectively):
Dark Cloud = 26.4% weapon damage per second (66% per sec but only up 12/30 of the time)
Spitfire Turret = 205% weapon damage per second (sounds nice on paper but it doesn´t crit, which is just sad)
Choking Gas = 140% weapon damage per second (good damage and invulnerability, but very small area and puts a lot of pressure on disc globe if used for damage alongside caltrops and/or gloom)

Here I take (5.) Gloom as mandatory because you´re moving in the middle of mobs and the LS is needed because you have none on gear. Also I consider Nightstalker passive as mandatory for higher MP. You want to maximize damage output so the other 2 passives would be offensive.

But this doesn´t solve the hatred issue. I think the easiest solution is having a primary attack (6.) Bola Shot as the last skill. Other options to manage hatred:
-> Vengeance - this could be your second passive alongside Nightstalker which makes your life much easier for Strafe, but you´ll lose one valuable slot for boosting damage
-> Punishment - instantly replenishes hatred but strains disc, you won´t be able to caltrops for damage so much and/or gloom if fights take longer (at least it was difficult for me)
-> Bat Companion - 3 hatred per sec is nowhere near enough to permastrafe
-> Mortal Enemy - kind of unreliable against trash, you have to constantly recast this which stops Strafe

As for damage modifiers from skills between the two classes:

1. critical hit chance: Barb >
-> DH 75% cap not accounting for Sharpshooter, Strafe gear breaks it
-> Barb has more skills that grant a CC bonus and breaks the 75% cap with Ruthless, Battle Rage and WotB, there´s also +CC% WW SoJ

2. critical hit damage
-> comparable values between a Skorn and a Manticore

3. damage bonuses from skills
- Barb 15% always up plus another 25% or 30% situational
- DH depending on whic 1-2 passives you chose (+maybe Marked for Death), situational 15%/20%/27%/32%35%/47% if I´m not mistaken (Steady/Cull/MfD), one of the passives might be archery though so most likely 15% or 20% situational

As you can see, even on paper, the potential damage output of a similar type of build is quite far behind on the DH side, but the fact that Barb has overall better skill damage bonuses (CC/CD/damage), not to mention increased movement speed up at all times and CC immunity widens the gap even further. But the #1 reason DH can´t keep up is resource management.

Utilizing that synergy, Barb is able to generate enough fury to keep this going all day long while the DH struggles after a few seconds because of having to manage 2 resources without easy ways to bypass them. Also, Strafe eats too much resource.

My mains are a Barbs (third one >p60 already) but I also like to play my DH and I´d love if it was more efficient. I´m against nerfing the seemingly broken builds that Travis Day mentioned - WWRLTW Barb and CM Wiz (although since 1.0.8 I´d say that WD´s CoB is an unparalelled nuke, which no other class can match today (unless you count a 2 minute cooldown Insanity Quake Barb lol)...

Anyway, back to "buff/fix instead of nerf", here´s a few ideas how to bring the eDPS of this build closer to Barb:

-> reduce the cost of Strafe from 12 (3 per tick) to 8 (2 per tick) or change the scaling mechanics like you did with Whirlwind (higher aps has a slightly lower cost per tick) to allow people DW hand x-bows and not run out of hatred within a few seconds

-> give Caltrops a proc coefficient again, if only a very, very low one (<<1%) to help with disc management; I understand that you want disc to be defensive but having to use more than 1 skill to manage a resource limits damage potential; also, it would be nice if all caltrops dealt damage innately, Jagged would then be the higher damage rune

-> give Fan of Knives a cooldown reduction similar to Overpower (crit have a chance to lower it) - the cooldown and/or damage of the skill would have to be adjusted so that it doesn´t get out of hand

-> increase the damage (and maybe even range) of Shuriken Cloud

-> change the abomination that is Sentry so that it can crit, reduce its damage output if needed (I
understand you want to give an option for a high aps ruby in weapon playstyle, but this is just silly)

-> give Rain of Vengeance a CD reduction (maybe on kills), adjust its cooldown if needed
etc.

Note that I never claimed to be an expert on DHs I just spent quite some time researching its skills and trying out different builds. I don´t have the best gear but that shouldn´t disqualify my opinion.

Also, I understand that not all build should be viable on each and every MP, I just think that builds utilizing skills which work together in a very similar fashion between classes should be kind of comparable in efficiency.
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should make a separate thread nubtro.

Posts here tend to get drowned out.
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For the sake of adding some input in this important topic.

WW/RLTW vs Strafe damage output comparison
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/9244705590?page=7#128

If people spent enough time trying to make the DH work while also playing one or more classes they´d recognise that it´s not just talk. There really is a difference in sustainable damage output of DHs compared to all 4 other classes.

That being said, Rapid Fire is very nice today, no wonder everyone uses it now, but it´s kind of a bandaid.

There was some talk about comparing damage output of builds. Well, here´s some numbers from me. I´ve tried to make Strafe work the best way I could because of its similar mechanics to Whirlwind which I have countless hours exp with so of course I wished Strafe to be maybe similar in performance....

Note that this example uses 1.67 aps as a comparison treshold between a Skorn and Manticore, which are pretty well comparable weapons. This aps is a breakpoint for all of the main skills that are being compared.

WW+RLTW mechanics
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6037344497
Strafe+Rapid Fire mechanics
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/8569329357

BARBARIAN

1. Hurricane = 263.64% weapon damage per second
2. RLTW = 109.09%-545.45% weapon damage per second (1-5 tornadoes)
3. Lacerate = 180.6% weapon damage per second
4. Killing Spree = ~82.5% weapon damage per second (165% but cooldown refreshes very fast)

TOTAL = 653.83 - 1072.19% (854.01% with 3 tornadoes) AoE weapon damage per second while moving. 17-51% damage comes from tornadoes.

That is arguably the best build in the game to farm trash mobs, also very good against elite packs. The supplementing skills are (5.) Into the Fray and (6.) Thrive on Chaos, which give damage bonuses and bypass the need to use a fury generator. All 3 passives are offensive, Ruthless and Weapons Master are up all the time, the third one Brawler or Berserker Rage is situational but a skilled player is able to snapshot either nicely.

DEMON HUNTER

1. Demolition = 330.35% weapon damage per second
2. Shuriken Cloud = 56.78% weapon damage per second (2 ticks per second that deal aps*17% damage)
3. Jagged Spikes = 45%-225% (1-5 caltrops)
4. Hail of Knives = 32% weapon damage per second (320% every 10 seconds)

TOTAL = 464.13%-644.13% weapon damage per second

other options I´ve tested but felt are worse (subjectively):
Dark Cloud = 26.4% weapon damage per second (66% per sec but only up 12/30 of the time)
Spitfire Turret = 205% weapon damage per second (sounds nice on paper but it doesn´t crit, which is just sad)
Choking Gas = 140% weapon damage per second (good damage and invulnerability, but very small area and puts a lot of pressure on disc globe if used for damage alongside caltrops and/or gloom)

Here I take (5.) Gloom as mandatory because you´re moving in the middle of mobs and the LS is needed because you have none on gear. Also I consider Nightstalker passive as mandatory for higher MP. You want to maximize damage output so the other 2 passives would be offensive.

But this doesn´t solve the hatred issue. I think the easiest solution is having a primary attack (6.) Bola Shot as the last skill. Other options to manage hatred:
-> Vengeance - this could be your second passive alongside Nightstalker which makes your life much easier for Strafe, but you´ll lose one valuable slot for boosting damage
-> Punishment - instantly replenishes hatred but strains disc, you won´t be able to caltrops for damage so much and/or gloom if fights take longer (at least it was difficult for me)
-> Bat Companion - 3 hatred per sec is nowhere near enough to permastrafe
-> Mortal Enemy - kind of unreliable against trash, you have to constantly recast this which stops Strafe

As for damage modifiers from skills between the two classes:

1. critical hit chance: Barb >
-> DH 75% cap not accounting for Sharpshooter, Strafe gear breaks it
-> Barb has more skills that grant a CC bonus and breaks the 75% cap with Ruthless, Battle Rage and WotB, there´s also +CC% WW SoJ

2. critical hit damage
-> comparable values between a Skorn and a Manticore

3. damage bonuses from skills
- Barb 15% always up plus another 25% or 30% situational
- DH depending on whic 1-2 passives you chose (+maybe Marked for Death), situational 15%/20%/27%/32%35%/47% if I´m not mistaken (Steady/Cull/MfD), one of the passives might be archery though so most likely 15% or 20% situational

As you can see, even on paper, the potential damage output of a similar type of build is quite far behind on the DH side, but the fact that Barb has overall better skill damage bonuses (CC/CD/damage), not to mention increased movement speed up at all times and CC immunity widens the gap even further. But the #1 reason DH can´t keep up is resource management.

Utilizing that synergy, Barb is able to generate enough fury to keep this going all day long while the DH struggles after a few seconds because of having to manage 2 resources without easy ways to bypass them. Also, Strafe eats too much resource.

My mains are a Barbs (third one >p60 already) but I also like to play my DH and I´d love if it was more efficient. I´m against nerfing the seemingly broken builds that Travis Day mentioned - WWRLTW Barb and CM Wiz (although since 1.0.8 I´d say that WD´s CoB is an unparalelled nuke, which no other class can match today (unless you count a 2 minute cooldown Insanity Quake Barb lol)...

Anyway, back to "buff/fix instead of nerf", here´s a few ideas how to bring the eDPS of this build closer to Barb:

-> reduce the cost of Strafe from 12 (3 per tick) to 8 (2 per tick) or change the scaling mechanics like you did with Whirlwind (higher aps has a slightly lower cost per tick) to allow people DW hand x-bows and not run out of hatred within a few seconds

-> give Caltrops a proc coefficient again, if only a very, very low one (<<1%) to help with disc management; I understand that you want disc to be defensive but having to use more than 1 skill to manage a resource limits damage potential; also, it would be nice if all caltrops dealt damage innately, Jagged would then be the higher damage rune

-> give Fan of Knives a cooldown reduction similar to Overpower (crit have a chance to lower it) - the cooldown and/or damage of the skill would have to be adjusted so that it doesn´t get out of hand

-> increase the damage (and maybe even range) of Shuriken Cloud

-> change the abomination that is Sentry so that it can crit, reduce its damage output if needed (I
understand you want to give an option for a high aps ruby in weapon playstyle, but this is just silly)

-> give Rain of Vengeance a CD reduction (maybe on kills), adjust its cooldown if needed
etc.

Note that I never claimed to be an expert on DHs I just spent quite some time researching its skills and trying out different builds. I don´t have the best gear but that shouldn´t disqualify my opinion.

Also, I understand that not all build should be viable on each and every MP, I just think that builds utilizing skills which work together in a very similar fashion between classes should be kind of comparable in efficiency.


Thank you for your post and your reasoning behind it, the sad thing is everything you have mentioned has been mentioned before including similar buffs to said skills but has fallen to deaf ears. Theres tons of older threads on how to improve DH's but the problem is too many people say we are fine, Blizzard now even thinks we are fine, and even other DH's feel guilty for even asking for buffs which is the oddest thing that we are the only class i have seen say we shouldn't ask for buffs and enjoy how difficult the class is to play efficiently LOL!

Most hardcore DH's i know have given up hope on this class ever getting revived and have just moved onto their monks and barbs including myself. After this thread quite possibly the longest in this forums history that was outside of a nerf or new patch topic with zero blue responses it has become quite clear the class is going down the drain and if they ever do decide to buff it just might be too late for most players.

I applaud your attempt for being one of the few barbs to actually come in here and recognize the issue this class has and provide some positive feedback about the situation though! Hopefully it wont fall to deaf ears but at almost 90 pages it seems like it will.
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All i know that dh was ridiculous overpowered at the beginning of the game, so you maybe just need to l2p?
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06/12/2013 03:35 AMPosted by Highnrich
All i know that dh was ridiculous overpowered at the beginning of the game, so you maybe just need to l2p?


ROFL... it was OP for like 1 patch and then the barb nerf train crying kicked it and we got nerfed every patch since. Its a rock solid eDPS issue the facts and numbers are there.

Meanwhile barbs have been op for over 80% of this games life cycle and still going strong, hell i doubt Travis Days commens about nerfing WOTB will ever come to pass, all talk because if they truly wanted to nerf they would have done it with a hotfix or several patches ago like they did DH's
Edited by METATRON#1945 on 6/12/2013 3:41 AM PDT
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06/12/2013 03:39 AMPosted by METATRON
All i know that dh was ridiculous overpowered at the beginning of the game, so you maybe just need to l2p?


ROFL... it was OP for like 1 patch and then the barb nerf train crying kicked it and we got nerfed every patch since. Its a rock solid eDPS issue the facts and numbers are there.

Meanwhile barbs have been op for over 80% of this games life cycle and still going strong, hell i doubt Travis Days commens about nerfing WOTB will ever come to pass, all talk because if they truly wanted to nerf they would have done it with a hotfix or several patches ago like they did DH's


^ This.
Travis Days comments about the DH really destroyed my hopes about getting a buff.
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06/12/2013 04:13 AMPosted by shndany


ROFL... it was OP for like 1 patch and then the barb nerf train crying kicked it and we got nerfed every patch since. Its a rock solid eDPS issue the facts and numbers are there.

Meanwhile barbs have been op for over 80% of this games life cycle and still going strong, hell i doubt Travis Days commens about nerfing WOTB will ever come to pass, all talk because if they truly wanted to nerf they would have done it with a hotfix or several patches ago like they did DH's


^ This.
Travis Days comments about the DH really destroyed my hopes about getting a buff.

yeah, thats just you opinion man. maybe dh doesnt need a buff because they a tanky class almost unkillable with shadowpower
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