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With the same unbuff dps you can do it with Entangling Shot, so I'm not surprised, the only difference would be the amount of gear you need to achieve the same damage per hit as ES base is 90% and WT is 130% differ by 44%, so it might be better to use bola for the comparison.
Don't compare price you find item off AH, the price are set by the seller, aka DHs. We have a bad community about how much you should pay per point of dps/ehp. top end manticore is more than 60b. On the other side the barb community gave out a lot of mid-end gears to everyone for free as a result ah price are cheap as you can always find someone and ask for the gear instead of buying.
So I would never compare gear and its price across class, but I would compare the skills we have in slot. We don't have any skill that help buff our "damage" in our active bar.
With respect, not comparing the price of items used in gearing between classes is bull.
If I can spend 30 mil to gear a barb and be more efficient than a 2 bil DH, something's wrong. If I can take my gear from my DH and transfer it to my monk, buying only enough to complete the set bonus required for a TR build (and weapon, of course), spend only a few mil, and be more efficient than my DH,something's wrong. I also did the same with a CM wizard build, spent around 40-50 mil, and was also more efficient there then my DH, who at the time was pulling 100 mil xp/hour.
A bad community? Yep, that's the source of the problems with the DH, the community.
+1 as well.
Rare ring ( hypothetical ) :
50 all res
50% crit damage
6% crit chance
on a DH is 1/2 as effective as
25 all resis
3 % cc
on MONK/BARB/Wiz /WD .. that's BS ..
I never liked comparing the prices between classes. That's an AH and greed problem.
People that play the AH all day are getting their DHs stronger in gear by the daily, anyway. Players that used to say that Strafe didn't work past MP2 now say MP5, etc.
Many of the new items seem to cater to the other classes anyhow. I mean, just look at 0 Dogs. It's like that, on top of the whole notion that DHs don't scale the best with gear like the other classes do.
Barb weapons throw got a built in snare on it + a Three Hundred Spear(that doesn't even get used, and it's got built in movement speed, too lol). Have you seen the MP10 field of slaughter battle rage blood rune throw Barb video yet?(I don't have the link)
Fleet Footed goes over the cap, but Hot Pursuit has just been sitting there for who knows how long. I can only assume how easy it would be to flip a switch on just that passive.
DHs have hand crossbows that get the highest attack speeds out of all weapons in the game, showing that the class was fine tuned toward attack speeds. Especially with pierce chance with attacks like Hungering Arrow. A higher innate attack speed on weapons, scale with the attack speed affix on gear, but that affix got cut in half. Generators weren't properly compensated, Hungering Arrow is still 3 hatred per shot, and many proc rates are the exact same. Some of our skills don't even scale damage or ticks with attack speeds.
15% used to be the highest attack speed you could get from a quiver which needed to be a level 63. So Dual Wielding you could get that 15% right away with the wielding bonus. So dual wielding the fastest 1 handers in the game, which only DHs could do, would be the way to do it. But Dead Man's Legacy shot that in the face. That quiver is just TOO good, like many of the other class's builds - removing their choice. Just like how some people seem to think that Echoing Blast fell off the face of the earth the moment Rapid Fire was buffed.
When you think about it, it's almost as if our class being as diverse as it is, is preventing changes, too.
I don't even know what to think. I seesaw on this topic. There are so many Demon Hunter - like improvements, that would help these issues immediately and in a hurry. Cooldowns removed on every skill(even smokescreen, and revert it back), especially Sentry and allow us to drop more.
We have compelling choices for builds throughout our entire arsenal, that's why we're "fine", but we all have to try real hard to see that.
I lobby for Demon Hunter improvements(that's independent of buffs and nerfs), leave the class comparisons out of the equation.
Nerfs to the other classes would do the trick when comparing between them, but when it comes down to it, I honestly don't know what I want from this push pull other than doing more Demon Hunter things.
Actually man, this post is all over the place.
Edited by ActionKungfu#1184 on 6/29/2013 6:01 PM PDT
I have been all over the place trolling.
One thing is sure. Game play for the DH still exist. DH versus mobs is a good battle. We have to and love to deal with all the affixes tossed at us. Our builds can deal with them moderately. Easy on some and hard on a few combinations.. perfect. .that's how it should be.
Nerf and buffs is killing this game. When dps is the only factor in dealing with waller / jailer/molten/slow/knockback etc .. it just kills the gameplay.
What I want for real, is for the DH to scale better to MP10. To be fair the Barbs with 200 k dps on mp10 has the difficulty of 3 out of ten and the other classes maybe 4 out of 10. DH versus MP10 is about 8 out of ten difficulty.
I can play D3 just fine. If want DE / xp I can get it. If want good game play with DH I adjust the MPx to my liking. But DH endgame gear/builds is a bit off...
I realize that it is generally accepted as scripture by everyone that demon hunter has far weaker eDPS compared to other classes.
However, Tianzi wrote his guide prior to the rapid fire buff, when spike traps were the only efficient way for DH to play MP10. I find that when I use rapid fire bombardment, with non-dangerous elites (similar to those Tianzi shows in his video demonstration) I can clear the elite and trash mobs in similar times as his monk, i.e. a little over a minute for a MP10 crypt of the ancients run. It takes me a little over 1 1/2 minutes if they have frozen and arcane.
He has 270k DPS, I have 279k. Virtually identical. The only difference is that I use strafe / rapid fire instead of spike / bola.
My friend tested his 260K DPS CM wizard and it also takes him 1 1/2 to 2 minutes to clear MP10 cota.
What do you guys think? Given that MP10 cota runs now have comparable times as the other classes, does this mean that the demon hunter's eDPS issues are resolved, or at least, improved?
Edited by celegans#1280 on 6/29/2013 11:40 PM PDT
The edps problem arise when you are playing a class that can't active any buff to increase your pdps over 50%. And we can't stack anything on the ground and get resource back from it (I hope you all know which skill I'm referring). The other big issue is small aoe (4-9 yard), so to be effeicent we pick the skill that can do a bigger area damage, spike trap (echo) and rapid fire (bomb).
The math is simple, assume if your aps is 1.00 your dps at 160k, all the other 4 class can get this number to 240k or 320k, and I mean all the other 4 classes.
I can't crt for 1m on my hunter (solo 180k unbuff), the highest number I have seem is 840k (404% sticky trap), but on my wiz with 160k unbuff can get over 1m with those meteor (390% molten), 1.2m with 140k unbuff barb on hammer (406% smash). I'm comparing attacks with similar output, no using monk or doc as they have skills that deal far more damage. Missing skill buff greatly reduce the chance for a class to deal damage.
Currently gears are all the same except for weapon, most people just pick the item that will add the highest pdps which require speed, chance, and damage. The only difference between a lot of gears is the main stat even though the ah prices are different (which are created by flippers).
I think most of our woes stem from that model Wyatt referred to in Archons stream.
For example, take Impale it's a straight forward, easy to use skill that can hit targets across the screen. So, from what I gathered from Wyatt's comments, according to their rationale at the time, of course impale shouldn't do near as much damage as HotA because the barb had to run (time) up to the enemy and maintain a close proximity in order to land blows.
However, the reality is that time favors tanks as as they have the best CC gambit in the game, themselves. Tanks thrive on dense packs of monsters and the game delivers it on a silver platter. In other words, the game is programmed to reward tanks by putting the monsters right at their feet while the ranged DH has to use skill and adroitness to evade monsters while attacking, which also leads to the packs getting stretched thereby reducing the effectiveness of the DH's AoE attack.
To sum it up, it seems to me that the devs set set/have kept our skill damage low to combat the innate rewards to playing ranged. However, in actuality, there are more innate rewards for tanking. In short, whereas the game mechanics favor tanks, I'm finding it pretty hard to identify any tangible rewards for playing ranged.
If that's the developer's logic, ironically, gloom and smoke screen make DH the best class for tanking. I don't think any other class can facetank MP10 Act4 Keywarden with his 75% healing debuff the way a rapid fire or spike trap tank build can.
Hellion > Manticore
I like it.
At this point we all know Blizzard doesn't care or think Demon Hunters need any attention. We'll just sit back with our 1 ability that is lame as hell to use and forget about all build diversity.
I cmon.... it's been months and months with almost zero acknowledgement. I'm so sick of this crap, i'll come back and play in like 2 years after the xpac hits and they fix like maybe a fourth of the issues we've been complaining about since launch.
Edited by Sanoku#1417 on 7/7/2013 1:00 AM PDT
Hey, they said the skill buff will come with the item patch. Just wait. On the interview in May they talked about this thread, so it is alive in their minds. But I wish we can have TianZi back with his account tho.
"I know we have been saying this a lot lately, but the changes we are working on will greatly impact many areas of the game, including core gameplay elements, and we have to work meticulously and carefully to get things right because we want to be absolutely sure that they live up to your expectations :-)"
just from latest blues regrading next patch. We already know they're working on loot 2.0 but they also stated class changes will be coming as well. from this latest patch I do feel like we might see skill trees maybe. At least I hope so. allowing us to customize our builds and enhance our abilities further more would be huge plus not just for us but for d3. well one can only hope, meh.
aside from that, class changes are coming...as to what they're...your guess is good as mine.
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