Diablo® III

Resource on Crit is Broken, not WotB/ CM Wiz

TLDR is teh last paragraph.

-1-

In light of recent threads ie Drothvader's thread, the video comparison of Monk and DH using the same gear, and my observations of all the classes and their mechanics as a WD... It has occured to me that neither WotB or CM or Archon is broken or need to be nerfed. And the DH and WD are not UP.

None of them are broken. There is nothing wrong with generating lots of Fury and keeping up WotB longer. There is nothing wrong with reducing your cooldowns through crits. And there is no problem with having the cooldown of Archon decrease on deaths. It is resource on Crit that is broken. Given enough CHC, the resource generation becomes unlimited to the point where it breaks the purpose of the resource system. Fury on Crit allows the Barbarian to keep up ToC all the time. Arcane Power on Crit allows the CM wiz to spam those Force spells, WW and meteors all the time. Archon doesn't use resource on crit but essentially mimics it by making all spells free. The reason why we saw the Monk outperform the DH by a mile in those videos (linked below) is because of his Spirit on Crit, which allowed him to spam WoL more often than if he did not have Spirit on crit.

Let me say that again, there is nothing wrong with being able to extend Wotb and Archon or lower cooldowns through CM. But there is an issue with Resource on Crit system (when CHC reaches a certain level).

-2-

There are currently two classes in this game that are gimped because they don't have resource on crit. They are the only ones who have trouble in higher MP levels. I am talking talking about WD and DH. We don't have resource on Crit, only resource generated per second. If the WD or Dh had Resource on Crit, we would be just like the other classes, ie be in God-mode indefinitely.

Mana on crit would allow the WD to perma-freeze mobs (with Acid Cloud and CC chance e.g. 5% chance to freeze combined with AC's proc chance allows us to freeze mobs but we are limited by our Mana) AND gun them down with endless stampedes of Bears. Hatred and Discipline on crit would allow a DH, to have a much easier time spamming Cluster Arrows and other powerful spells, and keep SS and Shadow Power up all the time. The WD would be just like the Cm wiz and the DH would be just like the WOtB barb, lots damage and cc mitigation. But without resource on crit these two classes are gimped.

But if you think about it, it is not that they are gimped, they are actually working as intended. Their resources are working as intended. Both WD and DH have resources to manage. Their spells are not free once they reach certain CHC. These classes have to choose between attack speed and using their more powerful spells. The WDs normally forgo IAS in favour of Bears and the DHs stack IAS and spam their primaries when out of hatred.

-3-

Resources are not working as intended if you never run out of resource while channeling your most powerful spells.

When the game came out WDs could also get unlimited mana through Vision Quest passive (which gave unlimited mana provided you had 4 skills on cooldowns). They fixed that in patch 1.0.4 and justified it like so:
As it stands now, without Vision Quest, many builds feel like you never have quite enough Mana.
Don't get me wrong: feeling like you always want more Mana can be a good thing, otherwise the resource system isn’t really doing its job.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/6923459/patch-104-preview-witch-doctor-8-16-2012

And here you have the Barbs and Wizards who have endless Fury and Arcane Power. The Barb has Into the Fray, which they ALL use, and the Wizards have APoC on their gear. They just need to make sure they stack enough CHC and IAS to get unlimited resource. Once that is in place, they have unlimited God-mode. They can spam the most powerful spells. Secondary abilities for the Barb and Force spells for the Wizard. They can continue to cast WW, one after another. As for the Monk, he is in the middle somewhere. He needs to spam his primaries to get resource on Crit.

-4-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93Y7iPJraV8 - pay attention to the resource globes of teh DH and Monk (Thanks to Tianzi) forward halfway through to see Monk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIZDQomvW5Q - pay attention to the resource globes of the Barb and Wiz (thanks to Drothvader) forward about halfway to see Wiz

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYJuaTuyEEw - pay attention to the resource globe of the WD (thanks to PtbRulz) forward it by several minutes. Note: He is playing with a 0.90 AS weapon and is not stacking any IAS, besides WH.

-5-

So to conclude it is resource on Crit (or in other words unlimited resource) that is broken not ToC or Cm. Resource on Crit allows for God-mode. It gives Barbs and Wiz (and Monks to some extent) a perma God mode, and an unfair advantage over WD and DH. And if you were to give resource on crit to WD and DH, they will also have God-mode and mimic the mechanics of Cm Wiz and WotB barbs. Since WD and DH need to manage their resources, they are actually working as intended. The WD and Dh are perfect examples of how classes should function in this game. The other resource systems should be fixed to the example of Mana and Hatred/Discipline.
Edited by JangBahadur#1968 on 4/28/2013 7:21 PM PDT
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Just for info


Night Stalker
Demon Hunter
Critical Hits have a chance to restore 1 Discipline.

Discipline is used to fuel many of your tactical and defensive skills."How did I learn to hate, to kill, to flay the flesh from the bones of my prey without pity? You taught me." Tyla Shrikewing's final words to Naragh the Sin Eater
Unlocks at Level: 20
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+1 for insight.

The sad part is its not realistic for Blizzard to fix until a major patch (1.1 or even 2.0). I'm excited to see the fix when it comes but I'm not holding my breath.
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Yes Nickmot, I know about that, and it is a small issue. But it is not nearly as strong as Fury on Crit or AP on crit or even Hatred on Crit. If that was changed to Hatred on Crit instead, DH would be up there with Barbs and Wiz.
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I beg to differ.

Resource on crit makes other builds possible. Take meteor builds for example. They are no way overpowered but by nerfing APoC and CM, you remove any possible diversity on that front. The same can be said for any other builds that require resource to cast.

Archon also has no reliance on APoC when in form and is extended by kills made by the player or team mates in proximity.
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TLDR is teh last paragraph.

In light of recent threads ie Drothvader's thread, the video comparison of Monk and DH using the same gear, and my observations of all the classes and their mechanics as a WD... It has occured to me that neither WotB or CM or Archon is broken or need to be nerfed. And the DH and WD are not UP.

None of them are broken. There is nothing wrong with generating lots of Fury and keeping up WotB longer. There is nothing wrong with reducing your cooldowns through crits. And there is no problem with having the cooldown of Archon decrease on deaths. It is resource on Crit that is broken. Given enough CHC, the resource generation becomes unlimited to the point where it breaks the purpose of the resource system. Fury on Crit allows the Barbarian to keep up ToC all the time. Arcane Power on Crit allows the CM wiz to spam those Force spells, WW and meteors all the time. Archon doesn't use resource on crit but essentially mimics it by making all spells free. The reason why we saw the Monk outperform the DH by a mile in those videos (linked below) is because of his Spirit on Crit, which allowed him to spam WoL more often than if he did not have Spirit on crit.

Let me say that again, there is nothing wrong with being able to extend Wotb and Archon or lower cooldowns through CM. But there is an issue with Resource on Crit system (when CHC reaches a certain level).

There are currently two classes in this game that are gimped because they don't have resource on crit. They are the only ones who have trouble in higher MP levels. I am talking talking about WD and DH. We don't have resource on Crit, only resource generated per second. If the WD or Dh had Resource on Crit, we would be just like the other classes, ie be in God-mode indefinitely.

Mana on crit would allow the WD to perma-freeze mobs (with Acid Cloud and CC chance e.g. 5% chance to freeze combined with AC's proc chance allows us to freeze mobs but we are limited by our Mana) AND gun them down with endless stampedes of Bears. Hatred and Discipline on crit would allow a DH, to have a much easier time spamming Cluster Arrows and other powerful spells, and keep SS and Shadow Power up all the time. The WD would be just like the Cm wiz and the DH would be just like the WOtB barb, lots damage and cc mitigation. But without resource on crit these two classes are gimped.

But if you think about it, it is not that they are gimped, they are actually working as intended. Their resources are working as intended. Both WD and DH have resources to manage. Their spells are not free once they reach certain CHC. These classes have to choose between attack speed and using their more powerful spells. The WDs normally forgo IAS in favour of Bears and the DHs stack IAS and spam their primaries when out of hatred.

Resources are not working as intended if you never run out of resource while channeling your most powerful spells.

When the game came out WDs could also get unlimited mana through Vision Quest passive (which gave unlimited mana provided you had 4 skills on cooldowns). They fixed that in patch 1.0.4 and justified it like so:
As it stands now, without Vision Quest, many builds feel like you never have quite enough Mana.
Don't get me wrong: feeling like you always want more Mana can be a good thing, otherwise the resource system isn’t really doing its job.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/6923459/patch-104-preview-witch-doctor-8-16-2012

And here you have the Barbs and Wizards who have endless Fury and Arcane Power. The Barb has Into the Fray, which they ALL use, and the Wizards have APoC on their gear. They just need to make sure they stack enough CHC and IAS to get unlimited resource. Once that is in place, they have unlimited God-mode. They can spam the most powerful spells. Secondary abilities for the Barb and Force spells for the Wizard. They can continue to cast WW, one after another. As for the Monk, he is in the middle somewhere. He needs to spam his primaries to get resource on Crit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93Y7iPJraV8 - pay attention to the resource globes of teh DH and Monk (Thanks to Tianzi) forward halfway through to see Monk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIZDQomvW5Q - pay attention to the resource globes of the Barb and Wiz (thanks to Drothvader) forward about halfway to see Wiz

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYJuaTuyEEw - pay attention to the resource globe of the WD (thanks to PtbRulz) forward it by several minutes. Note: He is playing with a 0.90 AS weapon and is not stacking any IAS, besides WH.

So to conclude it is resource on Crit (or in other words unlimited resource) that is broken not ToC or Cm. Resource on Crit allows for God-mode. It gives Barbs and Wiz (and Monks to some extent) a perma God mode, and an unfair advantage over WD and DH. And if you were to give resource on crit to WD and DH, they will also have God-mode and mimic the mechanics of Cm Wiz and WotB barbs. Since WD and DH need to manage their resources, they are actually working as intended. The WD and Dh are perfect examples of how classes should function in this game. The other resource systems should be fixed to the example of Mana and Hatred/Discipline.

I just read that we need buffs to DH, Monk and WD resource generation.

Blizz.. please buff them all so everyone can have fun playing this game.
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You can say the same thing about WD and DH, who don't have resource on crit. If they did, it makes other builds possible and stronger.

Right now, meteor can easily be assimilated into the CM build in place of WW.

How do WDs and DHs work with meteor-like skills ie skills that are costly but have huge DPS. For the WD and Dh these are Zombie Bears and Cluster Arrow respectively. The WD do the Bear build and DH do the cluster arrow build by lowering their IAS as much as possible and stack resource regeneration items.
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I just read that we need buffs to DH, Monk and WD resource generation.

Blizz.. please buff them all so everyone can have fun playing this game.

Lol sure, I wouldn't mind that but having unlimited resource is against their philosophy. They stuck by it and nerfed WDs passive back in 1.0.4. I expect the same treatment to Barbs, Wizs and Monks.
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lets not forget here that barbas also LOSE resources over time. Which other class is losing their resources after 10 or 20 sec.?

Seriously, those which really want to see in to the fray nerfed, have no clue what the barb actually plays like.
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04/22/2013 06:01 AMPosted by Icingdeath
The same can be said for any other builds that require resource to cast.


How many builds don't require resource to use? Having high resource regeneration is good for nearly any build.

Low resource skills are less damaging and high resource skills are more powerful. With infinite resource only high resource skills are good. If you can use high resource skills at the same rate as low resource skills why using the lower damage skills?

Now if the damage of the low resource skills are increased to match the high resource skills, nobody need high resource generation. We keep using the low resource skills. The same goes for skills that give you resource. If you can achieve infinite resource, the generators are either useless or so powerful that you don't need others skills (or infinite resource).

Powerful skills should have a cost to balance them with less powerful skills. Removing the cost is breaking the balance with no hope to restoring it.
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How? By forcing them into a sns/cmww build or a LL fuelled build which again generate AP to cast meteors?

How would arcane torrent/RoF/orb/disintegrate builds be expected to play? Is their damage and survival so great to warrant such a change? Better yet, after we blow our load with the afore mentioned, what are we supposed to do then?

I for one dont see DH, WD or Monks giving pause to their own skill spam. Take WD zero dog build for example. A wonderful build when well put together.

What is the apex issue you have with archon and wotb? The damage and survival? Skill required to operate? Barrier to entry?

Calling a nerf to something like APoC when it comes to Archon is mind boggling. Also, if your point was about resetting the cd on archon, one could run a signature free to cast LL build with CM and shorten the cd that way.
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04/22/2013 06:22 AMPosted by CrniVuk
Seriously, those which really want to see in to the fray nerfed, have no clue what the barb actually plays like.


Barbarian have a lot of way to gain resource but they use only into the fray in most case.

Primary skills
  • Bash: 8 fury
  • Cleaves: 5 fury (rune for 3 fury per hit)
  • frenzy: 3 fury
  • You gain fury by hitting environment objects (other classes can't do it)

    Secondary skills:
  • Ground stomp: 15 fury but 12 seconds cooldown
  • Leap: 15 fury and but 10 second cooldown
  • Ancient spear: 15 fury but 10 seconds cooldown
  • Threatening Shout: 15 fury but 10 seconds cooldown
  • Furious Charge: 15 fury but 10 seconds cooldown
  • War cry: 20 fury but 20 seconds cooldown
  • Battle rage with into the fray
  • Whirlwind with Wind Shear: 1 fury per hit (4 hit per second if I remember well). But only reduce cost I think.
  • Passives:
  • Master weapons with heavy weapon: 3 fury per hit. (Most people prefer using an axe for 10% CC and into the fray).
  • Animosity: +20% fury regeneration and +20 max fury.
  • No Escape: Increases the damage of Ancient Spear and Weapon Throw by 10%. In addition, a Critical Hit with Ancient Spear resets the cooldown while Critical Hits with Weapon Throw have a chance to return 14 Fury.
  • Relentless:While below 20% Life, all skills cost 75% less Fury and all damage taken is reduced by 50%. This does not give resource but reduce cost. And this need being able to have a great amount of life. Which is not the case. Life is to hard to get.
  • Unforgiving: You no longer degenerate Fury. Instead, you gain 2 Fury every 1 seconds.
  • Barbarian get 1 fury when hit. (This is not the better way to gain fury but this count too.)

    I don't think nerfing into the fray let barbarian without any way to gain fury. But if into the fray is too efficient this makes a lot of others skills or passives useless.
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    For the record.
    While in archon form, abilities have no AP cost to cast. You can melt your way to victory with enough dps. High barrier to entry btw.

    The strength of the SNS wizard is in its ability to perma freeze through the quick resetting of cooldowns via CM. in addition to this, the high damage multiplier of anywhere between 5-7x sheet dps makes it one of the two more popular wizard choices. Archon being the other.

    As a meteor wizard myself that enjoys reaction based kiting mobility, with max apoc, i still choke with abilities and gear to help defray the cost.
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    OP, you are doing it wrong. You should be asking for a similar crit system for WD and DH but instead you ask for nerf bat on the other class. That's not only wrong but dumb.
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    - Like I said you'll play with Meteor and other costly spells like Disintegreate how WD and DH play with Bears and Cluster Arrow.

    - If you can lower CD with CM and a primary spell, great!

    Take WD zero dog build for example. A wonderful build when well put together.

    Agreed. 0Dog build is ideal way to increase build diversity at the end game. This build is currently only available to like 0.01% of the WD but if you can put the 1B+ gold into it, you have something pretty unique and awesome in your hands. They are going to work these kinds of mechanics into other class specific items, in the next itemization patch. :D It's gona be awesome.
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    Creamy,
    I wouldn't mind that and many WD have already asked for it but you can see what they said about it, in the quoted text.
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    Agreed. 0Dog build is ideal way to increase build diversity at the end game. This build is currently only available to like 0.01% of the WD but if you can put the 1B+ gold into it, you have something pretty unique and awesome in your hands. They are going to work these kinds of mechanics into other class specific items, in the next itemization patch. :D It's gona be awesome.


    So build diversity should be only really achieved if you throw a billion gold at your char? Awesome!

    now I have to go puke.

    Seriously, those which really want to see in to the fray nerfed, have no clue what the barb actually plays like.


    Barbarian have a lot of way to gain resource but they use only into the fray in most case.

    Primary skills
  • Bash: 8 fury
  • Cleaves: 5 fury (rune for 3 fury per hit)
  • frenzy: 3 fury
  • You gain fury by hitting environment objects (other classes can't do it)

    Secondary skills:
  • Ground stomp: 15 fury but 12 seconds cooldown
  • Leap: 15 fury and but 10 second cooldown
  • Ancient spear: 15 fury but 10 seconds cooldown
  • Threatening Shout: 15 fury but 10 seconds cooldown
  • Furious Charge: 15 fury but 10 seconds cooldown
  • War cry: 20 fury but 20 seconds cooldown
  • Battle rage with into the fray
  • Whirlwind with Wind Shear: 1 fury per hit (4 hit per second if I remember well). But only reduce cost I think.
  • Passives:
  • Master weapons with heavy weapon: 3 fury per hit. (Most people prefer using an axe for 10% CC and into the fray).
  • Animosity: +20% fury regeneration and +20 max fury.
  • No Escape: Increases the damage of Ancient Spear and Weapon Throw by 10%. In addition, a Critical Hit with Ancient Spear resets the cooldown while Critical Hits with Weapon Throw have a chance to return 14 Fury.
  • Relentless:While below 20% Life, all skills cost 75% less Fury and all damage taken is reduced by 50%. This does not give resource but reduce cost. And this need being able to have a great amount of life. Which is not the case. Life is to hard to get.
  • Unforgiving: You no longer degenerate Fury. Instead, you gain 2 Fury every 1 seconds.
  • Barbarian get 1 fury when hit. (This is not the better way to gain fury but this count too.)

    I don't think nerfing into the fray let barbarian without any way to gain fury. But if into the fray is too efficient this makes a lot of others skills or passives useless.

    exactly! Nice that we agree here :3

    Hope you see the point somehow but you maybe dont play really a barb our you just love to argue.

    The problem. Nerfi in to the fray will not make the other so called "options" better.

    I am not here to play the game on the speed of a snail. Nor do I enjoy it to wait for cooldown times or what ever you want to call it. Resource management should be better left to RTS games and Cooldown times to MMOs where "balance" might really matter becaues of PvP or what ever.

    Diablo is and always was an fast pased, action action RPG (the double action becaues every RPG today is an "action" RPG ...)

    So, no. Who ever is right in the head will not want an nerf on in to the fray. That would be like asking for nerfs to archon wizards which are perectly fine. Oh wait a min...

    No seriously. So many really nice and funny barb builds work on in to the fray. is that awesome? Not it isnt. But thats because THERE IS NO GOD DAMN ALTERNATIVE TO IT.
    Edited by CrniVuk#2227 on 4/22/2013 7:57 AM PDT
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    This is just one of the many things Bliz overlooked when creating the MP system. If we were all stuck with only MP3, then DH and WD wouldn't be doing so bad with resource on health globe. Gruesome Feast and Vengeance do not scale well with MP. Neither do effects that trigger on kill, like WD mana per kill, life per kill, and archon.

    I wouldn't say resource on crit is broken at all... it is necessary for higher MP. The MP system was created in 1.0.4 and needs to be further refined. Up to this point, bliz just changed numbers around to tune xp and mf rewards... but they need to actually do some real coding and implement new skills for DH and WD that will allow them to sustain resources at higher MP. If Monster Power went higher than 10, this problem would be even more apparent.
    Reply Quote
    04/22/2013 07:54 AMPosted by CrniVuk
    Resource management should be better left to RTS games and Cooldown times to MMOs where "balance" might really matter becaues of PvP or what ever.


    I think Resource management and Cooldown is good because without that you only have to spam your more powerful skills. But because diablo is an action game, we must have a way to make them less costly to use. Managing your resource is part of the challenge. I prefer this type of difficulty. I don't like much almost invulnerable only interrupted by some OS.

    04/22/2013 07:54 AMPosted by CrniVuk
    Hope you see the point somehow but you maybe dont play really a barb our you just love to argue.


    I play a barb and use Master weapons with heavy weapon. I know my builds is not as good as one using into the fray. It's easy to gain fury. But when I do that I can't use spender which are more powerful. There is no alternative to "into the fray" if you want to only use powerful fury spender. This means a reduce eDPS.

    I see a problem if we can use only spenders. Spenders are more powerful because they cost resource. If you can have enough resource regeneration when using only spenders, you end up with useless resource generator.
    Reply Quote
    This is just one of the many things Bliz overlooked when creating the MP system. If we were all stuck with only MP3, then DH and WD wouldn't be doing so bad with resource on health globe. Gruesome Feast and Vengeance do not scale well with MP. Neither do effects that trigger on kill, like WD mana per kill, life per kill, and archon.

    I wouldn't say resource on crit is broken at all... it is necessary for higher MP. The MP system was created in 1.0.4 and needs to be further refined. Up to this point, bliz just changed numbers around to tune xp and mf rewards... but they need to actually do some real coding and implement new skills for DH and WD that will allow them to sustain resources at higher MP. If Monster Power went higher than 10, this problem would be even more apparent.


    I agree with almost all you have said. But I think resource on crit may be too strong but they are necessary for higher MP. Being necessary being the worst.
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