Diablo® III

Revised WW Tic Rate and Breakpoints

Due to a lot of confusion about the previous tic rate and breakpoint thread, I thought I'd post this revised version of the other post. Most of the confusion arises because of the setup of the other post, which can be found below, first lists experimental breakpoints, which some end up taking as the actual breakpoints. The actual breakpoints are determined from a mathematical formula discoverd by Voltara. The results of using that formula are shown in the table.

Original thread: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6794871641

As stated in the original thread, credit goes in part to Apo and Guybrush for "doing the lion's share of the work".

Min APS #tics
-----------------
5.0001 72
4.2858 60
3.7501 52
3.3334 45
3.0001 40
2.7273 36
2.5001 33
2.3077 30
2.1429 28
2.0001 26
1.8751 24
1.7648 23
1.6667 22
1.5790 20
1.5001 19


The breakpoints are fairly simple. If you are above a given APS in the table, your WW tics for the number of times listed, over the full 6s duration. Also note that your in game displayed APS only shows 2 decimal places while the game uses the actual APS. If you want to be sure you are at the appropriate breakpoint, it's best to either calculate your APS manually, or use a reference table like the one found in the link below.

Manual APS calculation formula
APS = (Base Weapon Speed * (1+Weapon IAS/100)+Bonus APS)*(1+sum(IAS)/100)

Base Weapon Speed
Dagger: 1.5
Wand/Sword: 1.4

Bonus APS includes 0.03 for enchantress and 0.21 to 0.25 from chanto MH.
sum(IAS) doesn't include weapon IAS but does include 10% from the IAS slow time bubble if applicable


And for those curious enough to want to know the actual formula used to obtain the values in the table, here it is, again courtesy of Voltara:

frames_per_attack = floor(30 / attacks_per_second)
tick_rate = ceil(360 / frames_per_attack)


For more information about the formula and how it applies to other, similar skills, see http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/8704740408#6

Thread with IAS/APS breakpoint reference table that shows how much IAS you need from gear to reach some of the breakpoints for a given weapon.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/8569327950
Edited by Loroese#1415 on 4/22/2013 2:32 PM PDT
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great post
another method for calculating ur aps is
take ur weapon atk spd
and multiply it by the ias you have on ur gear
ie for me it is currently 1.65 x 1.66 (currently have 66ias on gear)
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If i have 2.73 aps, and 62 CC to ET, what would that compare to?

like i herd having 2.5 aps with 50+ CC is like having 2.73 aps.
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Added formula to calculate APS manually for those who prefer that to a reference table.
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If i have 2.73 aps, and 62 CC to ET, what would that compare to?

like i herd having 2.5 aps with 50+ CC is like having 2.73 aps.


I think the rough estimate is 6-8 CC is like adding 1 breakpoint. You can try playing with steves CMWW dps simulator if you want a better idea. I don't have the link for it but you should be able to find it with a search. Keep in mind those results should still just be taken as an approximation, but it should still be a better approximation than me trying to remember a post I read a while back.
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Thanks Loroese, we needed an updated thread!

For people interested in the topic, it's also worth mentioning that a good deal of what we know about skill breakpoints comes from the work done by:
  • Nubtro - I'm not 100% sure, but I think Nubtro discovered the first skill breakpoint. This was for the Barbarian Skill (Run Like the Wind) around last July: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6037344497 . He's also been at the forefront at analyzing the breakpoints for most barb skills, but he's looked at a few other skills for other classes including wizard: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/8568958682?page=2#39 .
  • *European Gang (plus Shandlar and apo) - Also if I remember correctly, a lot of the initial discussion of breakpoints for Wicked Wind were discussed in this thread: http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5208511084 . And fortunately a lot of that the breakpoint research is translatable over to other skills. The speed coefficients for wizard spells listed in this thread can be used to estimate the breakpoints for our other wizard skills:
    base_frames_per_attack = 60 / speed coefficient
    actual_frames_per_attack = floor(base_frames_per_attack x attacks_per_second])
    tick_rate = ceil(360 / actual_frames_per_attack)

    P.S. Note that the base_frames_per_attack is 30 for WW (like Loroese's formula above), because WW has a speed coefficient of 2
  • Edited by TekkZero#1963 on 4/22/2013 2:31 PM PDT
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    Thanks Tekk. I probably would have gotten around to adding the speed coefficient part eventually, but instead I just added a link to your post.
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    If i have 2.73 aps, and 62 CC to ET, what would that compare to?

    like i herd having 2.5 aps with 50+ CC is like having 2.73 aps.


    I think the rough estimate is 6-8 CC is like adding 1 breakpoint. You can try playing with steves CMWW dps simulator if you want a better idea. I don't have the link for it but you should be able to find it with a search. Keep in mind those results should still just be taken as an approximation, but it should still be a better approximation than me trying to remember a post I read a while back.


    To put it in a simple but not completely accurate way,

    1 bp higher basically gives u 10% more ticks on ww. So in order to make up the 10% difference, ur crit chance need to be 10% higher, which usually translates into 5-6.

    Then on top of that, to make up the increase in attack speed on other non-ww skills, u need a little more than 10% crit chance increase, so in general 12-14% crit chance increase should make up for the breakpoint, which translates into 6-8 crit chance in most cases.
    Edited by Neuron#1807 on 4/22/2013 2:48 PM PDT
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    @Neuron: So that's part of the story, but it's even more complicated than that. Not only do you have to make up the lost efficiency from less ticks and slower attack speed of your other skiils (which you mentioned), but you also need to take into account how many twisters you have at full wind up. And this is where people run into trouble with breakpoint, since they assume there's little benefit from attack speed in between the breakpoints.

    And that's a falacious assumption, as casting more twisters still means more overall ticks. The number of twisters at full wind up is: 6s x (Attack Speed - Frost Nova Casts Per Second), and usually people suggest the number of frost nova casts per second is 0.95aps (which is required for permafreeze). And arguably casting more twisters is potentially the most dominant component of gaining attack speed, even more than the breakpoint itself.

    For example, if we compare 2.73aps to 2.51aps, we see the following:
    WW Tick Efficiency of 2.51aps = 100* (33 Ticks / 36 Ticks) = 91.67% as efficient as 2.73aps breakpoint.
    WW Casting Efficiency of 2.51aps = 100*([2.51-0.95]/[2.73-0.95]) = 87.6404% as efficient as 2.51aps
    So for trying to make up for lost attack speed, you need to account for both components. And the reduced casting efficiency contributes potentially even a larger portion than the breakpoint itself.

    And to make matters worse, the tricky party in all this is how our Frost Nova casts impair us! I assumed 0.95 casts per second, which is what is required for permafreeze on elites; however, that most certainly is not what we're casting in practice. It's a complicated feedback loop too, because if you have more WW crits (either from more twisters, more ticks, or more cc) then Frost Nova takes up more of our actions per second, which in turn reduces the number of twisters you have. So yeah it's a mess. Thus, I think for most people it's best to use Steve's CM/WW wiz simulator (d3cmww.com ), since it's sadly a very complicated system.
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    @TekkZero

    I couldn't agree more with what you said. The simple calculation I posted is to give players an rough estimate on how much crit chance u need to make up for the breakpoint difference.

    BTW: I believe 1.05 sec interval is the threshold for theoretical permafreeze of elites.
    Edited by Neuron#1807 on 4/22/2013 3:20 PM PDT
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    @Neuron: Absolutely, 1.05s is the interval you need to permafreeze enemies. But 1/1.05s = 0.95 Frost Nova Actions per second. So we're actually talking the same thing! :lol

    But the reason I brought up what I did is that while Loroese and you are right in saying you need about 7%cc for the breakpoint itself, it's potentially misleading to someone reading it. The breakpoint ITSELF may be worth 6-8cc, but the difference of someone at 2.51aps vs 2.73 aps requires a lot more cc than just 6-8cc to make up not only for the breakpoint, but the reduced number of twisters.

    Using the D3CMWW.com simulator, I estimate that a wizard with 2.5aps per second requires 61cc just to have the same number of CM procs as a wizard with 50%cc and 2.73aps. Thus, it's more like 11cc to make up for everything. Now in contrast a wizard with 2.72aps (just short of the breakpoint), requires only 7% more cc to equal someone at 2.73aps and 50%cc. This is what I believe both Loroese and you are discussing. But it's potentially misleading, since players cannot assume that being at 2.51aps and +7%cc will cover the complete difference. It sadly won't... and that's because they need to account for the reduced number of twisters at full wind up.
    Edited by TekkZero#1963 on 4/22/2013 3:34 PM PDT
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    - Diablo III (Wizard)
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    bump,...just because I missed this. somehow. i think i'll link it in my SNS guide instead of Shandlar's....since his causes confusion.

    Thanks!
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    bump,...just because I missed this. somehow. i think i'll link it in my SNS guide instead of Shandlar's....since his causes confusion.

    Thanks!


    You could also link his guide as an alternative to your =D
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