Diablo® III

0dog: big bang evolution for 1.08

UPDATE: 05/20/13
new vid added on the 3rd post. showcasing a 1.08 synergy build based on 0dog and CoB

UPDATE: 05/04/13
new vid added on the 3rd post of this thread. showcasing the practical speed difference between 2.02 APS vs 1.67 APS. also please check out the vid Heyguyslol has generously provided here

http://www.twitch.tv/heyguyslol_1302/c/2241464

UPDATE: 05/02/13

1st video added on the 3rd post of the thread demonstrating the viability of the build. nothing hard or complicated just a straight CotA run with an easy pack. will add more vids later to showcase the various aspects of the build from strength to weaknesses of the build.

UPDATE: 05/01/13
It has been suggested that I should put a disclaimer to this guide to indicate this is neither a cheap nor a beginners variation to the standard 0dog build. for starters, this build ONLY support a 3 piece build, and if you are unsure what is meant by that, then this is likely not the right build for you. this build assumes you have a fundamental understanding behind the inner workings of the 0 dog build. This build is specifically designed for MP8+ content and is most effective in an group environment where buffs and abilities of other classes compliments the overall build. It IS possible to solo with this build, however the success depends on the skill level of the player.

this is a variant of the 0dog build focusing more on the critical chance, critical damage, and intelligence aspects of the DPS formula. this build is specifically developed for MP8+ in a full group situation. you can still solo with it. but its effectiveness is MUCH more apparent in a full MP10 group with other group members providing buffs as well.

the philosophy behind the build is to realize that 0dog is a 2 stage attack(summon/explode) which renders it VERY SLOW compared to other builds. with this in mind, instead of trying to fix what is "weak" with the build, we maximize what is powerful with the build and overcome the weakness by maximizing the advantage of the build. the strength of the build is obviously gruesome feast with soul harvest and the fact that sacrifice is a 1100%(4x275%) weapon dmg skill. this build focuses on bringing that "big bang" to the table rather then a bunch of small bang's.

The haste aspect this build is broken down into 2 different break points. a 1.6 APS and a 1.9 APS. these 2 break points are established NOT from a mathmatical formula (like the critical mass build of wizards) but more as a guideline from practical consideration of lag, summoning / explosion animation, computer response time and server response time. exceeding 1.9 is not beneficial for this build due to diminishing returns from the additional haste and more importantly the "trade-off costs" of those additional haste. beyond 1.9 APS, you will almost always gain more practical dps from intellect or crit then you would haste because it's better to kill the mob in 1 or 2 explosions rather then needing the 3rd explosion. the exception here is of course if you are godly dressed like heyguyslol where you pretty much have the best gear anyone can possibly afford :D

why so slow? it has more to do with how damage is calculated and the damage distribution curve weapons perform at. most weapons do NOT follow a normal bell shaped curve when it comes to damage distribution. from observation, i have found that most weapon tend to have a bell curve that is skewed to the left. meaning MORE of your damage will be coming from the minimum damage side of the distribution curve rather then the maximum damage side of the curve.

for demonstration purposes I will use a 1000x multiplier to show how the curve works. On a dagger with 300 to 1100 damage range. you can expect the critical dmg(yellow) numbers to range from 300k to 1.1 mil through practice you notice that 40% of your crits tend to be around 300 to 500k and only 10% of your crits are 1mil +. now, you take a spear or hammer of the same DPS rating it should have something like a 600 to 1000 dmg range, you notice the spear/hammer giving you a MUCH tighter damage number groupings with most of your damage hovering around 700 to 900k. Very few dipping below 700k and still having a fair amount of 1million dmg crits.

SOME weapons tend to perform differently then others. MCK for example, performs more like a normal bell curve then a typical yellow dagger or sword. the yellow weapons tend to perform with a more skewed bell curve. with this information in mind, the overall dps profile of the 0dog actually favors slower weapons because the bigger average bangs actually out performs the incremental increase in speed. however the MCK does tend to perform more like a slower weapon in terms of the damage distribution so it's actually not a bad weapon to use even in this build. you will see some smaller numbers but not enough to offset the speed it offers you to achieve 1.6 APS.

now looking at the 1.9 APS break point, its benefit over the 1.6 break point is obvious. you have MUCH better mobility hence survivability and MORE IMPORTANTLY, you achieve gruesome feast at a MUCH faster rate. the primary purpose of achieving 1.9 APS is for faster gruesome feast. otherwise 1.6 APS works just fine. Speed beyond 1.9 APS is useful, however more often then not, you will be giving up waaaaaay too much crit/crit chance/int/etc... for those additional haste and are forced to use inferior equipment such as inna, lacuni, or tal just to keep the speed up. i know this goes up against what has became conventional wisdom, however the logic behind it does make the build work better in a group environment.
Edited by Psyclum#1653 on 5/20/2013 11:39 AM PDT
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the "minimum requirements" of this build are as follows

40% crit chance
250% crit damage (with RED gem, NOT green gem)
2500 intellect

once you achive your minimum requirements, you try to further improve those 3 stats. unlike most builds, intellect plays a HUGE role in the overall priority due to grusum feast so it should not be sacrificed lightly.

the "basic" loadout for the build include

8 sec 0dog SoJ
18 sec+ homonculous
8 sec giyua (we will assume that a trifecta kelidoscope with 8 second dog does NOT exist :D )
2.8%+ life leech weapon with socket, 40%+ weapon damage, and 70%+ critical dmg
65k hp
750 all resist
6yards+ pickup radius
additional heal on health globe is a big plus for this build :)

as you can see from the basic loadout, it's a VERY expensive "starting point". this is required because it focuses on an end game build which uses provoke the pack instead of for the master. So, high crits are needed to stay alive most of the time. (reflect damage is a real problem). this build does require skill and practice to use and you will still die alot to some difficult elite affixes. but depending on who you group with, it can make a world of difference.
getting into the right group is as important if not more important then your equipment. in MP10, you can FEEL the difference when you have to "carry" 1 person in the group. in pub where you are carrying 2 or 3 people... it's not really worth staying.

the "ideal" group for this build would be an implosion monk with overawe, a CM/WW wizzy with orange bubble(time warp) and the final group member can be anyone who knows how to play their class and does not need to be carried. (donkey kong hammer barb, bell monk, vally of death DH, meteor wiz, bear doc or just another dog doc)

I know alot of people will disagree with this build. the math behind having more haste is very compelling especially from a paper dps point of view. however the only thing i can say is this build works. and i think alot of you will agree once you see those 2mil+ crits from elite packs.
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update: CoB replaced jinx in this build. enjoy

http://youtu.be/yVgGI9QDTGM

update: new vid showcasing 2.02 APS vs 1.67 APS
please excuse the quality and the extra time spent looting :D I was just playing around with the recording software and did not intend this to be shown publicly. but after i looked at it on a 2nd round I thought this would be a good chance to show the practical speed difference w/o having to spend billions. Even in this solo vid you can already see very small traces of computer lag as your APS goes up. the pack sizes are small compared to what you will see in a group and the lag can cause my computer to slow down to 5FPS on a large pack of mobs. at that frame rate, there is little difference between 1APS and 3APS considering the limitation is at the game mechanics not the build mechanics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOLmRUK1oN4

update: thx to heyguyslol's recommendation of looking into open broadcaster software. i finally did a little vid on cota to demo this build. as you can see in the vid, i'm not that good of a player :D and this is the 1st time i'm using this software so quality isn't that great. I will have my friend try making a vid at a later date (he's better dressed and is far more skilled then I am.) i just found a really easy pack to show the numbers not really trying to show the survivability of the build. i'll let my friend show that part since he's a better player :p

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ACJorr3yaA

regarding this video. i've made some recent equipment changes that dropped my crit dmg so you wont see any 2mil+ numbers. however you do some 1.8mil's in there. I'm still deciding if i want to keep my current gear since i really like seeing those 2mil crits so i may revert back.
Edited by Psyclum#1653 on 5/20/2013 11:39 AM PDT
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Thanks man, linked it up to the Group Build Guide at
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/8728183759
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thx for the interest. would like to think the build is fairly self explanatory however will be happy to answer any questions.
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I've been meaning to ask u Psyclum have u actually tested your anti asp build on ghom and compared those results against an asp build to see how much if any of a difference there is in dps?

If you have can you post some videos? I'd like to see the kill times between both along with gear and spec for both tests. Personally nothing against your build but if I were tight on money/gold as I think most of us are, I probably wouldn't invest into your build unless I knew it actually out performed a build using asp and even then it would have to be a pretty significant performance difference to get me to buy in.

I know your pretty hooked on seeing those big numbers on crits but the amount of time its going to take u to get those numbers you probably could have alrdy casted multiple casts with an asp build that either meets those same numbers or quite possibly exceeds them. Honestly I don't know as I have not done any Ghom tests with different gear to compare your build idea against an asp build.

You also have to remember that 0 Dog is not Zombie Bears. While it is better edps to not stack attack speed with Zbears those mechanics are not the same for 0 Dog.

You're basically trying to get players to adopt your build/playstyle based on an unproved theory that they will get higher dps while asking them to spend more gold to re-gear and sacrifice their survivability at the same time.

Another thing even though your pronounced build is primarily geared around playing in a group environment those groups may not always include the crutch of a cm wiz and without that your 0 Dog build is going to be quite vulnerable. It sounds to me that your build actually promotes dying excessively but with a bonus of seeing some high crit numbers. Now I can see some ppl liking this play style, they get hooked on those big numbers and dont care that they are dying to every elite pack or every other elite pack slowing down the progression of the party.

Do I think that makes sense "Hell NO", the way I see it is if you are dying excessively then your build is broken and you need to fix it. But my play style is different I dont like dying but some ppl like yourself obviously dont mind it. Another thing every time you die and have to release and teleport back thats a dps loss and you are not getting BIG crit numbers while your dead, lol.

Personally I nvr buy until I try I think most ppl with half a brain do the same.

So if u can and have time, I highly advise u to make some Ghom videos with both build types close to the same sheet dps and see how much of a difference there is between the two builds.
Edited by heyguyslol#1302 on 5/2/2013 7:24 AM PDT
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Psyclum, please post some videos or stream of you solo, in a group, and soloing Ghom. I'm really curious to see if the damage increase is as much as you say it is.

You've also stated that you die more with this build as opposed to an APS build. How much more is more? I farm MP9 and if I die once I get aggravated. I can't imagine dying multiple times to one elite pack.

You have a lot of suggestions for other 0-dogs and lot of theories, but not a whole lot of actual testing.
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I will try to get a vid up so people can see how this build plays. for some reason I cant get dxtory to work on my machine and I don't think my machine will do well using fraps. I suppose i can try looking into bandicam but i hear the quality is horrible for it. i'm not a streamer so it may take some time for me to get a vid ready. heck i've never even uploaded a vid to youtube before :D my friend may help me with the vid after he's done with his finals though.

also what do you guys use to render/compress the vid? premiere? is there a cheaper/lighter program you guys can recommend that does a good job? my other issue is i'm not sure if my HDD is capable of recording even on 720p instead of 1080p. anything smaller then 720p seems useless for this purpose since you can't really see the numbers and the alternative is to divert some budget for a new SSD just for recording purpose. that definitely wasn't part of my plan since i never considered myself a streamer...

anyway, I will work on trying to get a vid going but it may take some time for me to work out some of these technical issues.
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You can download OBS it has a very good capture option built into the program.

http://www.obsproject.com/
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From my experience, as I improved my zero dog gear, my survivability was greatly increased as my attackspeed increased. For example, when I switched my weapon to one with slightly less dps but a faster attack speed, I could heal through a lot more damage coming in.
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05/02/2013 11:26 AMPosted by Blingazinga
From my experience, as I improved my zero dog gear, my survivability was greatly increased as my attackspeed increased. For example, when I switched my weapon to one with slightly less dps but a faster attack speed, I could heal through a lot more damage coming in.


Yep with more attack speed the more survivability u have. A wise man once told me

"You can't DPS if your Dead", lol and my guide backs up that philosophy.

Although this build *might* produce more dps I personally don't see the point in investing into it if your going to be dying all the time. But some ppl dont mind dying that fits their play style so to speak, for me i hate it lol so I use a fair amount of attack speed to help keep me a live.
Edited by heyguyslol#1302 on 5/2/2013 12:15 PM PDT
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You can download OBS it has a very good capture option built into the program.

http://www.obsproject.com/


tyvm. i will look into this. haven't heard too much about this software but will definitely give it a try
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05/02/2013 11:26 AMPosted by Blingazinga
From my experience, as I improved my zero dog gear, my survivability was greatly increased as my attackspeed increased. For example, when I switched my weapon to one with slightly less dps but a faster attack speed, I could heal through a lot more damage coming in.


absolutely. atk speed gives a huge boost in survivability even from just a mobility point of view. it produces more health globes and if you use for the master, it practically makes you immune to ground effects. what my emphasis is that there comes to a point in our gear evolution where we achieve a certain level of EHP that "additional" survivability is no longer necessary. especially in a group environment where buffs from other group members renders additional survivability redundant. it is at THIS juncture that some of those additional survivability can be converted to DPS stats to further refine your build evolution.

granted this is ALL dependent on the type and quality of the people you are grouped with. but I find that even in public games, you can run into some well played players that you can easily send a friend invite to. a good player recognizes the contributions of other players. if you show that you are "worthy" of the friend request, then putting together a good farming group is not an issue at all.

it's EXTREMELY easy to find a perma freeze wiz since about 75% of all wiz i've seen are perma freeze builds. :) as for getting implosion monks, that's abit tougher since most of the high end monks are bell monks. however, most monks understand the group contribution of implosion and have no problem switching to it if you ask nicely. with 0dog, perma freeze, and implosion, you have the holy trinity of 1.08 and it's actually very easy group to build. 0dog is actually the hardest member to find out of the 3 classes due to overall cost for a MP10 0dog.

considering the advantages for grouping in 1.08. building a trinity group wont be too hard. with that in mind, you can relax the survivability aspect of your build abit and still be fine in a group. the big bang evolution is more or less the "glass cannon" build of 0dog. however it doesn't mean you will die in every fight because piles of gold don't hit back very often :D
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I've been meaning to ask u Psyclum have u actually tested your anti asp build on ghom and compared those results against an asp build to see how much if any of a difference there is in dps?


ghom is a particularly tough mob for this build because of the lack of adds to supply additional heals. this build survives almost entirely on 3% life steal. ghom is doable if i invest more into health globe heals, but making room for that stat has been challenging. my friend has done ghom using this build, however it took 45 seconds because of the kiting needed to survive the farts. in a group where you have a perma freeze wiz, ghom presents no challenge. however solo wise, some kiting is involved to avoid the massive farts.

another troublesome mob is actually the siegebreaker. with the perma reflect damage and large crits from this build, it can be challenging to manage because the amount of heals from this build does not match well against the size of the crits from the build. it's not impossible. just doesn't make this build shine like other situations. generally speaking. this build does very poorly against reflect damage affix. yes that is a HUGE down side to the build since about 60% of all elite's carry reflect affix at mp10 :D but, fortunately if you can find some talented group members, it can be largely mitigated.
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I'm by no means a "great" 0dog player, but Psyclum isn't wrong if the build is meant to be played in a group situation. I know it depends on the group, but any good group will have good synergy, with either increased dps, sustain, or both for all members. To increase asp I would have to lose dps and/or ehp, at least with my limited budget. However I can survive MP10 in my group (deaths occurring from spike damages like maniacs/double molten which wouldn't be affected by higher asp).

Also remember, almost every class has a haste buff to bring to the table, so for elites (only time you really need sustain) your attack speed could be buffed anywhere from 10-60% higher, netting you good asp with higher dps gear than if you geared for 2.3+asp.

While I'm not sure you should limit yourself to a hard1.9asp breakpoint, if survival is there, why not focus on the stats that give the better dps.
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I'm by no means a "great" 0dog player, but Psyclum isn't wrong if the build is meant to be played in a group situation. I know it depends on the group, but any good group will have good synergy, with either increased dps, sustain, or both for all members. To increase asp I would have to lose dps and/or ehp, at least with my limited budget. However I can survive MP10 in my group (deaths occurring from spike damages like maniacs/double molten which wouldn't be affected by higher asp).

Also remember, almost every class has a haste buff to bring to the table, so for elites (only time you really need sustain) your attack speed could be buffed anywhere from 10-60% higher, netting you good asp with higher dps gear than if you geared for 2.3+asp.

While I'm not sure you should limit yourself to a hard1.9asp breakpoint, if survival is there, why not focus on the stats that give the better dps.


I dont think anyone here said Psyclum was wrong but actual proof that a low asp build actually produces more dps than a high asp build remains to be seen. One other thing there are no breakpoints in asp with 0 Dog I don't know where u guys came up with that idea but that is wrong.
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I am still eating horadric-hamburger and i saw this.
I agree with heyguyslol.

What is the definition "breakpoint"?

The breakpoints of aps for 0 dog should be defined if in between 2 attack speed there is no increase in the number of dog sacrifice explosion.

I give you an example here to make it clear.
when you say
"...1.9 APS break point, its benefit over the 1.6 break point..."

Do you mean that after you get over 1.6 aps,
there is no change in number of dog explosions till you get over 1.9?

I don't know if that's true....until someone really come up with a table relating the number of explosions and aps, and it shows that the no. of explosion remain constant over some certain attack speed. If the number of explosions increase continuously as aps increase (which i think that's the case for 0dog), "breakpoint" is underfined
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While I'm not sure you should limit yourself to a hard1.9asp breakpoint, if survival is there, why not focus on the stats that give the better dps.


it's not really a hard 1.9 ASP breakpoint. as i mentioned in the guide, it's not based on any mathematical calculations that the 1.9 is arrived at. it's more of a "natural" limitation my friends and I have found to the 0dog in a group environment. as we know, in a full group, 0dog tend to bog down fairly heavy from the explosions. some people see as low as 8 frames per second(or lower) in a full group with a large pack. this affects the performance of a high APS build much more so then a low APS build. response time from your machine is one of the limitations to a high APS build. another primary reason for low APS is the incremental benefit of high APS tend to hit a diminishing return at around 1.9 considering the tradeoff's you must make to achieve higher APS. this is where you must make hard choices like wearing lacuni or inna vs higher DPS/EHP yellow's.

the 1.9APS break point is a very workable speed (only 0.1 below the traditional 0dog requirement) but it opens the door to a completely different play style and philosophy behind the 0dog. as we improve our gears, we often come across superb equipment that would otherwise be considered unusable if the APS falls below 2.0. this build simply offers a different perspective in how to look at 0dog and allow you to make otherwise "unworkable" builds into viable builds.

at some point in the evolution of your equipment, you will find that the "need" to use for the master no longer applies. especially in a group environment where you can regularly invite a perma freeze wiz to the group. this opens up the door for that bigger crit with provoke the pack. the more you "push the limits" with your build, you will find that the most effective way to improve kill rate is actually to break the self imposed limitation on APS and trading some of those haste for bigger nukes.

this build encourages experimentation because I know everyone have their own style of play. the purpose is to show that as you evolve your equipment, some limitations no longer have to be followed for the build to be viable. staying with a 1.6APS build, I'm able to try out some superb gear that would not be considered viable for a 0dog build. in fact I was tooling around with a 1.3 APS using a spear in my 1st 50 paragon levels :D i can tell you that a 50% weapon damage + 100% crit dmg socketed spear works WONDERS during slam dance :D
Edited by Psyclum#1653 on 5/2/2013 3:34 PM PDT
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You should be able to do Ghom with your build without dying. The point of you doing a Ghom test is to time how long it takes u to down him with say a 100k dps build with low attack speed and a 100k dps build with high attack speed.

If u can acquire the gear to do an accurate test like that it should show the time difference between the two builds and the one that kills faster is the higher edps build. But even if your low asp dps build wins it really needs to win by a significant factor over a high aps dps build in order for it to be worth ppl's time and gold.

If your build wins by say 2-3 secs then imo its not worth it but if your build wins by say 5-7secs then it would be worth it for those who dont mind dying with a reward of seeing larger crits, in the end your actually going to be doing less dmg and critting less because most of the time u will be dead anyways, lol.
Edited by heyguyslol#1302 on 5/2/2013 5:53 PM PDT
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If u can acquire the gear to do an accurate test like that it should show the time difference between the two builds and the one that kills faster is the higher edps build. But even if your low asp dps build wins it really needs to win by a significant factor over a high aps dps build in order for it to be worth ppl's time and gold.


that's the thing. i will likely never be able to make a vid like that since i have a hard enough time affording this build :D I doubt I'll ever be able to afford 2 0dog builds (arguably the most expensive build in D3) if i was a streamer and are getting paid, maybe that would be justified, but that's not something that's likely to happen in the near future :D as of right now, i'm neither dressed enough nor skilled enough to try ghom on my own. so i will ask my friend to make a vid on that. it wont break any world records since i've already explained why this build is at a disadvantage for that fight and in the grand scheme of things doesn't matter much when it comes to relevance towards a "group oriented" build.

this is simply to show that sub 2.0 APS is in fact mp10 viable and a practical build for those who may have found excellent gear along the way but doesn't fit into the traditional APS 0dog build.

PS. thx to your suggestion, I checked out the open broadcaster software and was able to make a very basic vid on this build

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ACJorr3yaA

I will make future video updates on the 3rd post of this thread whenever my friend has time to make some vids.
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